Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[mbrownn]

I think I see what your saying. Because the field windings produce a weaker magnetic field due to less current, the armature sees less opposition therefore it spins faster and creates a larger bemf?
Do the field windings create an opposite field when the supply is disconnected?
Sorry I'm not very good at expressing my thoughts.
Not sure if you saw my post ,since we posted at the same time.
Back 3 or 4 about the old generator?
Thanks artv

With Universal type motors there are many different ways to wire them up, I think I have tried them all. Yes you can power the armature alone and the motor will still run. In this situation you can use both field coils as generator coils, but be careful not to exceed the continuous rated amps in the armature or it will burn up. I have never had an armature self destruct with overspeed because I switch off before that happens. I would recommend that people experiment with these motors with all the different combinations of wiring. There is so much to be learned from them.

[mbrownn]

However the motor will have no torque

There is no contradiction here with what I said, it depends on the position of the brushes.

Sorry crifta for adding to your thread, I get quite excited with what you can do with this type of motor

[citfta]

Hi mbrownn,

Glad to have your contributions. That is what this thread is about. So all ideas are welcome here. It is for sharing ideas and thoughts. Sometimes I type faster than I think and vice versa. You may catch my mistakes and that is OK too.

If I recall correctly you were doing a lot of research on the Lockridge device. If that is correct, where you ever able to get that going or come close to getting it going? I still would like to do some work on that when I get some of my other projects finished.

I just found a very old, very big alternator made by Delco that has the three phases brought out to the outside so it must have been used with a separate set of diodes. I am not sure if it is of any real use but I am going to hold onto it in case I find some way to use it.

Later,
Carroll

[mbrownn]

Hi mbrownn,
Sometimes I type faster than I think and vice versa.

Me too

If I recall correctly you were doing a lot of research on the Lockridge device. If that is correct, where you ever able to get that going or come close to getting it going? I still would like to do some work on that when I get some of my other projects finished.

Im still working on it when funds allow.

Briefly I had it motoring and generating on DC, AC and pulsed DC. Nothing overunity, but in some circumstances it was getting quite efficient. I posted about the DC operation of it here without referring to the lockridge device http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...eresting+motor

On AC I was able to get it to run but it was drawing huge currents and the output field coils had both an AC and a DC component. Obviously the AC effectively cancelled its self out.

After I modified the armature, I fed it DC and the pulsing was done by the armature. This resulted in both AC and DC in the output again, and this is something I am working on. I was able to recover some energy from the armature in the form of inductive kickback too. The exact wiring (series/ Parallel) of the four field coils I am not yet sure of. I need to get more figures from tests and replications to eliminate the possibilities.

One of the three possible solutions to the AC output is the trifilar coil which I haven’t attached to the device as yet. There are also several possible functions of that coil too, so that remains a work in progress.

What I have learned is as follows:-

The geometry of the layout of the coils appears to be exactly as shown in PL's video, No symmetry.
One of the field coils is definitely the output and is at 90 degrees to one powered field coil.
The output coil has many more turns than the powered field coil, but the ratio remains undetermined.
The remaining two field coils may also be of the same ratio but their action is unlikely to be as a motor or generator. Its a transformer. This may also have something to do with sorting out the AC problem in the output coil, Think Magamps.

Let me know if you want to know more.

I just found a very old, very big alternator made by Delco that has the three phases brought out to the outside so it must have been used with a separate set of diodes. I am not sure if it is of any real use but I am going to hold onto it in case I find some way to use it.

Later,
Carroll

Not sure that would work, It needs to be the type of VW generater that was mentioned or a starter/generator like you get on tractors or golf carts, at a push a four pole starter motor, which is what I have been using.

I can say with confidence that the Lockridge device wasn't a hoax as reported by some, there are too many things that have come together and worked just from the pictures shown of it.

[citfta]

I didn't mean to imply I thought it would work for a Lockridge device. I just thought it was an interesting find. It sounds like you have made some good progress on the Lockridge device. Good luck on that. I will look at the link you posted and check it out.

Later,
Carroll

[padova]

greetings

Citfa and company, what's yours game?
You so blindly wrote all kind of rubbish about DC asymmetric motors,
and yet here you are, in this forum. It seems that it is too late for you,
considering your ages, to change your mind, nothing wrong whit that, just add to that some respect
towards true researchers nothing more.
With these conventional BS know you're not going anywhere.
It's like you're stuck in the mud.
I can only figure it out what a bunch of **strubating monkeys can learn something from you.

I'm steel newbie here, but you people, in a few posts here are so offensive.
Even worse than one who just copied someones work and started new thread.
So funny.

I couldn't care less, anyway I'm not into motors. so it's just small observation, and it's just a part of that, the rest you figure out by yourself.

[mbrownn]

greetings

Citfa and company, what's yours game?
You so blindly wrote all kind of rubbish about DC asymmetric motors,
and yet here you are, in this forum. It seems that it is too late for you,
considering your ages, to change your mind, nothing wrong whit that, just add to that some respect
towards true researchers nothing more.
With these conventional BS know you're not going anywhere.
It's like you're stuck in the mud.
I can only figure it out what a bunch of **strubating monkeys can learn something from you.

I'm steel newbie here, but you people, in a few posts here are so offensive.
Even worse than one who just copied someones work and started new thread.
So funny.

I couldn't care less, anyway I'm not into motors. so it's just small observation, and it's just a part of that, the rest you figure out by yourself.

(snip) I cut my 5 minute rant as it would only pour fuel on the fire.

On asymmetry in motors, I dont understand what all the fuss is about, for any motor to work there has to be asymmetry in one form or another or the motor would not turn. I understand the use of physical asymmetry and some of the advantages it gives, thankfully the asymmetry I use seems to be sufficiently different as to not bother people too much.

@ padova, Im not attacking you or anyone else on this forum but its not good to use personal attacks on an open forum.

[shylo]

Hi Carroll, I was searching the web but didn't find how do you know the value of the bemf?
A simple video the guy said as soon as power is applied to a dc motor the windings generate opposite to the applied, subtract the opposite from the applied and that is how much voltage the motor is actually using to run.
100 volts applied , 85 volts opposite, so 15 volts going through the windings, and since the resistance of the windings doesn't change ,the current draw goes down.
But this is a waste of 85 volts.
Can a diode not block the bemf? But where would it go?
Also I seen a guy that said in generators the bemf is only produced when you attach a load. The coil creates its' own field when loaded that opposes rotation.
So why not just wind 2 coils CW & CCW draw off each coil at the same time so the one coil will oppose in one direction and the other in the opposite direction cancelling both oppositions?
Thanks for your help.
artv

[citfta]

Hi artv,

Well there probably isn't any easy way to measure the BEMF or calculate it. You could measure the current going to the armature and then if you knew the resistance you could figure the voltage drop across the armature and subtract that from the applied voltage to get the value for the BEMF. But the thing to remember is this value is going to change any time the load changes or the speed changes. So there really is no need to try and figure it out.

The video where the guy says as soon as power is applied the BEMF is generated is incorrect. The BEMF is only generated when the armature is turning. So for a short while the BEMF is not even there and only gets to full strength after the motor is up to full speed.

Your question about wasting 85 volts is a good one. Let me try to explain it this way. The BEMF acts like a governor to control the motor speed. Now let's say your car has a 500 HP engine in it. Now in normal driving you are the governor. You control how much of that HP is being used at any one time. Now let's say it takes 50 HP to move your car on level ground at 45 mph. Are we wasting 450 HP?

Now to your question about BEMF and a generator. First thing is most electricians refer to the loading of a generator as the Lenz effect and not BEMF. I know it is called BEMF on this forum and on Youtube a lot. But there is a lot of garbage both places. Now what would happen if we wind one coil clockwise and one counter-clockwise and install them in a generator. They will both produce drag on the generator when connected to a load. The only difference will be one will have the opposite polarity of the other. But the drag will still be the same.

I am enjoying our discussions and if you have any more questions just ask.

Later,
Carroll

[citfta]

Hello padova,

By your own admission you are new to this forum. And your small number of posts confirms this. So you really don't know anything about me or anyone else on this forum. I am on this forum because I have seen with my own eyes things that didn't seem possible. I have been actively involved in building and working on many projects on this forum. So you are mistaken about me being stuck in the mud.

Now you have accused me of writing all kinds of rubbish about DC asymmetrical motors. Where did I write that? Show me one quote where I wrote rubbish about DC asymmetrical motors. You say you are not into motors so how do you know what is rubbish and what isn't. You are correct in your assumption that I have a problem with Dufo. I don't have a problem with his motor. My problem with him is because of his attitude and his constant belittling of anyone that doesn't bow down to him.

The burden is now on you. Show me where I wrote any rubbish about DC asymmetrical motors.

greetings

Citfa and company, what's yours game?
You so blindly wrote all kind of rubbish about DC asymmetric motors,
and yet here you are, in this forum. It seems that it is too late for you,
considering your ages, to change your mind, nothing wrong whit that, just add to that some respect
towards true researchers nothing more.
With these conventional BS know you're not going anywhere.
It's like you're stuck in the mud.
I can only figure it out what a bunch of **strubating monkeys can learn something from you.

I'm steel newbie here, but you people, in a few posts here are so offensive.
Even worse than one who just copied someones work and started new thread.
So funny.

I couldn't care less, anyway I'm not into motors. so it's just small observation, and it's just a part of that, the rest you figure out by yourself.

Carroll

By the way I don't have any "ages" I have only one. I am 69 years old and have worked on motors for over 50 years.

[shylo]

Hi Carroll, If a coil produces bemf ,...It will have a polarity,
Why can't you rebound waves off each other?
I still can't see how any of this is possible.
Bemf is opposing ,can it be used to drive?
Why not have 2 or 200 coils ,the loses , where are they?
Any lose is a form of magnetic interaction, which produces power, if used the right way?
artv

[citfta]

Hi artv,

A coil be itself cannot produce BEMF. A coil moving through a magnetic field will have induced in the coil a voltage that is proportional to the strength of the magnetic field, the speed of the coil moving, and the number of turns of the coil. Now how are we making the coil move through the magnetic field? If we are driving the coils with some mechanical force like the way a generator works then we are producing a voltage that can be used to power an electrical load of some kind. As soon as we start to use that power the voltage induced will cause current to flow. The flow of current will in turn now create a magnetic field that is attracted to the one the coil is moving through. This is known as the Lenz effect. I know on this forum and on Youtube it is sometimes called BEMF but that is not correct because it is not opposing anything except the physical movement of the coil.

If you can, find a small DC motor like a blower motor from a car or something similar you can mount a handle on the shaft or some way to spin the motor by hand. Now give the motor a good spin. Crank it up as fast as you can get it to go. You will see it is easy to do. Now connect a small bulb like a taillight bulb to the two leads of the motor. Now crank or spin it again and see the difference. This is the Lenz effect. It takes some physical force to move the current through the load.

Now let's get back to our coil moving in a magnetic field. Instead of turning the shaft with the coils with an outside force let's put some current through the coil. When we put current through the coil it now produces it's own magnetic field that will either be attracted to or repelled away from the existing magnetic field. In a DC motor the commutator and brushes allow us to keep moving that field from one coil of the armature to another and thus we are able to keep the armature turning. So now what happens we have the coil moving through a magnetic field just like in the generator. Except now we are using the coils themselves to create a field that is causing the movement. Because the coils are moving through the magnetic field they are also having a voltage induced back into them from the magnetic field. Because of the laws of magnetic force work in a certain way this induced voltage is always opposite the applied voltage. This is what BEMF really is. It can never be stronger than the applied voltage unless the load starts driving the motor instead of the motor powering the load.

In a lot of the electric vehicles there is a circuit that allows us to use the BEMF to recharge the battery when the vehicle is going downhill. Technically it is not really BEMF because we are actually just turning the motor into a generator when going downhill. This is called regenerative braking.

I do not understand what you mean by your last two statements. What are you asking about 2 or 200 coils? And your statement that any loss is a form of magnetic interaction I don't understand either so you will have to explain what you meant or what you were asking.

Later,
Carroll

[padova]

Hello padova,

By your own admission you are new to this forum. And your small number of posts confirms this. So you really don't know anything about me or anyone else on this forum. I am on this forum because I have seen with my own eyes things that didn't seem possible. I have been actively involved in building and working on many projects on this forum. So you are mistaken about me being stuck in the mud.

Now you have accused me of writing all kinds of rubbish about DC asymmetrical motors. Where did I write that? Show me one quote where I wrote rubbish about DC asymmetrical motors. You say you are not into motors so how do you know what is rubbish and what isn't. You are correct in your assumption that I have a problem with Dufo. I don't have a problem with his motor. My problem with him is because of his attitude and his constant belittling of anyone that doesn't bow down to him.

The burden is now on you. Show me where I wrote any rubbish about DC asymmetrical motors.




Carroll

By the way I don't have any "ages" I have only one. I am 69 years old and have worked on motors for over 50 years.

There is no any burden. You know what you wrote. I won't discuss with you. You and your company, please stay away from me, as far as possible. As long as you are saying that the BEMF actually is a good thing for the motor.

regards

[Matthew Jones]

There is no any burden. You know what you wrote. I won't discuss with you. You and your company, please stay away from me, as far as possible. As long as you are saying that the BEMF actually is a good thing for the motor.

regards

Where do these idiots come from? "Stay away from me..." Then go away moron, until you have functional understanding of what is being discussed.
Get an education then contribute.

Matt

[mbrownn]

Hi Carroll, If a coil produces bemf ,...It will have a polarity,
Why can't you rebound waves off each other?
I still can't see how any of this is possible.

To understand BEMF you must think of it as purely a voltage with no current, because of this it has no magnetic effects. Most motors have significant amounts of BEMF and it is used as a way to control motor speed. This is done by it opposing the applied current so if you apply 12v and have 6v of BEMF your effective voltage is only 6v. The current that flows through the motor is what you would get with 6v under ohms law but you are consuming power at 12v.

Remember motor torque is based on current and the number of turns, voltage not being part of this simple equation. Yes voltage is inevitable because you have to overcome resistance.

If you have an open circuit generator coil it causes no drag on the armature, the same can be said of a coil that is blocked by a diode or a higher voltage in the opposite direction. This way BEMF does not cause any extra drag on the armature.

If your motor has BEMF of 6v, you can use a generator coil that generates 6v set to oppose the back emf to cancel it out but it does not solve the problem unless the applied voltage and current passes through it, but now you have the drag instead of BEMF. This is why it is a problem. I have seen some experiments where it appears they have overcome this problem, but I cant confirm it as I have never done it myself.

My approach was to reduce the BEMF in the motor. This means keeping the moving armature coil away from the powered field coil. The problem here is that in modern armatures all the coils on the armature are carrying current and so this cannot be done with a modern armature. On the drawings that show how motors work they show a simplified single coil and it can be done with such a single coil armature. If you build an armature with multiple coils that are not connected to each other, it can also be done provided only one coil is powered at a time and the rest are open circuit.

How did I reduce BEMF?

http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...tor-image1-jpg

The orange is the powered field coil, note how it is in the middle of the pole face of the armature and set in attraction to the armature. Note also the coil has been moved 90 degrees to the normal position, this is the asymmetry I use. As there is little movement or bunching of flux at this point there is also little BEMF here. The other field coil shown is open circuit and all other coils and shoes have been removed.

At the 3'oclock position the magnetic return path is where bunching and movement of flux occurs thus causing BEMF in the armature, but if we assume the armature has the same number of turns as the field coil we would expect that the overall BEMF would be half that of a conventional motor. In reality it is less because there is no cutting of lines of flux as in a conventional motor.

Now if we place a coil at the 3'oclock position we can generate voltage and current in exactly the same way as BEMF is produced. Its almost like we have taken the BEMF from the powered field coil and used it as an output.

This is my solution, not perfect I admit, but it does work. On 12v the current would have burned out the motor so I had to reduce it to 3 or 4 volts

Bemf is opposing ,can it be used to drive?

If the number of turns on the output coil are sufficient you can feed the output coil to the input thus reducing the current needed from the supply. It wont eliminate the need for a supply but will reduce it increasing overall efficiency, you can also put a second load in series as the windings of the motor cause little voltage drop, but as you increase the voltage of the output coil you will reduce the current and so the efficiency gain.

Why not have 2 or 200 coils ,the loses , where are they?
Any lose is a form of magnetic interaction, which produces power, if used the right way?
artv

You can have as many coils as you like but each has to be on a separate magnetic circuit for this motor to work. As it started as a four pole motor it makes sense to do the same with the other half of the case, but you have to separate the two halves magnetically to prevent a magnetic short circuit.

The iron losses are only in the armature as this is a DC motor, copper losses follow ohms law. As the iron losses are used up in the motoring calculations, they cant be used in the generator calculations, the same goes for friction and drag so you would expect the generation to be very efficient. This is not the case, In fact the losses are shared between the motoring and the generation making each a little more efficient than if you had a generator bolted to a motor.

You also have torque available from the motor to do work but this is inversely proportional to the generated output.

The generated output efficiency increases with electrical load on the generator, as increased electrical load would draw more current through the motor windings if the output coil is placed in series with the motor coils.

This device would not be an answer to our electrical needs but would be a great advancement on the automotive motors as it is much more efficient.

Just a few things to think about and I hope it helps you understand how you can change things in these types of motor.