Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[citfta]

Thanks mbrownn for an excellent post. I am learning a few things from you. Please continue any time you want to add to this thread. No matter how much we know we can always learn more and I appreciate your time spent writing up your posts. I did go back and read the thread about a different kind of motor. It was very interesting. I have started looking for a suitable motor to do some experimenting with. That needs to be a 4 pole shunt wound motor, correct? Those appear to be a little bit hard to find but I am pretty good at finding surplus and other stuff on the internet so I will keep looking.

Thanks again.
Carroll

[citfta]

Hi again padova,

I am really sorry about your reading disability. You apparently can't find where I wrote any rubbish about the asymmetrical motor. So you pretend you don't want to discuss it. Then why did you come to my thread and start this discussion? Since you can't back up your false claims then your posts have no validity. You might have to look up that big word.

As for staying away from you. What a totally dumb thing to post. YOU came here. I didn't hunt you up and try to give you a hard time. If you don't like what I post then YOU go away. I was a member of this forum long before Dufo showed up and will probably be here long after he is gone.

Because you have proven you can't carry on an intelligent discussion anything you post in this thread from now on will be ignored. Go back and play with your building blocks and leave real discussions for the grownups.

There is no any burden. You know what you wrote. I won't discuss with you. You and your company, please stay away from me, as far as possible. As long as you are saying that the BEMF actually is a good thing for the motor.

regards

Carroll

[shylo]

Hi Mbrown, I don't understand your drawing. The orange is the field coil but it is turned slightly to the left so the right hand leg is closer to the armature?
Why would the lines of flux travel 3 pole faces away, is that supposed to represent a coil wound on the armature?
Without any coils on the armature the flux lines produced by the field coil would go straight into the iron core from one leg of the coil , and return to the other leg of the coil?
If the rules are right it should simply be a matter of putting 2 coils in opposition on the same amount of pole faces ,thus they will cancel each others drag , you still need a way to drive it though.

Carroll, If you have 2 generating coils but only load 1 at a time only 1 is causing drag, the other can be motored by a seperate supply, causing an opposition. Can you not use the 2 oppositions to counter each other?
artv

[Midaztouch]

greetings

Citfa and company, what's yours game?
You so blindly wrote all kind of rubbish about DC asymmetric motors,
and yet here you are, in this forum. It seems that it is too late for you,
considering your ages, to change your mind, nothing wrong whit that, just add to that some respect
towards true researchers nothing more.
With these conventional BS know you're not going anywhere.
It's like you're stuck in the mud.
I can only figure it out what a bunch of **strubating monkeys can learn something from you.

I'm steel newbie here, but you people, in a few posts here are so offensive.
Even worse than one who just copied someones work and started new thread.
So funny.

.

Padova

IC we have a newbie here. I was one too you know, a baby as a matter of fact. I bought one of those Imperial motors almost 2 yrs ago for my electric EV build. I followed that thread DAILY and took notes... For over 2yrs.

I paid for my motor with shipping to Japan. I'm going to use it anyway I see fit. And as you can see, I'm not doing it the way they do it... You should be asking yourself why is there Only 1 person working on the 5 pole... that's it, one person!?
No other motor, just the tiny irregular useless 5pole only! And now he's finished. WTF

Over 20 members have that huge expensive 28pole 45lbs Imperial motor! Lately they are starting to show up! They want answers and growing inpatient!

If you had a huge thread and people spent REAL money, Some members are in the hole for $$$$$! Would you be busting you butt to make things right and prove your work!? ... Think about it!

I'm a small time builder who wanted to build an electric motor for my motorcycle. I just got tired of the runaround and same old info a different day. AKA he is stalling!.. I'm nobody special but I'm trying to work with what I paid for. And I'm doing what I thought was interesting and new.

Don't open your mouth about personal things you know nothing about!... After 3yrs, still on the 5pole and making the same CAD a different way! #SMH

Your in for a rude awakening
Midaz

[citfta]

Hi artv,

Yes you can drive one coil and take power from another coil. And as you posted they will oppose each other. This is basically what mbrownn is working on. The problem is how to overcome the losses so as to be able to use the power coming from the coil without causing the power driving the other coil from going too high. According to some pretty well established evidence the Lockridge device was able to supply enough power to run itself and also light 300 watts of bulbs. (I think I remember that right. mbrownn can correct me if I am wrong on that). You have to remember that as you take power from the one coil the current has to go up on the driving coil to produce the extra torque to keep the armature turning under the extra load.

You really need to get you some small motors so you can play around with using one as a generator and the other as the motor driving the generator. If you can find a Radio Shack near you they are closing a bunch of stores and you can get a lot of stuff there really cheap. I picked up several transformers the other day for the price of one of them. Actually working with them will help you understand them much better.

Later,
Carroll

[mbrownn]

That needs to be a 4 pole shunt wound motor, correct?

Ideally you use the old VW generator, but a four pole brushed motor is a start. Ideally you want an even number of slots in the armature and devisable by 5. The commutator would ideally have double the number of segments as slots. series wound makes things a little easier than shunt. but removable pole shoes are important.

Hi Mbrown, I don't understand your drawing. The orange is the field coil but it is turned slightly to the left so the right hand leg is closer to the armature?
Why would the lines of flux travel 3 pole faces away, is that supposed to represent a coil wound on the armature?
Without any coils on the armature the flux lines produced by the field coil would go straight into the iron core from one leg of the coil , and return to the other leg of the coil?
If the rules are right it should simply be a matter of putting 2 coils in opposition on the same amount of pole faces ,thus they will cancel each others drag , you still need a way to drive it though.

Yes the pink parts are the armature winding that is in attraction with the orange field winding, but I dont know what you mean by turned to the left. The flux moves from the field coil, via attraction to the armature, and through the armature coil, then it takes the easiest route back to the opposite pole of the field coil. As the two active coils are wound in series and in attraction the magnetic attraction to the unpowered shoe is strong, and the flux pulls the armature round in a clockwise direction. Using this method keeps all the flux in the iron which is important for efficiency in this motor.

Just using two coils and this 90 degree arrangement dramatically reduces BEMF in the powered field coil, and I suspect a little in the armature. Because of this the need to oppose the BEMF with an additional coil is dramatically reduced. The BEMF could be reduced further but ill leave that for another time.

You could actually replace the field coil with a permanent magnet but I haven't tested that.

If you use a standard armature, it still works but not as well and has more BEMF.

It is the acute angle that the flux is bent around, that wants to take a straighter path, that actually gives the torque in my opinion, and attraction is the mode that allows that to happen.

This is only a part of how I interpret the Lockridge to work. The fact that we do not know how the original lockridge device worked, and as it is so different to anything I have seen anyone else's posts, I consider it my own work. I did this by reverse engineering the device, staying as close as is possible to what is known about it. As a result I no longer refer to it as "the lockridge" but as a motor/generator device. It is a work in progress and I don't have all the answers, but I am happy to share what I do know.

If anyone wants to disagree with my interpretation thats fine, but please stay polite. I think if we want to discuss it in greater detail we should do it on the Interesting Motor thread where I posted the most information.

[mbrownn]

Hi artv,

Yes you can drive one coil and take power from another coil. And as you posted they will oppose each other. This is basically what mbrownn is working on. The problem is how to overcome the losses so as to be able to use the power coming from the coil without causing the power driving the other coil from going too high. According to some pretty well established evidence the Lockridge device was able to supply enough power to run itself and also light 300 watts of bulbs. (I think I remember that right. mbrownn can correct me if I am wrong on that). You have to remember that as you take power from the one coil the current has to go up on the driving coil to produce the extra torque to keep the armature turning under the extra load.

You really need to get you some small motors so you can play around with using one as a generator and the other as the motor driving the generator. If you can find a Radio Shack near you they are closing a bunch of stores and you can get a lot of stuff there really cheap. I picked up several transformers the other day for the price of one of them. Actually working with them will help you understand them much better.

Later,
Carroll

The lockrigde is more than what I have posted here, but I think it is important to work with this basic design for a while to see what it can do.

The high current draw that you see as a problem isn’t really a problem for two reasons. The first being It is not supplied directly from a voltage source and secondly when this motor is pulsing, that limits the current, but that is a discussion for later on. Yes the original appeared to have an excess of 300w.

I cant stress how important it is to get your head around this first part. Playing around with an old starter motor is a good way to start. don't spend money if you don't have to.

[citfta]

Hi again mbrownn,

When I wrote about the higher current draw I was referring to a motor/generator built in the "traditional" way. We had several of them where I worked. They were used mostly to convert from 120 volts 60 Hz to 120 volts at 400 Hz for testing military equipment.

When it comes to the Lockridge or any research and testing on it I consider you much more qualified than myself or actually anyone else on this forum. I believe you are the only person on here actively involved in working on it.

I remember that back in the late 1960s and into the early 1970s the Cub Cadet riding lawn and garden type tractors had a Koehler engine on them that had a combination starter/generator. Power from the battery was applied to the motor and it turned the engine over through a belt around the flywheel. After the engine started then the motor/generator became the generator for recharging the battery. I don't remember if those were two or four poles. If they were four poles they would probably make a good candidate for working with. I will have to see if my dad might still have one of those lying around somewhere. (He never gets rid of anything. )

Any time you want to move this discussion over to your thread that will be fine. Although this thread is for discussing almost anything of a technical nature.

Thanks again for your input.
Carroll

[Turion]

For anyone interested
Starter-Generators, Small Engine,

Dave

[citfta]

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the link. I wish they gave more information about them. They don't really say whether they are two pole or four pole. Some of them look to have four screws in the case like they would have if it was a four pole motor/generator. I think I have a line on one of the Cub Cadet ones for free. If I get it then I will know if it is four pole or not. The nice thing about these is since they are used as generators also they have good bearings in them instead of bushings like a car starter motor. The one for a club car is the one that looks like it might have 4 screws in the case to hold four poles. But it is over $200. A little out of my price range right now. But thanks to your link I now know what to look for and may be able to find some junk ones from a golf cart repair place.

Later,
Carroll

[Turion]

I've contacted them to find out which are two pole and which are four pole, but so far I haven't heard back. I figured if nothing else it would give us some part numbers to search on eBay for a good deal. Here's one: Cub Cadet Tractor Starter Generator Off A 100 | eBay

New Starter Generator Club Car FE290 FE350 DS Series 1996 2006 1018294 01 | eBay

Dave

[citfta]

Wow Dave,

Another good find. You can clearly see in the second picture that there are screws through the case every 90 degrees so that would be for mounting four poles. Plus it looks like there are spaces for four brushes. And the price is half the cost of the other place. Thanks for the good links. Maybe mbrownn can give us his opinion about this one. But with the end caps being non-magnetic and four poles it should be just what we need it I understood all he has posted about the proper type of motor.

Carroll

[Turion]

And they have more than 10 available at that price, so a few of us could pick one up to mess with. If it appears to be the right unit.

[shylo]

Hi folks , I got this generator at a yard sale 5 bucks.
The field coils are connected in series I think.
The armature has 28 comm section and 14 core faces, is that what you refer to when you say "shoe"?
Also the case serves as a common ground??
This is the generator I was asking about earlier, I'm not sure how to connect it?
The brushes seem to be grounded right to the lid, but one brush has a layer of insulation between it and the lid , where the other doesn't?

Carroll, I've been working with motors and generators for awhile now, even wound a few.
The rules or laws don't always seem to conform, never got more out than in but maybe get it so close that even on a cloudy day a solar panel pick up the slack.
I attached a photo is this an old school generator?
artv

[citfta]

Hi artv,

If I understood mbrownn what he was calling a shoe is the center of the field winding. He can correct me if I misunderstood what he meant. Your generator has two field windings so it would be considered a two pole generator. He gave a link in one of his earlier posts on this thread where he goes into some pretty good detail about what he has been doing. I have read through it once and need to read it a couple of more times to get as much as I can from it. As far as I know he has spent more time and effort on understanding the Lockridge device than anyone else on this forum. His method of sending the generated current back through the driving armature is pretty slick. I am still working on understanding just how he did that. His knowledge of how to use BEMF to an advantage is well beyond my understanding of it. I am looking forward to learning more from him.

Carroll