Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[citfta]

Hi Dave,

I just watched the video by Hitby and I did hear the generator slow down when it took the load. So it is not a lenz free generator but still interesting in the way the coils are arranged. I have seen the pictures someone posted of the coils so you don't have to take yours apart for my benefit. You are most welcome about me finding the rotor. I am just glad you were able to get it. I just happened to be looking to see if there were any generators near me and saw that rotor and thought you or Matt might be interested. Glad it made you happy.

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Howdy Carroll, David,

I found a mcculloch repair manual on ebay and ordered it the other day. Once I get it I'll see about scanning it and sharing with you guys. I also saw the generators on ebay but they were local pickup only, and I haven't the funds to pay for such anyways.

I would note here that I saw an interesting effect with the morin drain pump setup using a 50va trafo inverted to how it would normally connect up to the drain pump output leads. Normally it would have the 120vac side connected to the drain pump motor, but it was suggested to put the 24vac side on the 120vac output leads from the drain pump... doing this the input was about 2.4amps at 12vdc on the brushed motor.

What was curious was in Shorting the HV side of the 50va trafo while the drain pump was running would let the drain pump speed up and the input to the motor would drop to 1.7amps... just on Shorting the output leads of the reverse connected 50va trafo attached directly to the drain pump motor.

I haven't done anything further with it. I figured I'd note it here, I had noted it on the morin thread but given the hostility and aimlessness there, deleted it.

It might be interesting to try and charge up a capacitor to see if the charging of the capacity also still lets the input Amps drop when the output is loaded by an empty cap collecting charge eh?

Anyways if either of you built the drain pump setup, and have a 50va 120v to 24vac center tapped trafo from radio shack or the like you should be able to see this effect on your own bench. (to me its Thanes effect in a different context, from his bitoroid work.)

Figured I'd share, Cheers.
Gene

I have spent the last few days looking at the Gerard Morin claims. While I am unconvinced that he has anything of value there I did learn something I think may be worth persuing. I learned about the Mccullock generator. If you are not familiar with it you can find some interesting information in that thread.

What is interesting is the generator windings appear to have no core and also it looks like the magnets move parallel to the windings instead of across the windings like most generators do. I spotted a rotor on ebay the other evening and Turion (Dave) was able to get it. So he is waiting on it to get to him. Does anyone on here have a good working knowledge of how that generator works? Dave already has a couple of complete generators he is reluctant to try and tear apart. However he has told me as far as he can tell there doesn't seem to be any drag between the rotor which has the magnets and the coil when under no load. He has yet to see what happens when the generator is loaded. I have worked on many kinds of generators but I have never seen one made like this one.

Later,
Carroll

[blackchisel97]

Pigs

Hi guys,

Could someone enlighten me what's so special about the pigs (pole transformers). I've watch Gerard videos (which wasn't easy ) and came to couple conclusions which I'll keep it to myself, so I don't offend anyone.
If this is indeed valid, it should be possible to replicate on much safer and smaller scale, such as flyback transformers. I've seen one which burst in flames when it's resonance has been unintentionally hit. These little guys can handle >300W. I would hate to be anywhere near pole pig when such happens.
I was also thinking about squared wave and possible connection to the Fourier decomposition series, where number of harmonics determines the rise and fall delays as well as the "squareness" of resulting wave. In theory, when we overlap more than 7 harmonics (sine) our signal will look like a square.
There is also another phenomenon which comes to mind - extracted harmonics which can be use to amplify resonant effect.
Just some of my thoughts. I maybe wrong and perhaps some pigs do fly.

Regards
V

[citfta]

Hello Gene,

I have only been involved in that project to the point of trying to help Bro Mikey see the errors of his ways which was a lost cause and also just happened to see the rotor I told Dave about. I don't have one of those pump motors to play with but it sounds like it might be worth investing in. The tranformer shorting sounds like the coil shorting effect that several others have reported about before. I have never heard of anyone trying it with a transfomer though. That is interesting. I guess I am going to have to look into that. I may have enough stuff already that can be rigged up to try that without that pump motor. Then I could always get a pump motor to see if the effect is different. Thanks for the info. And you are always welcome to contribute to this thread in any way you see fit to share.

Later,
Carroll

[citfta]

Hi V,

I am also in the dark about the real reason behind using something that large for such a small load. I only know what I think I got from Gerard's mumbo jumbo. If (a very big if) I understood what he was saying it is the large mass of those transfomers that helped collect the extra energy from the environment. I never did figure out the reason for first feeding a larger one and then feeding that power to a smaller one. As I said in a post on that thread the whole thing sounded too much like a Don Smith video where all we really hear is someone making claims and using words they apparently don't know the meaning of.

If anyone else understands why the pole pigs were used please share. I may easily be mistaken about their purpose.

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Yeah that interaction with bromikey was a little frustrating huh. You handled it better than I.

I'll see if I can throw a video up of the effect so at least its noted so others can replicate if they want.

Heres that Vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIzOOkNPXFE

Note that I said it backed up a volt, but it didn't, turns out if I turn disconnect the input volts to the DC drive motor, the voltage sits at ~16vdc... so its sagging to 12vdc to drive the whole thing at the 2.5amps or so. So really its only showing a gain on the input volts that is still Under the input volts if the source is disconnected from the drive motor. No Real Gain.

The gain woulda been real if it was disconnected and still showed 12vdc on the meter... then it would have gone up over what the source was providing, which that second test proved out Wasn't the case.

I don't know that it needs the drain pump motor so much as it needs a variable frequency input at about 120vac into whatever transformer to see how it affects the transformer. The effect noted in the context in the video was noted to happen around 147hz or so, a little over double mains freqs...

I didn't then play with the input to get it set at different RPMs to then plot out the curves for the input/output affectations. That might show if the effect noted is tied to particular frequencies being breached, at the applied voltage levels. Of course if that drain pump motor is Unloaded at that 147hz it shows a sine of upwards 400-500vac...

Something thats not noted much is that the Amplitude of a sinewave on the coil next to a permanent magnet rotor is DIRECTLY affected by the RPM of said perm magnet rotor.

When one first spins up a perm mag rotor with a scope on a coil thats isolated from the drive circuit, one sees the line slowly take on a squiggle and as it squiggles up it starts to compress, meaning the up and downs start to scrunch up closer together, that being the resultant Frequency being caused by the rate at which the perm mags are passing the solenoid.

The Faster a perm mag rotor can be made to spin, the higher the Voltage signal will be that results.

Anyways lemme know if I can be helpful.
Cheers!
Gene

Hello Gene,

I have only been involved in that project to the point of trying to help Bro Mikey see the errors of his ways which was a lost cause and also just happened to see the rotor I told Dave about. I don't have one of those pump motors to play with but it sounds like it might be worth investing in. The tranformer shorting sounds like the coil shorting effect that several others have reported about before. I have never heard of anyone trying it with a transfomer though. That is interesting. I guess I am going to have to look into that. I may have enough stuff already that can be rigged up to try that without that pump motor. Then I could always get a pump motor to see if the effect is different. Thanks for the info. And you are always welcome to contribute to this thread in any way you see fit to share.

Later,
Carroll

[shylo]

Interruption

Hi all, sorry to interrupt, but a question if I may?
What would be the best coil design around a track that has a magnet traveling on it? The track is made of steel. The magnet is a big neo ring which rides on the steel in the vertical position.
I was thinking of encasing the track and magnet, since the poles of the magnet are on either side, that is N left S right, or vice a versa.
Not sure if that's clear, all ideas welcome.
Thanks artv

[citfta]

Hello again Gene,

That was an interesting experiment. I know you probably already know what I am about to post but I want to review what we know about generators for the benefit of those who may be trying to follow our discussion and are not familiar with how they work.

A couple of years ago some of us were researching portable generators for emergency use. Some of the things we learned were that the frequency of the generator is a direcct function of how many magnets move past a coil in a given amount of time. In that case of the Mccullock generator discussed earlier the speed of the engine has to be at 3600 rpm to give a 60 hz signal.

Now to get the voltage we want we have to wind the proper number of turns in the coil to give us the voltage we want at the speed we need to get the frequency we want. The voltage is only determined by the number of turns and the speed of the rotor as long as the magnet strength is the same. So with a little experimentation we can come up with a number of turns we need to have to get the voltage we want.

What determines the current you may ask? Well the current is of course determined by the load as it follows ohms law. The limit to the current is how much power the engine has and the size of the wire (gauge) used in the windings. It the engine has the power to overcome the extra torque needed to generate the current then the only other limit to the current is the size of the wire.

As you add loads to the generator the load causes the generator to slow down but the governor of the engine will open some more and the extra fuel will help the engine to maintain the speed we need for the proper frequency and voltage.

So to summerize, the frequency and voltage are determined by the speed of the engine and the current is supplied by the torque of the engine driving the generator.

Now Gene I have favor to ask if you don't mind. If you still have your system put together I am really curious about something. Can you put your scope on the input to the transformer and see what that signal looks like when the output is open and especially what does it look like when the output of the transformer is shorted? I realize you have the transformer hooked up backwards but I am referring the input side you are supplying voltage to.

Thanks again for your input,
Carroll

PS: I have out of town company coming in for a few days and will be very busy so may not be able to respond quickly and sure won't have any time to experiment. Hopefully next week I can get around to testing for myself some of the things we have discussed.

[citfta]

Hi shylo,

I am not sure I understand what you are describing. Do you mean the narrow side of the magnet is perpendicular to the track or parallel to the track? Of maybe a sketch would help us see what you are doing. Also what is the purpose of the coils? Are they going to be propelling the magnet or are they going to be pickup coils to generate power? Won't the magnet stick to the track?

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Howdy Carroll,

Thank you for elaborating on those details.

Of course I'd be happy to do as you've asked and share whats noted in a video. I'll scope it starting open and then short it out to show how the input side behaves.

Thanks for the heads up, I understand. There is no urgency.

In fact here you go, Video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GObEq5Xc0xo

Cheers!
Gene

Hello again Gene,

That was an interesting experiment. I know you probably already know what I am about to post but I want to review what we know about generators for the benefit of those who may be trying to follow our discussion and are not familiar with how they work.

A couple of years ago some of us were researching portable generators for emergency use. Some of the things we learned were that the frequency of the generator is a direcct function of how many magnets move past a coil in a given amount of time. In that case of the Mccullock generator discussed earlier the speed of the engine has to be at 3600 rpm to give a 60 hz signal.

Now to get the voltage we want we have to wind the proper number of turns in the coil to give us the voltage we want at the speed we need to get the frequency we want. The voltage is only determined by the number of turns and the speed of the rotor as long as the magnet strength is the same. So with a little experimentation we can come up with a number of turns we need to have to get the voltage we want.

What determines the current you may ask? Well the current is of course determined by the load as it follows ohms law. The limit to the current is how much power the engine has and the size of the wire (gauge) used in the windings. It the engine has the power to overcome the extra torque needed to generate the current then the only other limit to the current is the size of the wire.

As you add loads to the generator the load causes the generator to slow down but the governor of the engine will open some more and the extra fuel will help the engine to maintain the speed we need for the proper frequency and voltage.

So to summerize, the frequency and voltage are determined by the speed of the engine and the current is supplied by the torque of the engine driving the generator.

Now Gene I have favor to ask if you don't mind. If you still have your system put together I am really curious about something. Can you put your scope on the input to the transformer and see what that signal looks like when the output is open and especially what does it look like when the output of the transformer is shorted? I realize you have the transformer hooked up backwards but I am referring the input side you are supplying voltage to.

Thanks again for your input,
Carroll

PS: I have out of town company coming in for a few days and will be very busy so may not be able to respond quickly and sure won't have any time to experiment. Hopefully next week I can get around to testing for myself some of the things we have discussed.

[shylo]

If I have a ring magnet, lay it down it won't roll away , I put it on its' edge so it can roll away. I steer it with layers of steel track, ~ 1in. wide at 26 awg.
Make a tunnel out of generating coils, since the magnet is rolling anyway.
Run the track and the magnet inside the coil.
I'm only using 1 magnet for now.
artv

[genessc]

Hi Shylo,

Sounds like a cross between Howard Johnsons work with perm magnets driving perm magnets and then John Searls work with the SEG. Have you read up on the SEG at all? Jason Verbelli appears to be the current champion of John in sharing the details from that particular context.

The howard johnson book on perm magnets in tracks and other configs can be had from The Tom Bearden Website and its a nice read.

To speak to the context you've shared, how do you start the motion? is it rolling down hill on the track? and if so, how does it get back to the top of the track?

If you are driving it with coils, I'm not really sure how that would work, can you share how you were thinking it would work?

Hope thats helpful.

Cheers,
Gene

If I have a ring magnet, lay it down it won't roll away , I put it on its' edge so it can roll away. I steer it with layers of steel track, ~ 1in. wide at 26 awg.
Make a tunnel out of generating coils, since the magnet is rolling anyway.
Run the track and the magnet inside the coil.
I'm only using 1 magnet for now.
artv

[citfta]

Thanks Gene,

That was not quite what I was expecting. I am going to have to think on those results a while. I guess I should have expected the voltage on the input to go to zero since the output is shorted. Sorry to keep bothering you but do you have a way to measure what the current on the input does? I would expect it to go up since the secondary is shorted but since the motor seems to unload maybe it is actually going down? If it is going down, then the question is why? Somewhere a while back I read someone's theory about coil shorting but I don't recall what they said about it. I guess when I have time I will have to do some digging and see if I can find that info.

Thanks for your quick reply.
Carroll

[genessc]

You bet Carroll.

Yeap it goes down close to zero...its at about 7-10vac is all, I coulda zoomed in I suppose to show what was then left with it shorted.

I'll toss an AC ammeter in series on that primary to drain pump connection so we can see what its averaging open and then shorted. Will video that and toss it on the net. (looks like I don't have a low current AC analog ammeter, gonna try the DVM as an ammeter, not the best but should give the general directional indication of current flow rates. )

That guy I think you are referring to is Thane Heins and his Bitoroid eh? If not, will be curious to hear what the reference is you are thinking of. (or might have been Konehead on Evgray maybe? been a few guys talking about shorting at the right place in the rotors rotations.)

Heres that vid with DVM as ammeter in series on primary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ1xbWKrF1A

Just to sum the video, the amps go up... measured unshorted at ~325mA and then Shorted at ~712mA

Take care!
Gene

Thanks Gene,

That was not quite what I was expecting. I am going to have to think on those results a while. I guess I should have expected the voltage on the input to go to zero since the output is shorted. Sorry to keep bothering you but do you have a way to measure what the current on the input does? I would expect it to go up since the secondary is shorted but since the motor seems to unload maybe it is actually going down? If it is going down, then the question is why? Somewhere a while back I read someone's theory about coil shorting but I don't recall what they said about it. I guess when I have time I will have to do some digging and see if I can find that info.

Thanks for your quick reply.
Carroll

[citfta]

hey Gene,

Thanks so much for taking the time to help with my curiosity! Well that is Verrry Interesting as that guy used to say on Laugh-In. Since the current is going up I wonder why the motor is speeding up and drawing less current?

I think it was Konehead who wrote the info I was reading. I have been away from the alternative energy field for over a year and so have forgotten some of the little I had learned. I used to be very active on this forum but got burned out dealing with people like Mikey, only some of them were much worse.

Why do you always have to have visitors coming right when you find something interesting you really want to dig into? Oh well, maybe next week I can do some serious testing.

Take care,
Carroll