Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[Matthew Jones]

I used to be very active on this forum but got burned out dealing with people like Mikey, only some of them were much worse.
t week I can do some serious testing.

Take care,
Carroll

You can go into your USER CP button on top of the sreen, then look to the left bar and go down till you find EDIT IGNORE LIST. ADD....

BROMIKEY The idiot!!

All your concerns about morons that spam this forum will disappear. Its a beautiful thing, use it and enjoy.

Nothing he says has any value anyway and he is probably one of the most successful misinformationist to grace us, so get rid of him and its that easy.

Matt

[citfta]

Hey Matt,

Good to see you on here. I was afraid maybe you were stuck in a field somewhere trying to get your crops in the ground while the weather has been so nice lately. I tested the rewound scooter motor driving my old window motor using the window motor as a generator. Comparing another motor that has not been rewound and the rewound motor the rewound motor uses a little more current but turns quite a bit faster. My son has borrowed my tach so I have to get it back to see how much faster. But the window motor as a generator was putting out 20 volts unloaded on the original wound motor. On the rewound motor the window motor put out 31 volts so I would guess the rewound motor is turning at least 50% faster than the original motor.

As far as guys like BroMikey, they don't really bother me anymore. I will try to help them see the truth. If they refuse then I will just let them enjoy their self-induced ignorance. Besides some of their ideas are just plain funny. It's kinda like watching some primitive in the jungle trying to worship an airplane.

Congratulations on the CNC machine. I told Dave if you guys need any help with it let me know. That is what I worked on for the last 25 years or so before I retired. Send me some info on it by email if you want. Like what size and brand and age. I am assuming it is a Mill. Is it more than a 3 axis machine? What software are you using? I am just being nosey, and I understand you are really busy right now so I don't expect an answer real quick.

Take care and I hope you get the rest of your crops in the ground before the next round of rain gets here.

Later,
Carroll

[Dingus]

All your concerns about morons that spam this forum will disappear. Its a beautiful thing, use it and enjoy.

I've found that if you add all the morons that spam this forum to the ignore list, pretty much the entire site disappears.

[genessc]

You bet!

After the fact I got the B&K878A LCR meter, set to 120hz and took inductance readings of the trafos windings with the Other winding shorted and open.

The 24vac side connected to the drain pump has an inductance of ~31.69mH.

When I short the 120vac side, the 24vac sides inductance drops to read 2.226mH.

I then checked the 120vac sides inductances both shorting the 24vac side and then leaving it open.

With 24vac shorted, the 120vac winding noted 40.15mH.

With the 24vac unshorted, the 120vac winding noted a 583.7mH inductance.

These last two measures are not of any particular importance, as the 120vac side is the output side, while its the 24vac side thats having its inductance manipulated by shorting the 120vac side.

Lastly I put the LCR meter on the two leads coming out of the drain pump motor as generator. The drain pumps inductance at the 120hz mark is 151.82mH.

If we put that in context, that means theres a 151.82mH of inductance feeding Out into the 31mH of inductance, and when thats the case we get the loading of 2.5amps on the input drive motor.

(note the 151.82mH inductance is variable by about 20-40mH +/- due the perm magnet rotors rotation causing this variability in its inductance.)

Thus when that 151.82mH is sent into 31mH we get some amount of pushback on the drive motor requiring that additional input Current to drive the drain pump.

When that 151.82mH is then seeing 2.22mH, What was volts becomes current as the windings impedance (resistance at frequency) becomes the limiting factor I guess.

To me, it seems like the volts is high and the loading heavy when the output circuit is setup to require big volts in... but if maybe the output circuit takes it all out primarily as current versus volts then maybe its allowing the current that would otherwise oscillate in the drain pumps own windings creating that reflective drag to then be circulating in the 24vac side in the 50va trafo sorta removing that energy from being locally circulated in the drain pump which is what allows the drain pump to speed back up and the input current to drop?

Anyways wanted to share those readings, since with the drive motor input volts I can adjust to get the thing running right at 120hz... it makes those measurements more useful... meter can also measure at 1khz, but ain't taking this drain pump motor to 20krpm...

Enjoy the company. This stuff can wait. (I totally understand about evgray, I was on there for years... been off for a couple years now... silver and hector, twins... neither of overmuch practical use... Nevermind some of the others... Ash was usually ok tho... )

Take care!
Gene

hey Gene,

Thanks so much for taking the time to help with my curiosity! Well that is Verrry Interesting as that guy used to say on Laugh-In. Since the current is going up I wonder why the motor is speeding up and drawing less current?

I think it was Konehead who wrote the info I was reading. I have been away from the alternative energy field for over a year and so have forgotten some of the little I had learned. I used to be very active on this forum but got burned out dealing with people like Mikey, only some of them were much worse.

Why do you always have to have visitors coming right when you find something interesting you really want to dig into? Oh well, maybe next week I can do some serious testing.

Take care,
Carroll

[genessc]

Thanks Matt, Will Do!

Gene

You can go into your USER CP button on top of the sreen, then look to the left bar and go down till you find EDIT IGNORE LIST. ADD....

BROMIKEY The idiot!!

All your concerns about morons that spam this forum will disappear. Its a beautiful thing, use it and enjoy.

Nothing he says has any value anyway and he is probably one of the most successful misinformationist to grace us, so get rid of him and its that easy.

Matt

[Matthew Jones]

I've found that if you add all the morons that spam this forum to the ignore list, pretty much the entire site disappears.

And whats wrong with that?


Matt

[Matthew Jones]

Hey Matt,

Good to see you on here. I was afraid maybe you were stuck in a field somewhere trying to get your crops in the ground while the weather has been so nice lately. I tested the rewound scooter motor driving my old window motor using the window motor as a generator. Comparing another motor that has not been rewound and the rewound motor the rewound motor uses a little more current but turns quite a bit faster. My son has borrowed my tach so I have to get it back to see how much faster. But the window motor as a generator was putting out 20 volts unloaded on the original wound motor. On the rewound motor the window motor put out 31 volts so I would guess the rewound motor is turning at least 50% faster than the original motor.

As far as guys like BroMikey, they don't really bother me anymore. I will try to help them see the truth. If they refuse then I will just let them enjoy their self-induced ignorance. Besides some of their ideas are just plain funny. It's kinda like watching some primitive in the jungle trying to worship an airplane.

Congratulations on the CNC machine. I told Dave if you guys need any help with it let me know. That is what I worked on for the last 25 years or so before I retired. Send me some info on it by email if you want. Like what size and brand and age. I am assuming it is a Mill. Is it more than a 3 axis machine? What software are you using? I am just being nosey, and I understand you are really busy right now so I don't expect an answer real quick.

Take care and I hope you get the rest of your crops in the ground before the next round of rain gets here.

Later,
Carroll

I am putting in 150k plants this spring/summer/fall. Average a dollar a plant after expenses.
The mill is 5 axis:
HY 3040 CNC 5 Axis Router Column Engraving Machine Ball Screw 1500W Spindle | eBay

Should get something done with it.

Matt

[citfta]

Nice mill

Nice looking mill Matt. With a 5 axis machine there is almost nothing you can't machine. About the only thing you can't do is turn parts like you can on a lathe. And I have one of those if you need something turned. If it uses regular machine G and M codes I can help with the programming if you need any help with that. Most of those codes are pretty standard with a few odd ones now and then for special features a particular machine might have.

My wife is curious as to what kind of crops you are planting. She grew up working on her grandparents farm. They mostly raised tobacco and corn. She grew up in the hills of southern Ky.

Later,
Carroll

[Matthew Jones]

My wife is curious as to what kind of crops you are planting. She grew up working on her grandparents farm. They mostly raised tobacco and corn. She grew up in the hills of southern Ky.

Later,
Carroll

We just grow produce, all year, all kinds. Right now we're certified organic and I really want a Biodynamic certification within the next 3 years. I got an orchard too that we're going to expand on. Fish too, I wanna grow fish, but without an organic grain farmer to buy food from its hard, so I gotta a lot planning ahead of me. I am the only organic farmer in this county so far and one of 3 in a nine county radius. But a lot of people are starting to catch on so as the market grows so will the farmers, I would think anyway.

Matt

[citfta]

That is great Matt. I am sure there are a lot of challenges to an operation that large. But also a lot of benefits to being the first in the area. Our own farming now is limited to just raising enough for us and our son with maybe some left over for friends and neighbors. We also are pretty much orgnanic. Our son has chickens, rabbits, goats and pigs so we can get plenty of manure for fertilizer. We also have some friends that have horses and they use sawdust for the bedding. That makes it so much easier to use as manure for the garden as the tiller can work it into the ground without all the hassle of straw tangling up in the tines. We use raised beds with a lot of organic material mixed in. This Georgia clay sets up like concrete when the sun hits it if it is not loaded with lots of loose organic material.

I realize this is somewhat off topic, but hey I started this thread so I can post about whatever I want.

Take care Matt.
C Ya later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Hi Matt,

I'm interested in changing up careers to become a farmer, have been for some time. It might be nice to be local to others who also share the same type of energy hobbies as maybe in the offhours we could get together and build stuff...

Not sure if thats something you're amicable to, so if you want, please pm me on the group here or hit me at bellerian1@comcast.net and maybe we can discuss the farming end of things a bit?

Totally up to you, I respect its your livelihood, so no pressure man.

I'm just sick of living in silly con valley... need the real world... country livin...

Take care!
Gene

We just grow produce, all year, all kinds. Right now we're certified organic and I really want a Biodynamic certification within the next 3 years. I got an orchard too that we're going to expand on. Fish too, I wanna grow fish, but without an organic grain farmer to buy food from its hard, so I gotta a lot planning ahead of me. I am the only organic farmer in this county so far and one of 3 in a nine county radius. But a lot of people are starting to catch on so as the market grows so will the farmers, I would think anyway.

Matt

[citfta]

Hello again Gene.

Well my out of town guests have been delayed a few hours so I ran a couple of quick tests. I have a window motor of my own design that I have wired up to be a generator instead of a motor. I am turning it with a scooter motor modified according to the Matt Jones design. I also have a small flywheel mounted on the same shaft for another project I am working on. So I am running the scooter motor off a 12volt 30 amp power supply. My son has borrowed my tach so I don't know what rpm I am getting. when I tried shorting the output of the window motor/generator directly the current went way up on the scooter motor and the load slowed everything way down almost to a stop.

I then hooked up a transformer with the 240 volt windings connected to the generator. With no load I could not see any difference in current draw, but am using an analogue meter so it could have moved a little. When I shorted the output of the 24 volt windings it make a very slight increase in current. Maybe a needle width. This makes sense as the generator is putting out about 30 volts AC so feeding that into the 240 volt windings would drop the voltage to 3 volts or so which means very little current would be flowing.

When I reversed the transformer so I was feeding the 24 windings with the 30 volts and shorted the 300 volts or so output it brought the system almost to a stop again. At no time did I see any speed up of the system or a reduction in current.

Is the reason for that because there is something special in the pump motor being used as a generator? Or is the answer that maybe I need to speed up the generator to get the effect? As best I recall it seems that in the case of reduced current and increased speed the generator was already spinning at a high rpm. I think I remember someone theorizing that if you could get the generator moving fast enough that by the time lentz starts to come into play the magnets have moved enough that lentz helps to push them away or maybe draw the next one.

I guess after the company is gone I will have to find one of those pump motors to play with and do some testing of my own.

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Howdy Carroll,

The drain pump motor consists of the two separate coils sharing the same armature laminates that reach up around the 2 pole ceramic magnet rotor. It could be the way those windings are interconnected.

One thing thats maybe unique in this context is that the transformer has a single winding center tapped for the 24vac side thats directly connected to the drain pump motor. While the drain pump has two physically offset coils sharing only the same core. Maybe the loading that would normally occur in the drain pumps windings are all circulating back and forth in the trafos 24vac winding, since its got so much less resistance and inductance when its secondary is shorted.

151mH on the drain pump into 2.2mH on the trafo 24vac winding is when its going faster... and here it dropped to the 1.5-1.6amp mark on input.

When its going at the 2.5amp input, that drain pumps 151mH is into 31mH or so.

I suppose I should also check the virtual capacitance and the impedance (resistance at frequency) with that 878A meter so I can account for those things as well.

If memory serves the window type motors don't use any cores, just air cored coils yeah?

It might also have something to do with the size of the sine on the AC signal being produced... ie peak voltage coming out... and how fast those peaks are transitioning... lower peaks can transition slower and maybe not produce the effect? I dunno. Just speculating out loud.

Theres a concept noted in a book called "dashed against the rocks; a romance of the coming age" that asserts that simply the DC voltage itself produces internal vibration within whatever is holding that voltage... A chart in that book noted that 50,000vdc was like the 75th octave of vibration... would have to go dig up that book to verify it exactly tho I think Dale Pond has a copy on svpvril.com that might be found.

Yeap always more crumbs on the trail...

Take care,
Gene

Hello again Gene.

Well my out of town guests have been delayed a few hours so I ran a couple of quick tests. I have a window motor of my own design that I have wired up to be a generator instead of a motor. I am turning it with a scooter motor modified according to the Matt Jones design. I also have a small flywheel mounted on the same shaft for another project I am working on. So I am running the scooter motor off a 12volt 30 amp power supply. My son has borrowed my tach so I don't know what rpm I am getting. when I tried shorting the output of the window motor/generator directly the current went way up on the scooter motor and the load slowed everything way down almost to a stop.

I then hooked up a transformer with the 240 volt windings connected to the generator. With no load I could not see any difference in current draw, but am using an analogue meter so it could have moved a little. When I shorted the output of the 24 volt windings it make a very slight increase in current. Maybe a needle width. This makes sense as the generator is putting out about 30 volts AC so feeding that into the 240 volt windings would drop the voltage to 3 volts or so which means very little current would be flowing.

When I reversed the transformer so I was feeding the 24 windings with the 30 volts and shorted the 300 volts or so output it brought the system almost to a stop again. At no time did I see any speed up of the system or a reduction in current.

Is the reason for that because there is something special in the pump motor being used as a generator? Or is the answer that maybe I need to speed up the generator to get the effect? As best I recall it seems that in the case of reduced current and increased speed the generator was already spinning at a high rpm. I think I remember someone theorizing that if you could get the generator moving fast enough that by the time lentz starts to come into play the magnets have moved enough that lentz helps to push them away or maybe draw the next one.

I guess after the company is gone I will have to find one of those pump motors to play with and do some testing of my own.

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Some additional details. I had a second 50va trafo and I wired it in parallel with the first with the LV side tied to the drain pump output. Now two are wired up directly to the drain pump.

I then put a half wave bridge rectifier (aka 2 diodes, one on either leg output from the 120vac side) into a 4.7uF 450v rated lytic cap.

On the other trafos output I left it open.

When I spun it up configured this way, that 4.7uF cap went to about 320vdc in charge...

If I then shorted the other open output winding on the other transformer, the dc collector cap would start to fall in voltage and would no longer accrue power. (input was 2.5amps, would drop to ~1.5amps)

If I put that other winding thru a 40watt 120vac rated incandescent lamp, again that 320vdc or so would start to fall, it would usually settle around 50vdc or so... as the 40 watt lamp would dimly be lit. (input was 2.5amps and would drop to ~2amps with the lamp as load)

Lastly I put a second hwbr and 4.7uF cap on the Other trafos secondary wired up so that the second 4.7uF cap was taking the wave from the other directional flow from the first transformers hwbr connections. (input was 2.5amps and didn't change when I added one or both capacitors as collectors.)

The size of the collector cap is what is gonna determine the max volts into it and over what period of time to reach that volt potential... 4.7 is pretty small. Prolly see about getting some 120uF 450v photo flash caps to try and see what the collected voltage then becomes and also how that increased uF size on the collecting caps might affect the input current.

The one thing that does appear to be the case is that the Current wants to flow where the least inductance is... so because shorting the trafos 120v side when the 24v side is wired to the drain pump is causing its inductance to go from ~31mH to ~2mH, the bulk of the current shifts out of the drain pump motor and into that 2mH winding resulting in that current doubling to about 700mA or so. (with it unshorted that current was around 350mA on the drain pump output.)

So this will charge caps... Anywho, there ya go. Might be more useful to play with than trying to follow Bromikey and the conundrum Morin.

Cheers,
Gene

Howdy Carroll,

The drain pump motor consists of the two separate coils sharing the same armature laminates that reach up around the 2 pole ceramic magnet rotor. It could be the way those windings are interconnected.

One thing thats maybe unique in this context is that the transformer has a single winding center tapped for the 24vac side thats directly connected to the drain pump motor. While the drain pump has two physically offset coils sharing only the same core. Maybe the loading that would normally occur in the drain pumps windings are all circulating back and forth in the trafos 24vac winding, since its got so much less resistance and inductance when its secondary is shorted.

151mH on the drain pump into 2.2mH on the trafo 24vac winding is when its going faster... and here it dropped to the 1.5-1.6amp mark on input.

When its going at the 2.5amp input, that drain pumps 151mH is into 31mH or so.

I suppose I should also check the virtual capacitance and the impedance (resistance at frequency) with that 878A meter so I can account for those things as well.

If memory serves the window type motors don't use any cores, just air cored coils yeah?

It might also have something to do with the size of the sine on the AC signal being produced... ie peak voltage coming out... and how fast those peaks are transitioning... lower peaks can transition slower and maybe not produce the effect? I dunno. Just speculating out loud.

Theres a concept noted in a book called "dashed against the rocks; a romance of the coming age" that asserts that simply the DC voltage itself produces internal vibration within whatever is holding that voltage... A chart in that book noted that 50,000vdc was like the 75th octave of vibration... would have to go dig up that book to verify it exactly tho I think Dale Pond has a copy on svpvril.com that might be found.

Yeap always more crumbs on the trail...

Take care,
Gene

[citfta]

Hello Gene,

Finally got some time to get back to a little experimenting. Yes the window motor does have air coils with no core. I have three coils on mine with them mounted so that each side of a coil is lined up with one magnet. And the magnets alternate from north to south so a single coil sees on one side a north magnet and on the other side a south magnet. With all coils wired in parallel I get an inductance of .517 mh. Looking at the open signal on my scope I get a very nice and clean sine wave at a frequency of 140 hz and a voltage of 31 volts. There are six neo magnets mounted on the rotor and mounted so the long axis of the magnet is parallel to the shaft. The coils are elongated to match the size of the magnets. The picture will help you see what I mean. I know it looks crude, but it runs very smoothly.

I just had an idea I think I will try. Each of those coils is actually bifiler because I was originally running it as a window motor using individual trigger windings. I wonder what would happen if I connect all six windings in series to raise the inductance? Then it would be more like the pump motor you are using with the higher inductance in the motor. It will take a little while to make sure I get all the phasing correct but I think I will try that. I'll let you know what happens.

I tried running the generator at a higher speed from 2800 to about 3600 rpm but it still loaded down badly if I shorted the output. So I guess I need to find one of those pump motors. I looked through the Morin thread for a while but did not see what brand of motor and pump you are using. I really didn't want to watch the hour long video of Morin to try and figure out what pump motor he had. If you don't mind where did you get your motor and what kind is it?

Thanks for sharing what you are doing.

Later,
Carroll