Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[citfta]

Hi Dave,

Applied Magnets® Ceramic Magnets 1 7 8" x 7 8" x 3 8" Block C8 Set of 10 | eBay

Here is a link to Ebay where I got my magnets. 10 of them for $8.85. I ordered 3 sets and then weighed them to get all the same weight on the rotor to make balancing easier. Most of them weighed 50 grams with a couple at 52 grams and a couple at 48 grams. I am still fine tuning and adjusting to see what I can learn from this generator. These coils do act strange. Dead shorted they act almost like they aren't even there. But connect them to a bridge to charge a cap and they do load the system a small amount with one coil connected.

The really strange thing I am trying to figure out is when I connect a second coil to a bridge and then try to connect the output of the bridge to the same cap it loads the system down almost to a standstill. Any one of the coils will charge a cap right up with almost no loading. But as soon as I try to add a second coil and bridge to the same cap it loads everything down badly. I thought I had a bad bridge but they all check fine and I have tried swapping several of them around with no change.

I tried connecting the second bridge to an almost dead battery and it did start charging the battery up with a small amount of loading on the system. So it may be possible to use the output of one of the coils to charge the second primary battery on the 3BGS. The top one that always seems to go down the fastest.

I have never gotten this system to speed up under a load but I haven't been trying anything but charging a cap and dumping back to the battery. And then the test I just did of charging a battery directly off the bridge. I guess I need to find some more loads and see what they do on this system.

Carroll

[gyula]

Hi Carroll,

Unfortunately, I have not tested this setup so cannot give my findings on it. From what Dave described (from the individual observations he spoke with) and what you kindly mentioned, it seems that inductive (and certain resistive) loads can cause the rotor to speed up or at least cause little Lenz drag. A dead short as the "load" is eventually a series R-L load in this setup because the generator coil's own L inductance gets in series with its own DC resistance, R and seeing the many fine wire turns of the gen coils I think the inductive reactance is probably way higher at the applied RPM than the DC resistance. You have used capacitive loading so far of course which also caused little Lenz drag.

What you also found with a second coil, connecting it to the same single puffer capacitor (via a separate diode bridge) is a strange behaviour for sure. Have you tried to position the second coil to elsewhere on the rotor's perimeter? I mean if the first coil is say at the 3 o'clock position and the second coil is at the 4:30 position (as they seem in your latest photo), then what if the second coil would be placed at say 11 or 6 o'clock etc position? Or you may have used the coil placed at the 9 o'clock position and you used one of the two coils at the opposite side and found the drag too?

I will go through the Bizzy thread and also Bedini's 1984 descriptions to get a deeper understanding on this setup.

Thanks
Gyula

[citfta]

Hi Gyula,

I spent almost all day yesterday working with this set-up. I did try moving the coils back and forth to change the timing between them. I also tried swapping the AC leads on the bridge rectifiers and every combination of the 3 coils I could come up with. At no time did I find a combination that would let me put the output from 2 bridges into the cap at the same time without severely loading down the drive motor.

I did try putting the output from 2 bridges back to the run battery at the same time and that seemed to load the system only a small amount. Since connecting directly to a battery only loads the system a small amount but connecting to a cap loads the system more I am inclined to believe the problem has to be related to the impedance of the generating coils. I am tempted to rewind one of them as I think someone suggested.

I don't recall which post but somewhere in the last couple of pages I posted the inductance reading I got when measuring one of the coils. Many years ago I could have told you how to calculate the reactance but have long since forgotten that info. Maybe I need to dig out my old ARRL handbook and do some refresher reading.

Enough for now. I am still pondering over the results I have gotten so far.

Later,
Carroll

[gyula]

Hi Carroll,

Here is a link you can use online to calculate inductive reactance when the L inductance of a coil is known, see the 2nd calculator:
Reactance Calculators - Calculates Capcitance and Inductance from reactance, Inductive Reactance and Capacitive Reactance

and you can figure the frequency from the rotor rpm of course.

Thanks for the info on your tests, sounds strange indeed. Perhaps the two coils and the puffer capacitor are able to form a near resonant circuit (via the diode bridges) at the rpm used and the circulating AC current in the "LC circuit" thus brought about creates a strong counter magnetic field? To check this, try either to alter the RPM significantly or use a different value puffer capacitor at the original RPM. Can you use the 3rd coil too with a 3rd diode bridge and combine the three output into the same puffer cap too or you may have tried this?

Gyula

[citfta]

Hi Gyula,

I have not tried connecting a 3rd coil and bridge to the cap. I have tried a wide range of rpm with the same result. I have not tried a different cap although I have a pretty good collection of them. The one I have been using is a 800 uf cap. With that large of a cap I wouldn't think I would be hitting any resonant frequencies but something strange is sure going on. I will try something bigger later when I have some time to do some more testing. Thanks for that idea.

Thanks also for the online calculator. I keep forgetting you can find a formula for anything now days online.

I made my living for the last 25 years or so that I worked by troubleshooting electrical and electronic equipment. Mostly CNC machine tools with a wide variety of other electronic equipment thrown in too. I don't give up easily when I see a strange problem. I enjoy a good challenge. Something I also haven't done yet is to look at the signals with a scope. I have a dual trace scope so I can look at the signals from two coils at once. I don't know why I haven't thought to do that before now.

Later this evening I will have some time to do more testing so maybe I will have some more info to share after that.

Take care,
Carroll

[gyula]

Okay, so I think we may rule out LC resonance behaviour between the generator coils and the puffer capacitor.
However, one thing is sure: the capacitive loading your puffer cap represents to the two separate generator coils somehow creates a counter field and this latter is not present when a battery is the load or the capacitor is "seen" by one of the coils only.

The loading effect is strange because once the capacitor gets charged up there should not be any significant current flow to or from the capacitor so what may cause the load is hard to think out.
IT is good you have a scope, fortunately the generator coils are totally independent from the mains ground and probably from each other too (there is galvanic separation between them I mean), so there will be no problem to use the common grounds of the scope inputs to cause any error or trouble.

In the meantime I went through John Bedini infos on his 1984 setup (from which Jim Watson built a small and a big replication) and what I found is the energizer as John calls his output coils with the inducing magnets (ie your or Dave's pump motor coils with the rotor magnets) are induced with one pole of the magnets only, not with both poles as you do.
IF you follow Bizzy's setup, maybe he used both poles, I do not know yet because I will go through his info tomorrow and onwards.
And as I figure the control of John's original setup, he interrups the motor input current when the energizer output is loaded and then the output current is interrupted when the motor is ON. The input energy is partly stored in the flywheel when the motor is just off and the induced output energy is stored in a capacitor which is discharged also in a controlled way into a load. This process as a whole is meant (by John) to give extra output over the input I think.

Gyula

[citfta]

Hi again,

Yes that is the idea. The flywheel is supposed to keep the rotor speed up while the motor is coasting and the battery is being recharged. I am not sure if I have explained my whole set-up on here or not. I have been communicating with Dave (Turion) by email so I may not have posted all I am doing. I am using a set of mosfets to control power to and from the battery. I am charging the cap while the battery is powering the modified scooter motor (Matt's design). Then I am disconnecting the battery from the motor and discharging the cap back to the battery. And then reconnecting the battery to the drive motor. I am controlling the mosfets by a pic chip which I can reprogram easily from my PC. This allows me to change all the variables of the timing. There are just a lot of variables to play with and try out. I realize my generator coils are not what Watson used but they seemed interesting because of the low lenz effect when connected to certain kinds of loads.

Thanks for your input. I appreciate having someone else look at what I am doing and your suggestions.

Later,
Carroll

[Turion]

Carroll,

Thanks for the heads up on the magnets. I ordered enough make a brand new rotor but if I pick up a few more at Lowes, I will have enough to finish the rotor I have, so am going to do that tomorrow. I played around with this some this weekend, and I noticed that with the size magnet we are using there is a point during rotation where one magnet is across both ends of the core of the U shaped coil at the same time, and then each end of the core has a different polarity over it, and then the other polarity is across both ends of the core. I can't help but think that there is going to be some kind of reaction somewhere in the system when that happens, and that the spacing on the magnets needs to be such that both faces cannot be bridged by the same polarity of magnet at the same time.

I also want to experiment with a rotor that spins a magnet BETWEEN the two core ends instead of across the ends. I want to know which gives me the best results. I need to find a magnet that is narrow enough to fit in the gap between the two ends and gives me enough clearance so that it doesn't hit. I can find some neos that will work, but haven't had much luck finding ceramics that will. I will keep looking. As is usual with this stuff, I have gone overboard. I now have seven of those pump motors, and if the one in the bathroom ceiling fan downstairs is the same, I will have eight of them. That fan was squeaking, so it's a good reason to put in a new motor. Of course, if it is not the same, I'll just oil it.

[genessc]

Howdy Carroll,

Yeap, this is the O type laminates versus the EI type laminate. Its also the fact that there are two coils on opposite sides of the O laminates that are connected in a particular way to add the total output.

Also the reason why your circuit is bogging down when you add a Second generator coil to a bridge and out to the Same cap is that in effect the second gen coil is now Added to the inductance of the first gen coil, which from my measurements of them they're at about 150mH per gen coil pair.

Given the inductance ratio I noted, of about 5:1, presumably the driving inductance is ~5times the inductance of just a single gen coil on that particular context of configuration? so its about 750mH or so? (that would keep the 5:1 stepdown inductance ratio noted with the drain pump motor output from itself at 150mH to the 50va secondary which was measured at ~30mH for that Speedup effect under shorting/resistive loading to occur.)

Another thing to consider is at what RPM the drive side is at when you add the second coil... is it up in the ~7200rpm range? or are you down around the 3600rpm range? if its not above a certain RPM then the loading generates a Stalling effect...

I've noted if I have the primary shorted on the trafo connected to the drain pump and I try to Start the drive motor, it refuses to Start. I have to unshort that side and get it up to Speed and THEN short it and then it speeds up and input amps goes down.

Anyways some more details you can maybe make use of. Cheers.

Gene

Hi Dave,

Applied Magnets® Ceramic Magnets 1 7 8" x 7 8" x 3 8" Block C8 Set of 10 | eBay

Here is a link to Ebay where I got my magnets. 10 of them for $8.85. I ordered 3 sets and then weighed them to get all the same weight on the rotor to make balancing easier. Most of them weighed 50 grams with a couple at 52 grams and a couple at 48 grams. I am still fine tuning and adjusting to see what I can learn from this generator. These coils do act strange. Dead shorted they act almost like they aren't even there. But connect them to a bridge to charge a cap and they do load the system a small amount with one coil connected.

The really strange thing I am trying to figure out is when I connect a second coil to a bridge and then try to connect the output of the bridge to the same cap it loads the system down almost to a standstill. Any one of the coils will charge a cap right up with almost no loading. But as soon as I try to add a second coil and bridge to the same cap it loads everything down badly. I thought I had a bad bridge but they all check fine and I have tried swapping several of them around with no change.

I tried connecting the second bridge to an almost dead battery and it did start charging the battery up with a small amount of loading on the system. So it may be possible to use the output of one of the coils to charge the second primary battery on the 3BGS. The top one that always seems to go down the fastest.

I have never gotten this system to speed up under a load but I haven't been trying anything but charging a cap and dumping back to the battery. And then the test I just did of charging a battery directly off the bridge. I guess I need to find some more loads and see what they do on this system.

Carroll

[genessc]

One other idea on magnet orientation Carroll...

Oh one other idea on the magnet orientation on the rotor... what if you take all those ceramic magnets and turn them sideways? they are about as thick as the laminate gap where the old rotor went... so if you keep them spaced about a magnet or so's thickness apart, you'll then be having a curious layout on the perm magnet rotor... Magnets fields are then orthagonal to the coils ends...

That might produce some interesting generation results... anywho just an idea...

Gene

[voltan]

hi citfta. this might help with feeding additional coil outputs to the storage cap.
the blue lines and arrows show flow from - to + for the first coil and either polarity input to the ac legs is additive, in voltage, to the 1st coil's.
maybe another fwbr is required to rectify the 1st coils output on the front of this, or maybe try splitting the 1st coils output like you would do a voltage doubler,and run 2 strands of fwbr's. or maybe you have to take phasing into account, or maybe rectification and smoothing of each coil's output is required. lotsa maybe's but it might be worth trying different combinations.
also, for y connected motor coils, a common scheme for car alternators looks like it blocks cross currents, phase to phase,effectively. easily expandable for more than 3 phases and available in 1 block component for 3 phase.
pic 4 is a nifty adaptation.
cheers.

[gyula]

I have pondered on Carroll's problem with connecting the two DC outputs of the two diode bridges in parallel: basically the problem is that he has two different voltage sources and these can only be connected in parallel if the inner resistances and the output amplitudes of the sources are identical. If you connect a 12V and a 12.5V battery in parallel for instance, the 0.5V difference will drive a charging current into the 12V battery and this is a load for 12.5V battery. Maybe such a 'load' appears in Carroll's setup for one of the output coils?
The best is to use a scope and explore the phase and amplitude issues.

Perhaps a simple solution to separate the two voltage sources is to insert a diode in series with the DC output of one of the diode bridges. This diode could block any loading effect by the other source. Such series diode is used at the outputs of solar panels to prevent their backloading effect towards the batteries when there is no sunlight.

Voltan's second drawing is correct I think and should give a solution too, however the DC outputs are added in series. IT is true that the individual DC outputs are available too but with a common + and - connection.

Gyula

[citfta]

Hi voltan,

Thanks for your suggestions. I have tried connecting the separate coils to individual bridges and then connecting the output of the bridges to the same cap. That is when the system bogs down. If I connect them to different caps then the system runs fine. However I can connect the outputs of both bridges back to the run battery and it does not bog the system down.

Gyula,

I think you may have it figured out. There is a difference in voltage from the coils primarily because of my crude set-up. I don't have all coils mounted exactly the same distance from the rotor and of course I don't have the phasing exactly the same either. I did take a quick look yesterday with the dual trace scope and did not see anything that looked out of the ordinary. So I think you are right the problem is probably just a mismatch in voltage causing one to feed the other. It is kind of strange I don't get that effect when connecting them both to the same battery but the capacity of the battery is so large it probably just absorbs the charge and doesn't allow any to feed back to the other coil. I need to try with a larger cap and see if that makes a difference. I will try to do that later today if I have time. I have another unrelated project I am going to have to take care of that will keep me tied up for the next few weeks and will not be able to do any testing after today. But I will be back at this as soon as possible. And I know Dave is also working on the pump motor coil generator idea.

Later,
Carroll

[gyula]

Hi Carroll,

Well, I think that if your lower amplitude output (out of the two outputs) is still higher than the battery voltage amplitude, then no back-loading can occur under this condition, both outputs can charge the battery, albeit with different charging currents, this explains why there is no problem when the battery is the load at the common output.

This would mean that with a larger capacitor (instead of the present puffer capacitor) and the battery unconnected, you would not solve this problem.

Gyula

[Turion]

I'm going to run the original pump motor as a generator by removing the fan that is on one end of the rotor assembly and turning the shaft with a drill or Dremel tool, just to see what the output will be and how many amps I can get out of it. That will give me some idea of the potential of this unit as a generator. I have already come up with several ideas on how to utilize this as a generator and will be exploring those to see which provides the most output for the least input. Ultimately, I am looking for something I can run with a rewound Razor Scooter motor, although that might be overkill for this unit once magnetic cogging is overcome by operating it at higher rpm's. Since it DOES speed up under loads.

I have also been woking on the 3BGS circuit and with some changes we made I had a four hour run yesterday with full recovery of the primaries while running a razor scooter motor hooked up to another razor scooter motor as a generator and powering some lights. I also ran a 12 volt fan across battery 3 for a time. Plus the secondary batteries charged way, way up. We ALL know that the primary batteries can recover, but whether they have the same CAPACITY is the real question, and I wish I had a battery analyzer to really test them. I believe Matt does, so maybe when if this run is successful, I can talk him into replicating it and then testing his primary batteries.

Today I will be doing an 8 hour run of the same setup with DIFFERENT batteries to see if I can replicate the results. If so, I will give the circuit to a couple others to try, and if they are also successful, post it on the forum.

As usual, I had a wild idea, and immediately went to Matt to figure out how to put it into practical application and he figured out the circuit for me. Then he had to talk me through building it, even though it is simple, because I am dense. Anyway, I will be posting all this on the Basic Free Energy Device thread, and if we release the circuit, on the 3BGS thread as it directly pertains to that.

Dave