Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[bistander]

Energy & power

So when I plug my watt meter into the wall and plug my fan into the watt meter and come back at the end of one hour and look at the reading on that meter I'm NOT looking at how much energy (watts) were used or consumed by that device during that period of time? If not, what is my watt meter telling me? Don't we pay our electric bill based on killowatt hours (1000 watts) of consumption?

Yes, you pay your electric utility provider for the energy you use and the units are kilowatt hours. A kilowatt hour = 1000 watt hours (not watts). A watt hour = 3600 watt seconds = 3600 Ws = 3600 J ( joules, the basic unit of energy.

If your watt meter is similar to mine, a Killawatt brand name, it reads multiple parameters, like volts, amperes, frequency, power factor, power (watts), energy (watt hours) and time (over which the energy (Wh) were accumulated. When watts are shown it is the instantaneous value of the power so there are no time units associated with that rate.

Difficult to follow and my explanation may not be the best. So I encourage you to check elsewhere. Wikipedia does a decent job.

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Watt

I think I am starting to understand. I know that volts x amps equals watts and instead of calling usage over time watt hours I am calling it watts per hour.

Watt hours is a unit of energy while watts per hour would be a rate, if there were such a thing. Yet I am still not sure why it isn't appropriate to say that a specific number of watts were used in one hour. I realize it is a little like saying how many gallons of gas were used in an hour rather than how many miles per gallon.

Actually "watts" is already a rate as a watt is a joule per second. So "watts per hour" is an acceleration of joules (energy). The only place I've ever seen such a metric used is the rate at which large utility scale generator stations are brought on line (ie. how quickly they can be brought up to full capacity).

Regards,

bi

[BroMikey]

I think I am starting to understand.

I don't mean to interrupt but Bi is not speaking rationally. You are right in all
counts but Bi keeps changing his questions a sort of going nowhere
rambling.

bi thinks a watt second is non sense. Can you believe that? I mean
this is a basic math in electrical engineering. Where are the advanced
students?

A watt minute must be nonsensical too.

[ricards]

Base Dimensions

Eric dollard explains this really well in his video "Origin of Energy Synthesis"

He differentiated the "Substance-tial" or "Quantitive" to "Metrical" dimensions.

basically "Metrical" dimensions are what you use to derive a "Quantitive" in order to define a rate (in case of time) or a density (in case of spacial).

relating to your topic.

"Energy" is defined as how many "Electricity" you use in one second

Electricity per second
Q/s=J
Joule

"Watt" is a unit of how many "Energy" you use in one second.

Energy per second
Joules per second
Electricity per second per second
J/s=W

in a concrete example : you use your TV that consumes a certain amount of Energy in "Watts" same thing as your Refrigerator, and your computer... all consumes a certain amount of "Watts" that is of course different from each other... one consumes more the other consumes less..

now since you don't use your TV,Computer or other appliances all the time, what your utility provider wants to get is the total Energy you consumed "Watt-Hour"...

Watt = Joules/s
W=J/s

Watt Hour = WH
as the name suggest
Watt * Hour

let us derive that

(J/s)* (60min*60s) = (J/s)*3600s = J3600s/s = 3600 J = WH = Watt Hour

so Watt Hour is the total Energy you have consumed using different appliances.

there is a whole misconception (according to EPD) about "Energy"
according to him "Energy" is not something "Primary" or "Substance-tial" its just a derivative of a "Substance" well.. anyway off topic
hope that helps.

[BroMikey]

............. people keep telling me I am mixing up terms so now I am just confused. I think I will just go back to my batteries.

At least your batteries are good to you.

[bistander]

The difference

I understood a watt to be a measure of one moment in time of volts x amps, but a watt second, minute or hour to be a measure of a watt over time. In other words a watt second is one volt x one amp for one second, but people keep telling me I am mixing up terms so now I am just confused. I think I will just go back to my batteries.

Do you see the difference between "watt hours" and "watts per hour"? Wh vs W/h? Between Ws (which is a joule) vs W/s (which is nonsense)?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt_hour
Includes sections entitled:
*Confusion of kilowatt hours (energy) and kilowatts (power)*
and
*Misuse of watts per hour*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt

[bistander]

Confusion

Eric dollard explains this really well in his video "Origin of Energy Synthesis"

He differentiated the "Substance-tial" or "Quantitive" to "Metrical" dimensions.

basically "Metrical" dimensions are what you use to derive a "Quantitive" in order to define a rate (in case of time) or a density (in case of spacial).

relating to your topic.

"Energy" is defined as how many "Electricity" you use in one second

Electricity per second
Q/s=J
Joule

"Watt" is a unit of how many "Energy" you use in one second.

Energy per second
Joules per second
Electricity per second per second
J/s=W

in a concrete example : you use your TV that consumes a certain amount of Energy in "Watts" same thing as your Refrigerator, and your computer... all consumes a certain amount of "Watts" that is of course different from each other... one consumes more the other consumes less..

now since you don't use your TV,Computer or other appliances all the time, what your utility provider wants to get is the total Energy you consumed "Watt-Hour"...

Watt = Joules/s
W=J/s

Watt Hour = WH
as the name suggest
Watt * Hour

let us derive that

(J/s)* (60min*60s) = (J/s)*3600s = J3600s/s = 3600 J = WH = Watt Hour

so Watt Hour is the total Energy you have consumed using different appliances.

there is a whole misconception (according to EPD) about "Energy"
according to him "Energy" is not something "Primary" or "Substance-tial" its just a derivative of a "Substance" well.. anyway off topic
hope that helps.

What you have written contains several contradictions with the standard (classical) definitions. I fail to see why we cannot use a common language, the scientific terminology used by Tesla and millions since his time.

Watts are units of power. Watt hours are units of energy. Q is universally used as the symbol for electric charge. Q/s is current. Coulombs/second = amperes.

When Turion or anybody else writes about power and energy, should he choose to use a nonstandard language, he should state so and define the terms and words. All rational readers assume the standard classical scientific universally accepted definitions, terminology and units unless it is stated otherwise.

Regards,

bi

[BroMikey]

What you have written contains several contradictions with the standard (......

When Turion or anybody else writes about power and energy, should
he choose to use a nonstandard language,

........All rational readers assume the standard ............

There you go again repeating what is a known as if you were the
instructor while everyone else failed. Joules and watts are easy
so try to spend less time putting yourself on this imaginary pedestal
of super-hero jot and tittle correctness, quoting guys like Tesla as if you
were his son who deserves all of our attention.

You want attention? Do away with the trifles and show us some
joules you harvested, over and above the standard engineering 66 percent
recovery 33 percent losses.

Where is your black box Tesla JR.? Adding joules up in all of the forms
that have been pointed out to you is not non-sense. Stop wasting
time playing with synonyms and homonyms, then get some clues
about why we are here.

All of your time in post form is spent splitting nonsensical hairs.

A watt minute is easy or watt second, set back and let someone repeat
this again and you will be okay, then catch on.

[citfta]

BM,

The main person who has added more confusion and mixed up terms to this forum than anyone else is YOU. You have constantly posted videos of faked devices and insisted they were real even after some of us have shown you how they were faked. You attack people personally with name calling and putdowns just because they post something you don't agree with technically. You have absolutely no discernment ability whatsoever. You will believe any YouTube video if the presenter has a good way of presenting it.

bistander and I have both spent many many hours trying to help people on this forum understand some of the technicalities of working with electronics. We have had some of our detractors actually start to listen to what we say because they have found we were actually right when we tried to help them. So you can take your claims against bistander somewhere else as they are clearly not wanted in this thread. If you had any respect for yourself at all you would have noticed he did not intrude on your thread. He came here to have a discussion with Turion. I did not see where you were invited to the discussion.

By the way how is your buddy Gerard doing now days? You continually put down those of us that kept claiming he didn't know what he was doing. So what great discoveries has he made now? You don't need to answer that in this thread. I already know the answer.

So if you want to see who adds the most confusion to this forum just go look in a mirror.

I respectfully request you go back to your thread and leave this one alone. We don't need your nonsense here.

Carroll

[ricards]

What you have written contains several contradictions with the standard (classical) definitions. I fail to see why we cannot use a common language, the scientific terminology used by Tesla and millions since his time.

Watts are units of power. Watt hours are units of energy. Q is universally used as the symbol for electric charge. Q/s is current. Coulombs/second = amperes.

When Turion or anybody else writes about power and energy, should he choose to use a nonstandard language, he should state so and define the terms and words. All rational readers assume the standard classical scientific universally accepted definitions, terminology and units unless it is stated otherwise.

Regards,

bi

I understand perfectly what you mean.. and did found out the the standard symbol is indeed Q, but Q is defined as "Total Electrification" in Planck according to Eric dollard, (Planck I think is also different in Classical term, speed of light? I'm not sure) you see we are never really gonna use a "Common Language".

"Classical" "Standard" mostly are Einsteinian whilst eric dollard is against him, he even went so far to write a theory of anti-relativity... but thats a whole new discussion that I do not want to get involved with.

I believe we arrived at the same conclusion (Watt Hour is unit of Energy). why go so far to make the underlined statements?

I take it as you really have a bad day..

[bistander]

Communication

I understand perfectly what you mean.. and did found out the the standard symbol is indeed Q, but Q is defined as "Total Electrification" in Planck according to Eric dollard, (Planck I think is also different in Classical term, speed of light? I'm not sure) you see we are never really gonna use a "Common Language".

"Classical" "Standard" mostly are Einsteinian whilst eric dollard is against him, he even went so far to write a theory of anti-relativity... but thats a whole new discussion that I do not want to get involved with.

I believe we arrived at the same conclusion (Watt Hour is unit of Energy). why go so far to make the underlined statements?

I take it as you really have a bad day..

Hi ricards,

If you and I were having a conversation involving math and I use conventional nomenclature (like plus means addition and minus means subtraction) and you, unknowingly to me, define plus and minus opposite, we could, probably certainly, encounter communication difficulty. However, at the beginning of the conversion, you were to inform me of your unconventional nomenclature, I could account for it and we could have a meaningful discussion. I believe it is the responsibility of, or at least good manners for, the one using unconventional language or terminology to make it known to those with whom he communicates.

Actually today's been good, so far. I hope your day is also. Please don't take offense with my style. I tend to be blunt. Perhaps I should have told you that at the start of my last post.

Regards,

bi

[ricards]

Hi ricards,

If you and I were having a conversation involving math and I use conventional nomenclature (like plus means addition and minus means subtraction) and you, unknowingly to me, define plus and minus opposite, we could, probably certainly, encounter communication difficulty. However, at the beginning of the conversion, you were to inform me of your unconventional nomenclature, I could account for it and we could have a meaningful discussion. I believe it is the responsibility of, or at least good manners for, the one using unconventional language or terminology to make it known to those with whom he communicates.

Actually today's been good, so far. I hope your day is also. Please don't take offense with my style. I tend to be blunt. Perhaps I should have told you that at the start of my last post.

Regards,

bi

Its been a good day to me as well.. but can't sleep wants to study..

I did state my source Eric Dollard's work, maybe your not familiar with his work?..
I actually did not learn the "Classical" or "Standard" meaning in University.. but I am learning little by little.. everything so far in studying "Dielectricity" make sense.. I'm not even sure that Exist in "Classical".

Glad to encounter a blunt person. (never really bump into one)

[BroMikey]

BM,

The main person who has added more confusion ... is YOU.

You have constantly posted videos of faked devices .........

You have absolutely no discernment ability whatsoever.

You will believe any YouTube video ...........

bistander and I have both spent many many hours trying to help people ...

.........your claims against bistander .............. are clearly not wanted

I did not see where you were invited to the discussion.

By the way how is your buddy Gerard doing now days?


......go back to your thread and leave this one alone.

When you keep calling my name I may or may not respond whether
you agree with the answer or not on your so called "OPEN DISCUSSION"

Yeah right, as long as you agree it is open. I will respect your wishes
and i hope you and your buddies will stop putting my name out there
as some form of validation of how I missed it.

This is your thread so try to keep my name out of it so I don't have
to respond. I don't want to be here other than to answer your claims
against me, along with you pal's.

Also don't belittle others who are friends of mine like people who were
forwarded by John Bedini as leaders. You and your thread attitude of
so called polished jargon are the tools that were used for decades
against all great inventors.

Anyone using this approach to attack, belittle and smear will be
subject to "OPEN DISCUSSION" and corrected in one form or another.

You may have your CLOSED MINDED DISCUSSION thread as long as
you obey the rules.

[bistander]

Hogwash

When you keep calling my name I may or may not respond whether
you agree with the answer or not on your so called "OPEN DISCUSSION"
...

All I did was mention the thread where Turion posted something I thought I might be able to help with. I was talking to Turion.

Hello Turion,

... I am reluctant to post on a thread started by BM, so I hope you find your way here...

I certainly did not call your name. In fact I thought I made it clear I wanted no interaction with you. However you post up lies and demeaning statements about me. Please leave me alone. I've said that before.

bi

[citfta]

When you keep calling my name I may or may not respond whether
you agree with the answer or not on your so called "OPEN DISCUSSION"

Yeah right, as long as you agree it is open. I will respect your wishes
and i hope you and your buddies will stop putting my name out there
as some form of validation of how I missed it.

This is your thread so try to keep my name out of it so I don't have
to respond. I don't want to be here other than to answer your claims
against me, along with you pal's.

Also don't belittle others who are friends of mine like people who were
forwarded by John Bedini as leaders. You and your thread attitude of
so called polished jargon are the tools that were used for decades
against all great inventors.

Anyone using this approach to attack, belittle and smear will be
subject to "OPEN DISCUSSION" and corrected in one form or another.

You may have your CLOSED MINDED DISCUSSION thread as long as
you obey the rules.

As usual you run your big mouth without getting any of the facts straight. I did not mention your name until AFTER you butted into a discussion that clearly was NOT directed at you. As bi has already said he came over here to have a discussion without interfering with YOUR thread. But you didn't have the same respect for him. So I called you out on it. It is obvious you can't carry on an intelligent discussion about technical matters but do you have to keep attacking those that actually want to have an intelligent discussion?

So I'll say it again. If you don't want anyone talking about you then don't butt into others people's discussions and start putting them down for trying to have an intelligent discussion.

Carroll