Fly-back voltage vs back-emf

[Dave45]

Great idea's UFO but my software is very limited as is my IQ
How about just a HV pulse

[Farmhand]

Back emf is not a reverse current, it is a "force", current is an effect, the
back emf is a force against the flow of current created by the emf we apply,
and as such there is no actual reverse current.

The two current flows in a wire as I see it are 1. the "charges" flowing to the load,
and 2. the electrons jiggling along in the other direction. The real "current" is the flow of charges.

So in short I see it like this, current is the effect of the applied emf, charges
flow to the load and electrons go the other way. Back emf is an effect of the
applied emf and only works against the flow of current. The instant the emf is
removed the back emf resulting from it ceases to exist. The energy
discharged from the coil is forward emf and as such creates it's own back
emf. The magnetic field surrounding the coil is a result of the flow of charge
from the applied emf. Weather or not some extra energy is drawn back into
the system during the collapse of the magnetic field another matter and
should be easily testable, my tests all show me that no there is not, and in
fact there are losses as small as they may be. I have got over 95% efficiency
or close enough to it for me, but I haven't measured anything over 100%.

Cheers

[tachyon]

delete delete delete delete delete delete delete delete delete delete

[peacepenguin]

interesting comments so far. most seem to be related to the back emf side of the discussion. what about the actual Flyback transformer? it can multiply voltages to very high levels. apparently CRT TVs use them and that's why they have a high pitch whine that some can hear.

looks like the bedini Ssg uses this concept. interesting that Flyback hasn't had more discussion since its the backbone of a lot of the cool devices out there. the ones I've been interested in are these:

kromrey / g field

Ssg

dollards analog computer in longitudinal arrangement.

Stan Meyer water cracking without electrolysis

each one of those devices seems to be influenced by an inductive collapse. a fly back transformer operates on an inductive collapse. so, maybe more thoughts on inductive collapse would be useful. perhaps how inductive collapse can be seen as a back emf or forward emf. and be misinterpreted as BEMF when maybe it's a whole different thing all together.

-Ben

[tachyon]

BEMF is the action-reaction from newton's 3rd law and faraday's law.. fly-back voltage is an effect from BEMF ...

[citfta]

Apples and pears

You can call something anything you want. If I want to call a pear an apple instead of calling it a pear that is fine as long as I am talking to someone that has never been taught what a pear is. If I tell them it is an apple they are fine with that. However if I talk to someone that is used to the rest of the world calling a pear by the name pear I am going to cause confusion. And that is the situation here. I and anyone that has been trained and worked in electronics have been trained to understand that flyback is the same as impulse discharge of an inductor. And it has nothing to do with back emf! Now you guys can go right on trying to tell everyone that you know what back emf is and that it is the same as flyback or inductive spike but if you talk to someone that has worked in electronics for any time at all they are not going to understand what you are trying to say. I am not saying you DON"T understand what you are doing I am just saying you are using the wrong terms to describe what you are doing and the effects you are getting.

While I an talking about wrong terminology let me add another expression that is used wrongly on this forum a lot. Transistors do not open and close. In the real world of electronics an open transistor is a BAD transistor. A transistor turns on and turns off or somewhere in between. An open transistor is one that has no connections left inside and therefore is useless.

There are very many online free electronics courses on the internet. I would highly suggest you spend some time taking some of those courses. If you are willing to invest some time in learning you will be amply rewarded. Not only will you be able to talk understandably about what you are doing but you will also be able to understand what is going on when things don't work like you thought they would.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[jpolakow]

Hello Jpolakow,

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you and be on total agreement with Dave 45...
And We must NOT only go by the laws they taught Us as per other opinions...BUT MAINLY by Our own Lab and Development Work on this fields , in order NOT to state conclusions merely based on others explanations and concepts.



There are always TWO Forces of Current flow , traveling in any given conductor that We have excited by sending our artificial generated Flow. This currents Oppose to each others BUT are absolutely NOT in conflict related to each others...They BOTH can travel in opposite directions within a single strand of wire. There are MANY simple testing that can prove that FACT.

And I really do not mind what "Name" we give them ...but I know they BOTH EXIST.



A Magnetic Field manifests, lives and propagates into Space, Open Space... while a current, an electron flow of OUR generated side, can ONLY travel,move, within a given path called conductor(s). Therefore, A Magnetic Field Can NOT oppose DIRECTLY to any other flow that exist in other Space or Limited Area...except trough ANOTHER Flow directly related to that Magnetic Field that executes within same dimension of Our Flow.

When We create a Magnetic Field through our Coils it goes "free out to space" beyond the means that created it (our flow), it projects an Irregular Three Dimensional Spectrum that develops/blows out of that Coil, out of that wire...then it triggers a series of OTHER parameters/events beyond our flow, where starts an exchange of atomic and molecular alignments and positioning within that 3D Space. This whole process-completely out of the reach of our electron flow scope-keeps developing as long as We keep supplying the flow that generated the MF.

The "Capacity" of Storage of Our Flow within a Coil is very small related to time frame...A Coil NEVER, could store a charge like a Capacitor does...it is very close to zero point.

We can not just see/judge our analysis based on JUST our "Physical" current (electron) flow within a conductor when we are generating Magnetic Fields, precisely because, a MF goes into Spaces and Dimensions where our flow just CAN NOT pass/exist/travel/develop...We could "Influence" INDIRECTLY that Magnetic Field through our signal flow...However, We MUST have in mind that Field DOES Exchange/Influence and "work" with a Dimension beyond our electron physical flow.

When We Collapse Our Magnetic Field, We MUST ALSO look at what has happened to ALL those "Aligned Spaced Dimensional Particles" at Molecular-Atomic levels, around Our existing Generated MF...and what consequences it brings into our Circuit when the Collapse of Our Field occurs...we CAN NOT disregard this FACT because it DOES Influence Our Flow and in great fashion.

The "Disregarding" of this Real and Existing Field Process of ANY Magnetic Field with the Aether, the Three Dimensional Space, Radiant Energy Field or whatever name will like to be baptized with...have caused ALL the Confusion and Arguments We all face up to now...We must "Thanks" Mr. Hendrik Lorentz for doing this MUTILATION under the "Influential Funding Interests" of J.P Morgan and Thomas A. Edison...as also did Mr. A. Einstein to be able to sustain a "Theory" that Up to NOW...No One have been able to prove it really "functions as He wrote"...

Regards


Ufopolitics

Hi UFO,

While I respect your opinion, I must say there are some serious misconceptions being presented here, which need to be addressed, particularly for the person who asked the difference between bemf and femf, who isnt completely clear on the concepts. I'm normally not one to split hairs but I feel this is more than a semantics issue. Regarding the previous post I responded to:

What most dont take into consideration is that there is a forward emf as well as a bemf both can be used to make free energy, when the magnetic field of an inductor collapses it moves in two directions femf and bemf , the femf which is not as noticeable moves on into the load and bemf runs back to source, the bemf is the one that is most noted because of its destructive spikes but femf is there as well.
dave

"When the inductor collapses" should read "when the magnetic field of the inductor collapses." In addition the FEMF doesn't "move" anywhere. The FEMF is a voltage across the coil, created by the collapsing magnetic field, which induces, or forces, a current to flow IN THE SAME DIRECTION as it was flowing before the "inductive collapse." The BEMF most certainly DOES NOT "run back to the source". Is this what you believe? Simple experiments can prove this. The idea that the when the magnetic field collapses a voltage spike runs back to the source is just flat out wrong. If that was true you couldn't have anything solid state control pulses to a coil, it would destroy the solid state components upon magnetic field collapse. The "inductive collapse" ALWAYS continues to the load in the same direction current has been flowing. In truth, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get the magnetic field to collapse in any either way. The voltage of the spike is directly proportional to how fast the current changes.

When I was a beginner to electronics I was also confused to the term Back EMF. I really thought it was a voltage spike that went backwards. I was misinformed. This is certainly not the case. With your experience I'm sure you know this to be the truth. This can easily be seen by experiment, that I have done.

Regarding the rest of your post(two currents flowing in opposite directions) I can neither agree nor disagree with it, as I have not performed the requisite experiments to form an opinion on it. If you could show an easy test setup to show two currents flowing opposite each other simultaneously then I would happily perform them and report results. Otherwise I have no experience in this area of research.

A Magnetic Field manifests, lives and propagates into Space, Open Space... while a current, an electron flow of OUR generated side, can ONLY travel,move, within a given path called conductor(s). Therefore, A Magnetic Field Can NOT oppose DIRECTLY to any other flow that exist in other Space or Limited Area...except trough ANOTHER Flow directly related to that Magnetic Field that executes within same dimension of Our Flow.

I am thoroughly aware of where the magnetic field lies, outside the conductor, and the direction of the "lines of force". We may be talking about the same thing, however I must refer you to Lenz's Law (not that it is always valid) as to the direction of the magnetic field created by a current flowing. Lenz's law states that an induced magnetic field will ALWAYS oppose the current flow that created it. This is from a conventional point of view, electron flow being the carrier of current. In addition, the magnitude of this "counter-force" is described by Faraday's law:
EMF = di/dt = current changing with respect to time.

By Faradays law one can also easily see the BEMF ceases to exist when the current is unchanging, that is, a constant DC flow. Faraday's Law also describes the magnitude of the "magnetic field collapse". The quicker the current change, the larger EMF is developed. (Think distributor in a car, this is how the spark is created)

The magnetic field collapse produces a Forward EMF, this in itself is not the discharge of the coil. The FEMF forces, or induces a current to flow, this is the "inductive collapse". To simplify, one could think of it as "the magnetic field being exchanged into current." This is the flyback, the discharge transient. What most dont realize is the magnetic field collapse produces a MONOPOLAR longitudinal transient. It becomes obvious when you think about it.

One could also argue that "current" isn't electron flow, but is in fact magnetism flowing. The magnetism flows AROUND the conductor. A perfect conductor reflects all magnetism. However it is that conductors arent perfect, and some of the magnetism begins to "seep in" into the conductor, creating a Back EMF.

Regardless, these phenomena of opposite current flow that you describe certainly do not go by the term "Back EMF". I am aware of your "hot flow" and "her" flow. But these ideas you relate are not called Back EMF. I understand you are promoting your theory of electrodynamics, but having a common language is important. The idea of "capturing the Back EMF" has done much damage to the legitimacy of free energy researchers. It instantly makes one appear uneducated. I contend that having the correct definition and usage of a term helps immensely in understanding the underlying phenomena, as well as relating ideas to others clearly.

Also you describe a coil not being able to contain charges like a capacitor. Here I disagree as well. The coil does not store any charge, or even energy for that matter. The coil stores a magnetic field, potential energy. The amount of magnetic field it can store is the value of inductance the coil has(co-efficient of storage). The inductance depends on number of turns, and the permeability of the core. So if one had a very large inductance value, it could store an immense quantity of magnetic energy when saturated.

I will not get into a prolonged discussion of semantics nor conventional versus alternative theory, but the proper context must be given for beginners asking questions.

[jpolakow]

[IMG]
This model shows both bemf and femf
The magnetic field is electricity, just separated into voltage and amperage.
dave

I'm not trying to be condescending, but where do you get these ideas from?

The magnetic field is separated into voltage and amperage? How would that even be possible? I have never heard a single source describe the magnetic field as being divided into voltage and amperage. The magnetic field is neither. Would you describe a magnet as having volts and amps?

A CHANGING magnetic field can "force", or induce a voltage across two points, and thus induce a current to flow, but the magnetic field is neither. In fact, it is the other way around. The combination of voltage and amperage, what some might describe as current, (electric energy flow), is composed solely by the magnetic and dielectric fields.

[Dave45]

:
Originally Posted by Dave45 View Post
What most dont take into consideration is that there is a forward emf as well as a bemf both can be used to make free energy, when the magnetic field of an inductor collapses it moves in two directions femf and bemf , the femf which is not as noticeable moves on into the load and bemf runs back to source, the bemf is the one that is most noted because of its destructive spikes but femf is there as well.
dave

"When the inductor collapses" should read "when the magnetic field of the inductor collapses." In addition the FEMF doesn't "move" anywhere. The FEMF is a voltage across the coil, created by the collapsing magnetic field, which induces, or forces, a current to flow IN THE SAME DIRECTION as it was flowing before the "inductive collapse." The BEMF most certainly DOES NOT "run back to the source". Is this what you believe? Simple experiments can prove this. The idea that the when the magnetic field collapses a voltage spike runs back to the source is just flat out wrong. If that was true you couldn't have anything solid state control pulses to a coil, it would destroy the solid state components upon magnetic field collapse. The "inductive collapse" ALWAYS continues to the load in the same direction current has been flowing. In truth, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get the magnetic field to collapse in any either way. The voltage of the spike is directly proportional to how fast the current changes.

Why do you need a snubber circuit when driving and ignition coil
What is the purpose of a flywheel diode

You say that bemf does not run back to source then why does the source need protection?

[jpolakow]

Why do you need a snubber circuit when driving and ignition coil
What is the purpose of a flywheel diode

You say that bemf does not run back to source then why does the source need protection?

The purpose of the flywheel diode is to safely dissipate the voltage spike of the "collapse". Here is the wikipedia page: Flyback diode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at the diagram. The diode is not between the battery and the coil. Look how the current would flow, from the positive, through the coil, through the resistor, through the switch, back to the negative terminal or ground. That is the direction of current flow. Now when the switch is opened at t0, current wants to maintain flow, but cannot continue through the switch.

Instead, after the resistor, current takes a right turn and goes through the diode, and then back into the coil. The current keeps flowing in a "loop" through the coil resistor and diode until it has all been safely dissipated through the resistor. Why is the diode pointing that way? So it doesnt act like a short circuit around the coil during normal operation. The diode prevent current from the battery flowing past it, but allows the inductive collapse to circulate through it until the transient has been disipated

[boguslaw]

jpolakow

Could you please explain how to you understand the origin of BEMF in case of single coil and in case of transformer ? What is also the origin of Lenz law in this two situations ? Surely we don't understand something.

I'm saying that because you mentioned a flyback diode description from wikipedia. If you take exactly that picture like presented there but replace L and R by inductive resistor of nichrome wire, if you put additional diode to make a pulsing DC positive going to this inductive resistor and if you pulse it sharply you would got more efficient heater then any pure resistive heaters.

[Dave45]

[Allcanadian]

Concerning Bemf it may help to understand the basic theory.

First, Emf is Electro-motive-force which relates to the force imparted on a charge. Conductors are made of atoms.... Proton(+), Neutron, Electron(-) however only the electrons are considered mobile and these are called "free electrons". The Protons cannot move thus when a Proton moves the conductor is said to be moving and when a free electron moves a current is said to be flowing.

A moving charge, a free electron, produces a magnetic field and when a charge moves in any way this is considered an electric current which produces a magnetic field.

Now consider a coil of wire, if we connect a source such as a battery to the coil forming a circuit then free electrons flow from the negative(-) terminal through the coil and into the positive(+) terminal of the battery. This flow of free electrons through the coil is an electric current which produces an expanding magnetic field in the coil. Now we have a problem, the flow of electrons through the coil is due to an EMF from the source battery ... a force which causes the electrons to move. However the moving electrons in the coil produce an expanding magnetic field and this expanding magnetic field is cutting the conductors of the very same coil. This expanding field induces another EMF, a force pushing the free electrons in the opposite direction to that of the battery.

Here we can see two forces at work, one an EMF or force acting on the free electrons from the source battery which will cause an electric current to flow in the coil and two another EMF a force acting on the same free electrons in the opposite direction due to the expanding magnetic field which we call "self-induction" or a Cemf ... Counter Electro-Motive-Force, counter meaning in opposition to the other force we call the EMF.

Now the terminology can get confusing because different people use the terms in different ways however an EMF generally refers to a source such as a battery or generator which produces an "Force", an EMF causing an electric current to flow in a circuit.

A Cemf (counter EMF)generally refers to a "Force" an EMF which acts in the opposite direction of the source EMF due to the property of self-induction.

A Bemf (back EMF) generally refers to the action of a Cemf in an electric motor or generator and this Cemf is due to the self-induction of the motor/generator coils.

The electrical phenomena most here are talking about is what I call an "Inductive Discharge". That is when an electric current is flowing in an inductance, a coil, and the current is disrupted then the coil will try to maintain the current flow. Now consider what is happening, a source EMF produces a current which produces an expanding magnetic field in our coil. This expanding magnetic field produces a Cemf (self-induction)which opposes the Emf from the source.
Now if we remove the source Emf what happens?, well if an expanding magnetic field produces a Cemf opposing the source Emf then a contracting(collapsing)magnetic field should produce an Emf opposite to the Cemf. It just so happens that an Emf opposite to the Cemf is the same as the source Emf and the contracting magnetic field induces a current in the same direction as the source battery or generator which was disconnected from our circuit.

Regards
AC

[jpolakow]

[IMG][/IMG]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but where do you get these ideas from? Pure voltage and pure current? There is no such thing as pure current except possibly in a superconductor. Perhaps it would be easier if you tried to explain what you think is happening.

You have it backwards in your picture. Also you label the bemf and femf as if they are currents, which they are not. The femf can induce a current however. BEMF and FEMF are short for Back ElectroMotive Force, and Forward Electromotive Force. Electromotive Force can be thought of as "Voltage forcing a current to flow." That is, it is in volts, it is NOT a current

Only as a positive, helpful recommendation, I would suggest you try to learn the basics of electric circuits before trying to offer advice to others. Im offering constructive advice to you because there were plenty of other people who have helped me along with my understanding of electricity. And if you listen to what others have to say, use careful discernment, theres a lot of BS out there.

[Ufopolitics]

Hello JPolakow

Hello JPolakow,

Great and excellent response..I really like this type of debates, knowing it comes from a very qualified and knowledgeable person like you, Sir!

...It is known that Maxwell's electrodynamics—as usually understood at the present time—when applied to moving bodies, leads to asymmetries which do not appear to be inherent in the phenomena...
— Albert Einstein, On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies

As We all know...A. Einstein also disregarded Asymmetry as well as H. Lorentz...


Now first, let me say, JPolakow, that everything you wrote above...I am in complete agreement with. Excellent resume.

The only thing I have noticed...(And this is exactly the same issue that I have been noticing/discussing all along since my early years of Engineering Studies...This Debates have been "My Main Course" for the last Thirty Plus Years with all my Colleagues... )

I have noticed that most, well knowledgeable Individuals in this Fields...keep only seeing/analyzing/calculating all Electromagnetism Phenomena, ONLY and BASICALLY, from the Conductor/Electron behavior SIDE...While dedicating a Minimal observation/Calculation/Analysis to the Magnetic Field Spectrum, and all its Patterns behavior.

As I understand the Magnetic Field is an "Intangible" Body...Invisible and very hard to evaluate in most cases without the proper and right equipment, which I also understand is very expensive... and requires many hours of dedicated testing...to be able to "See into the Invisible"...by just Touching-Feeling...

It is a completely wrong Scientific Approach, when analyzing an Electromagnetic Phenomena...to just concentrate in the means that produce it (In this case the Electron/Current Flow Parameters behavior)...and NOT on the result ..."The Final Product"....The Magnetic Field itself. We are "working" ONLY this way on ONE SIDE OF THE WHOLE EQUATION...simple as that.
This way We will NEVER have a complete understanding of the Whole Process.

All Your conclusions, statements and logic are perfectly fine...however, ignoring the other side and its consequences to all Your statements makes them simply, incomplete.

First of all, We MUST realize, that Most of all ancient Laws related to everything we are ALL discussing here...are based on CLOSED CIRCUITS...From the Energy Conservation Laws, the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics, etc,etc all the way to the Kirchhoff Laws...ALL...Relate to closed loop circuits.

OPEN CIRCUITS...deliver a complete 180 degrees opposed, wide and vast Horizon of New Concepts that have been ignored, disregarded and therefore, disappeared from our Scope of Study...for many years that add more than a Century.

An Electromagnetic Field IS an OPEN System looking at it NOT only from our "Generation" side...I mean, why do we have to analyze the means that produced an "Artificially Generated Magnetic Field"...when we KNOW that there ARE vast patterns of Magnetic Fields without ANY need of "Circuits" all over our Planet, they exist in our Skies, in the Water, in the Ground..in our ALL Space?

At the time those Ancient Laws were created...None of those great Scientists had access to the State of the Art Solid State Pulsing Systems we all have nowadays...That not only can create "Hybrid Circuits" where Open-Close is part of their everyday "Game" and at Giga and Mega Hertz Frequencies? those "Toys"...in those times existed only in their Science Fiction Books...

Why do we have to keep limiting ourselves so much?

If we REALLY want to get DEEP into the Roots of this...the first thing we MUST realize...Is that an Electron is part of an Atom...no matter what...and that Atom have other components...like a proton, a neutron...and a Nuclei...Now, that "electron"...does not "fly out" of the whole Atom by itself...unless We separate it through an expensive Atomic Particle Fission Process...BUT We are not doing that here...
As, an Electron DOES NOT only "lives" inside our conductors either...they are all over our Environment...including inside Electromagnetic Fields.

When we create an Electronic flow, based on just Two Ends, we are just setting an "Electron Transmitting Side", that is just an "Overpopulated Electronic Area" or a Negative side...and an "Electron Receiving Side", or "Lack of Electrons"...a Positive Side.
We have created our own laws and Parameters to Measure that Electronic Flow Network, based just on Potential and Intensity...just Two simple readings based on electronic population in a given cross section (I) as the measurement also of Electronic Population between two ends(V)...
We all must realize that this Procedures, are not precise and accurate measurements at all, when it comes to complex forms of Electronic Signaling Protocols...like interrupted and reversed flows at very high frequencies in our State of the Art Electronic Circuits and Components...Therefore, it would be understood all this kind of "Confusion" in our readings, like sudden spikes, randomly developed increments and other we call "Parasitic behaviors" manifested in our systems... When all we have "available" to Calculate them...are those rudimentary Laws...made, more than a Century ago...when ANY of this electronic processing was able to be performed.


You have mentioned a Spark Plug in a Vehicle Distributor System...very well...let's get inside the "Vehicle Industry"...As I am very knowledgeable about this fields...
I will use as example the Following Comparison:

Now applying the Statement I wrote above...about our "Old, Ancient Rudimentary Methods"up to now... to Measure nowadays Electronic State of the Art Electronic signaling...

Ok, You "used" to be able to "Check/Diagnose/Measure/Repair" a Vehicle, let's say 30-40 years ago...by a simple Test Lamp and an Analog Multi-Meter ...Now, as Vehicles have developed State of the Art Electronic Central Processing Units (CPU's)...attached to all kind of Sensors...detecting/reading/sending all kind of different data flowing to that CPU...for it to Process and send Commands to all kind of Actuators/Executors at so fast of responses...that if You "attempt" to walk to that Vehicle with your "OBSOLETE BY NOW" Analog Multi-Meter and your Test Lamp and "EXPECT" you could have a complete Print-Out Diagnose Codes like a Properly Developed Equipment to do all those Scanning through another series of CPU's...related to the Issues with your Vehicle...You will be dreaming my friend...


Well...The SAME-EXACT "ISSUE" APPLIES HERE...We are ALL trying to Fix a State of the Art Systems/Circuits with our Obsolete Test Lamp and and our Analog Multi-Meters.


Regards



Ufopolitics