Mikhail Dmitriyev - Input 1000 W, Output near 3000 W.

[soundiceuk]

Using a magnet at approx the 3 o'clock position to repel the weights downward to increase the torque also becomes an option with the diametrically magnetised cylinder magnets.

[soundiceuk]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ikrznic8j9omlgu/OGof5XoUVV?m

The latest Stage 4 video has been added.

The input motor consumption is around 40 watts.

The replicator is away for a week.

Looking good to me



Paul

[Gdez]

Soundiceuk,
Even though my build is going very slow, i have enjoyed all the videos and the thread. I actually like being able to see what other people are doing and replication one vids and pics are fantastic. While i am building my model my own way I am still interested in participating financially to your replication. I have never used paypal and i was wondering if you could explain it a bit so I can put my donation in.
I am starting to see that the 7:00 part of the wheel could really work also.
I was disappointed that replicator 1's bearings were failing, and From what I've seen I think I will skip the investment for now in my model.
I like replicator 1's adjustable "kick" wheel design, it seems to work well and you can experiment around with it. I think because I have limited time at the moment I would like to get the main frame of my build finished( frame , main wheel) done and then start with 8 hanging weights. I know mikhail says that 32 are critical but this will allow me to experiment while building parts. I will be interested to see what I can do with 8 weights and it will help me to figure out details as I go. I am going to make the hanging weights longer while I am using 8 weights, as I will be able to chop them down as I add.(8,16,24,32).
Purely primitives has also mentioned something about a ramp. I think that I would like to try a fan belt style "ramp", instead of a kick wheel at first and just see what happens when I let the weights fall of the ramp without the oneway bearings. The oneway bearings seem to be a weakness in this model, especially because of cost. From watching mikhails and replicator 1's video's, it seems that you get a steady shape of rotation with the "hanging weights, at a determined speed. Maybe with the rolling ramp idea this will actaually be simplified. with a ramp that carries the weights out, a simple catch mechanism would be easy to figure out. One downside is that I think mikhails machine may depend on the kick to give the weights a"'moment of weightlessnes" as in some of milkcovics devices. Replicator 1's model seems to work better when it get's up to speed, even with the bearing issues.
This week I should be able to finish my "main wheel"and start experimenting.
It seems that I should try to figure out a catch mechanism that is cheap, easy to build, and will work at various positions, such as what has been discussed.(1 to 2 o'clock and 6 to 9 o'clock).
While I can't have quantum physics discussions with anybody, I do feel that from what I have been researching' Mikhails machine should work. I have been watching his work almost from the beginning and it just seems to make sense to me.
This thread has been really good and even if Mikhail's machine doesn't work as stated, it will be a good learning experience. It is good to see that this has been a positive thread, with no bull**** and bickering, just motivated people with an idea. This is what will cause success.
Thanks all,
Greg

[purelyprimitives]

Hi Greg,
Only have a minute to write so this will be quick. The fan belt idea didn't work out as well as I thought it would. If you could trace the movement of the weight being rotated in, it takes the form of a shallow arc opposite the arc of rotation. I have made a ramp in this shape and so far it seems to be the best approach. I just wanted to give you a 'head's up' so you didn't invest in a belt. More later...
Charlie

[woopy]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ikrznic8j9omlgu/OGof5XoUVV?m

The latest Stage 4 video has been added.

The input motor consumption is around 40 watts.

The replicator is away for a week.

Looking good to me



Paul

Waowww!!

Thank's Paul

That last video from the replicator is very good.

Because i go on thinking that the strong swing of the weights between 1 and 3 o'clock is a big part of this system. And the replicator , with his kickingwheel (as per Mikhail ) , can get a very strong swing and a large deflexion. Bravo.

I do not think that the 7 0'clock lifting or ramping will work usefully , because you need energy to lift the weights without so much return on investment (because friction even magnetic and especially because you act against the rotation direction, which is not the case for the kickingwheel).

What i think is , that the energy taken by the motor of the kickingwheel is compensated by the energy produce by the swing at 2 o'clock. So it is a net zero result at this point. But after 2 0'oclock the weights are strongly deflected and a net positive result can occure by the imbalanced wheel..
Imho the combination of those 2 forces is the way to achieve a positive result.

The wheel must not spin too fast, or the weight will be also deflected between 6 and 9 0'clock and diminish the imbalance effect.

( beware that at 6 o'clock the weight are completely deflected downwards and if the wheel spins too fast the weights maintain approximately that position in relation to the radius of the main wheel, when climbing up to 9 o'clock. The oneway bearings are not helping there)

So for the replicator there is now to check if the main wheel can deliver more power than the quicking wheel motor. And perhaps he is very near from the proof of the GRAAL.

Anyway big bravo to the replicator

Good luck at all

Laurent

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Around 8watts not 40w

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ikrznic8j9omlgu/OGof5XoUVV?m

The latest Stage 4 video has been added.

The input motor consumption is around 40 watts.

The replicator is away for a week.

Looking good to me



Paul

Hi Paul and all

As I see it the power input as an average is 8 watts

@ full speed = 4.3v @ between 1.7a low and 2.35a high
therefore average amps 2 X 4.3 = 8.6watts

nice video

regards

Mike

[gene gene]

Hi Paul,

I too have no paypal account and would like to make a donation.

Would a U.S. postal money order work? If so where to send it?

Nice looking family. Wish you all well.

regards, Gene

[purelyprimitives]

I do not think that the 7 0'clock lifting or ramping will work usefully , because you need energy to lift the weights without so much return on investment (because friction even magnetic and especially because you act against the rotation direction, which is not the case for the kickingwheel).

Hi Laurent,
I would argue in favor of the 7:00 lift. I don't disagree that there will be some energy lost in changing the trajectory of the weights but I believe the gains will far outweigh the loss. Even in some of Mikhail's earlier videos he shows this concept. First, there's the fairly obvious increase in torque from the greater overbalance but less obvious, is the concept of Moment of Inertia. Moving the weights in, causes the wheel to gain rotational energy as it attempts to conserve the Moment of Inertia. Perhaps Mikhail is revisiting this in prototype 12 with the smaller design.
Charlie

[i_ron]

Hi Laurent,
I would argue in favor of the 7:00 lift. I don't disagree that there will be some energy lost in changing the trajectory of the weights but I believe the gains will far outweigh the loss. Even in some of Mikhail's earlier videos he shows this concept. First, there's the fairly obvious increase in torque from the greater overbalance but less obvious, is the concept of Moment of Inertia. Moving the weights in, causes the wheel to gain rotational energy as it attempts to conserve the Moment of Inertia. Perhaps Mikhail is revisiting this in prototype 12 with the smaller design.
Charlie

I agree Charlie, further more, while there might be an expenditure of energy to bring the weights in, this is only over a short distance, Then the one way clutch holds them in up to 12:00 which is a free ride. Having the weights in on the left side of the wheel allows for a higher wheel speed, which enhances the right side throw out, a win win situation.

Moving the weights in, causes the wheel to gain rotational energy as it attempts to conserve the Moment of Inertia.

True, I had missed that!

Ron

[purelyprimitives]

Hi Greg,
Only have a minute to write so this will be quick. The fan belt idea didn't work out as well as I thought it would. If you could trace the movement of the weight being rotated in, it takes the form of a shallow arc opposite the arc of rotation. I have made a ramp in this shape and so far it seems to be the best approach. I just wanted to give you a 'head's up' so you didn't invest in a belt. More later...
Charlie

On second thought... this could still be done by adding some rollers under the belt to create the curve. I'll try this out and let you know.

[soundiceuk]

While i am building my model my own way I am still interested in participating financially to your replication. I have never used paypal and i was wondering if you could explain it a bit so I can put my donation in.

Hi Paul,

I too have no paypal account and would like to make a donation.

Would a U.S. postal money order work? If so where to send it?

Nice looking family. Wish you all well.

regards, Gene

I'm glad your enjoying the videos. Much respect to the replicator.

Michael thanks for the observation. I wonder how he got 40 watts

Thanks to all for the kind words!

If you send an email to paultownley@rocketmail.com I will be able to send you a link that will enable any NON PayPal user to send funds safely and securely via PayPal using any credit or debit card.

Alternatively I can provide my address and you could send cash.

I'm unsure about a US postal order.

Got to run for now.

Best regards,

Paul

[RAMSET]

Question

Paul
This "Kick" and hold [rachet] aspect of the wheel has me
pondering something about "modeling"this whole thing on a PC?

Is there Data available for moving an object at the moment it is weightless on the wheel ?
Or
Is additional input by a spinning wheel at this precise moment of weightlessness on another spinning wheel playing by a different set of rules?

I realize "weightless" may not be the best term here, however I believe the intent of the question is Clear!

Just having a bit of a lunch break and pondering the
"what makes it work?" part.

Thx
Chet

[soundiceuk]

UPDATE 6th NOVEMBER 2012

Gravity Wheel Group Project Contributors

soundiceuk (Paul Townley) £100
Regster £20
Drak $15
Kind US friend $85
PhysicsProf (Steven Jones) $15
Swampwalker £25


TOTAL IN GROUP POT £217 (APPROX $347 USD)


Inventory

11 x 20mm OD x 6mm ID x 20mm Length N42 Diametrically Magnetised Neodymium Magnets

2 x 20mm ID Main Shaft Bearings

1 x Stainless Steel 304 Main Shaft

1 x Diametric Cylinder Magnet Basic Test Rig


Just had the first quote back from the specialist steel fabrication company.

Main Wheel

£80 Water jet cutting 32 x steel rods, 1 x steel disc (7 holes), 1 x steel band (64 holes), steel band rolled.

£80 Materials

£280 Labour - Assembly - Jig and weld

TOTAL £440 + Value Added Tax @ 0.20% = £528

Tolerance + - 0.1mm

Wet spray in a standard colour is no extra charge.


A 1:2 scale wheel would cost £360 + Value Added Tax = £432



One Way Bearing Housings

£14 each + Value Added Tax @ 0.20% = £16.80

TOTAL = £537.60


Turnaround = 1 week from payment.

All processes done in house.


It is great to know that they have the capability to manufacture these parts up to the maximum size possible with what is available on the shelves materials / bearings wise.


It sounds very expensive, but when you consider this version is supposed to be good for 10kw, then it is peanuts compared to the size of an engine and more importantly the tank to hold an unlimited amount of fuel.

Personally I think Mikhail's design crossed with my design using magnets and a permanent magnet generator will produce far more than 10kw.

For a gravity wheel that has a diameter of 1.3m that is MIND BLOWING!!!!!


I have also been in contact with my old neighbour of 25 years who started out fabricating in 1995. He has been in business on his own for about 4 years now.

He hasn't got water jet cutting or laser cutting facilities but can outsource that part.

He is now waiting for a quote back from the laser cutting company so that he can quote me for the main wheel.

Laser cutting is cheaper than water jet cutting, but the finish is not as good.

Machining is the most expensive production method because of the labour involved but has the best finish and highest accuracy.

Obviously finish is not what is important here but tolerances are, because of balancing issues.


Whilst I was researching one way bearings, I have noticed that typically imperial sizes are a lot cheaper than metric.

However, the link below offers some budget bearings that are really cheap metric bearings which fit into the current design and have the ability to be uprated for 26mm wide branded bearings if the validation was successful. Then the used bearings could be passed on to another replicator.

HF1216 Budget Needle Roller Clutch Type One Way Bearing 12x18x16mm Simply Bearings Ltd

The problems seen with the bearings in Replication 1 videos stems from using more than one manufacturers bearings.

I believe the shafts were all sized to the first batch of bearings received. Then when the other bearings arrived they were not exactly the same fit as they were from a different manufacturer.

The replicator said he has some more bearings that fit his shafts properly on order.


"Yeah, It uses a little more power though, I would say around 10 to 15 watts, I didn't show the power supply during that clip, I should have, but I was in a hurry to get packed and stuff. Sorry about the 40 watts misunderstanding, I was just using that as an example"

"The 40 watts was kind of an example and a calculation on the fly. The amperage jumps up when it has to throw a weight out then drops back down until the next weight comes by."

"As soon as I get home and get the kicker wheel re-padded, I'll move the power supply over so it can be seen and set up another camera with dual display so it can be seen at all times. Then crank up the juice and see what shakes loose. I ran it right before I left and it really started ripping the foam up because kicker wheel was not spinning fast enough and the nylon all-thread was just cutting into the foam like rough sandpaper. It should be smooth plastic, but the all thread I had laying around. Once I get the covering for the wheel it should be ok for a while. It wasn't spinning fast enough because I didn't have it turned up enough, trying to adjust it as the wheel speeds up is a game in itself. I understand why Mikhail tied it with a chain. Always the correct speed then."

I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting more than excited!!!!!!!!!



Best regards,

Paul


PS.

Thinking ahead.

What do you think of my idea?

I already have a list of people that will buy these in kit form.

They will happily pay twice what they cost to build in order to perpetuate the technology and receive a great product.

Every group contributor will be able to have their own unit in the order of first come first served.

Would anyone agree that Mikhail should receive 50% of the extra revenue and the other 50% go towards the next unit.

When there are enough units built we should do a COLLOSAL global alternative media release.

By then I will have co-ordinated a full colour assembly manual and worked out the best design with help of a CAD specialist and Finite Element Analysis specialist.

[soundiceuk]

Paul
This "Kick" and hold [rachet] aspect of the wheel has me
pondering something about "modeling" this whole thing on a PC?

Is there Data available for moving an object at the moment it is weightless on the wheel ?
Or
Is additional input by a spinning wheel at this precise moment of weightlessness on another spinning wheel playing by a different set of rules?

I realize "weightless" may not be the best term here, however I believe the intent of the question is Clear!

Just having a bit of a lunch break and pondering the
"what makes it work?" part.

Thx
Chet

Hi Chet, I really don't know if the data exists at this stage.

I do know that once we have a validated replication it will lead to finding out how deep the CAD rabbit hole goes.

My guess is that the static calculations can be made, but not the moving calculations other than through live testing, mapping and modifying the CAD package rules to suit.


If the technology can be shown to work via a global release, then the best CAD guys in the world are sure to surface, followed by a bunch of hungry to learn students, followed by the engineering veterans with their tales between their legs.

As always the cream rises to the top.

My observation is this technology is a combination of four things.

Frequency, adding impulse to centrifugal force, mechanical advantage (one way bearings) + the force that Markus pointed out the moment on the weight pivot.

Anything on top of this already amazing combination is an added bonus.

All the best,

Paul

[soundiceuk]

I still think the best way to start this group replication is with 8 deflecting elements and an experiment with 11 neo magnets to see what speed / torque can be generated with no input power.

Compare that figure to 1, 2, 4 & 8.

Hopefully that will provide a mathematical equation that can help to calculate possible output and understand what is going on.

I live right next door to a company that has a dynamometer.

I will ask them how much for a test run and find out about anchorage.