Mikhail Dmitriyev - Input 1000 W, Output near 3000 W.

[i_ron]

Where?

Thats ok Ron, my idea was to make the biggest posible weights for Replicator 1 who is in your neck of the woods.

He doesn't like the 50 questions he gets from machine shops.

I just thought rather than spend the group money on a new replication. I could pay myself for the weights and if Replicator 1's device is not sucessful return the money back to the contributors.

My money is on it working though, the theory being that the more weight used, the more extra power we will see.

How much does 2" bar cost?

All the best,

Paul

Hi Paul,

Where is Rep 1? Off list is fine if he wants to keep it that way.

I got my 2 inch bar from the local Metal Super markets, not cheap at $35 ca. for 2 feet (610 mm) this was enough for 6 stations, so $200 for 32 stations and only half the weight.

I have been building UHF antennas and not the wheel, next week before I get back to it...

Ron

[soundiceuk]

Hi Ron, Replicator 1 is from East Coast. When you say only half weight do you mean 3kg instead of Mikhail's 6kg?


Update 23rd November 2012

With this next post I am not suggesting we should deviate from Mikhail's design.

This is mainly because Mikhail's prototype 11 doesn't use magnets. Most of you will know that the neodymium market is pretty unstable when it comes to cost. Have any of your heard what happened to boron magnets?

What I am suggesting is that you please consider my new design ideas and provide constuctive feedback which will hopefully allow myself and/or others to decide whether to pursue this direction as well as Mikhail's invention.

I believe frequency is the key to Mikhail's device and it is this factor which allows a torque to be sustained without the device grinding to a halt.

I know we have yet to see this validated but I don't think we are far away with Replicator 1's device.



Mikhail's invention works by moving the centre of gravity and the greater the offset of the centre of gravity the better the device works.


In my latest experiment I have taken a different approach.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h815s1dk8m...Part%201.MOV?m

In this experiment I am trying to work out a different method to achieve the same goal.

Please watch this experiment and try to imagine the same thing but with:

a) Much heavier weights.
b) 32 weights / magnets instead of 4 weights.
c) A fast linear actuator holding the deflecting magnet.

Now you have imagined those things contemplate these:

d) 4 linear actuators, one at 12, 9, 6 & 3 o'clock.
e) accerator pedal / chip to control speed.

Ok now what about this:

f) Square steel or lead bar for weights.
g) Flat neodymium magnets fixed to the bar weights.


I haven't got any flat neos yet, but based on what happens with the diametrically magnetised magnets and the field they give off. My educated guess is flat manets won't need moving backwards and forwards and the device will self start and keep running.

If I am correct then I may have stumbled upon the ultimate engine design because with 4 or more deflectors the engine would be capable of going in any direction on any axis.

The flat neo deflectors could also be actuator controlled with throttle too.

Maybe I'm sounding a little too optimistic. Feel free to shoot me down. I'm assuming no one to our knowledge in history has tried this design before using 32 elements.


My friend's Dad who is a carpenter is making a wooden frame for me.

The frame / bearings / shaft will be the basis for the 1:3 scale replica of Mikhail's prototype 11.

The weight of the copper tube, magnet, aluminium thread, nuts and washers per element is 142g.

I have some lead shot I can fill the copper pipes with for another experiment, but the hardboard wheels are not really up to the job of much more weight. They were made very quickly and roughly just to test this idea.

Any thoughts good or bad welcome.



All the best,

Paul

[soundiceuk]

Update 25th November 2012

Some new pics in Replicator 1's folder.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8ly3pxtxrdf2jn7/snKKQv73-F?m


Replicator 1 said:

Well, I have all of the elements on and it looks very nice.



Except I have a problem with the bearings again. I did not get the shafts back in the same spots as the bearings they were matched with. Stupid me forgot to mark which bearings went with which shafts, so it would be a musical chairs game trying to find the right sequence for no slippage. Good news is I have the correct shafts on order but I only ordered 9 of them. I only have a couple elements that are slipping so 9 will fix the problem. Bad news is they won't be here till thursday of next week. Tomorrow I will attempt a little musical chairs and try to get them so they won't slip. I don't want to jam anything in the bearings because now they are epoxied in.

I went a bought a $20 drill and took it apart and am going to use that with all gears in tact to get more torque. I don't think I need as much speed as I had originally thought, so the original drill would have worked. I can't use that anymore as when I took it completely apart, ball bearings were falling all over the floor, lol.



I did hook the new drill up to the shaft the windblue was hooked to (to act as a generator) and spun the wheel by hand. I hooked a 50watt 12 volt light bulb directly up to the motor and it would slightly glow just as the windblue would do, but it seemed as though the wheel was much easier to turn. I'm going to go buy another drill exactly the same model and use it as a generator also. That way same motor in, and same motor out. Not sure if this is the right thing to do but I'm going to try it.



I have ordered these magnets to carry out some further experiments on the non deflecting element version.



F500 - 50 x 10 x 1.5mm thick N35 Neodymium Magnet - 1.9kg Pull (x10) (B43/O)

The wooden frame has been made, now I'm planning on getting two 3/4" wooden wheels made and adding two off the shelf 1kg dumbell weights to each copper tube.

See what difference is has with 2.142kg instead of 0.142kg.

Giving a new total of 8.568kg instead of 0.568kg


For the 1:3 scale replication I am pondering different ideas for hub design.

The simplest hub I can think of would use a steel tube and steel plate welded together. I think this would be cheaper than machining from a block of steel.

I have even considered welding a shaft collar to a steel plate or even to a steel disc itself.

What do you guys think the best method is for making a hub for a small metal wheel?

All the best,

Paul

[i_ron]

Update 25th November 2012



I have even considered welding a shaft collar to a steel plate or even to a steel disc itself.

What do you guys think the best method is for making a hub for a small metal wheel?

All the best,

Paul

Paul,

In North America "weld on hubs" are a stock item, then all you need is a disc or sprocket to weld on to it

Weld on hub | Flickr - Photo Sharing!






Ron

[i_ron]

Flood

Paul,

In North America "weld on hubs" are a stock item, then all you need is a disc or sprocket to weld on to it


Ron

Hi Paul,

How did you do in the flood, was it close?

Hope you and family are alright

Ron

[soundiceuk]

Hi Ron, thanks for the concern

There is a water passage behind where I live and our house is on the middle of a hill.

My friend opened his back door and had his whole downstairs flooded, but luckily we didn't see a drop in our house.



I think I know what "off list" means but I don't want to assume anything.

Depending on how Replicator 1's next experiments turn out will leave him to decide whether to beef up the wheel he has to the max or start a new wheel possibly bigger than Mikhail's.

Have you got a lathe and milling machine?


Regarding my experiments / group replication I believe it is best to use the 20mm bearings and shaft I already have.

Please can you show me an example of what you would buy if you had a 20mm shaft.

When I looked at weldable hubs I was overwhelmed with choice.

How was the one you are using manufactured?

Best regards,

Paul

[i_ron]

metric

Hi Ron, thanks for the concern

There is a water passage behind where I live and our house is on the middle of a hill.

My friend opened his back door and had his whole downstairs flooded, but luckily we didn't see a drop in our house.



I think I know what "off list" means but I don't want to assume anything.

Depending on how Replicator 1's next experiments turn out will leave him to decide whether to beef up the wheel he has to the max or start a new wheel possibly bigger than Mikhail's.

Have you got a lathe and milling machine?


Regarding my experiments / group replication I believe it is best to use the 20mm bearings and shaft I already have.

Please can you show me an example of what you would buy if you had a 20mm shaft.

When I looked at weldable hubs I was overwhelmed with choice.

How was the one you are using manufactured?

Best regards,

Paul

Hi Paul,

You had gone quiet and so I wondered how you had fared. Good to hear you are high and dry!

"Off list" means not in the forum (list) but by private email

Yes I have a 300 by 914 Lathe and a home made milling machine.

I can't show you a 20 mm hub as I have never seen one. In the early '70's Canada stole the lead on the US and went metric. Well the Yankee's didn't so we are out on a limb, neither fish nor fowl. Our temps and "mileage" is metric but plywood is still 4 feet by 8 feet, all the 2 x4's and shaft sizes are"imperial" as it should be, mind you. ball bearings and spark plugs have always been metric. And no hope for any change in our status soon.

So on hubs you will have to find whats local. Be aware that the next level in design are "taper lock" hubs and so what you will find are predominately hubs with a tapered bore, not what we want at this stage.

Here is what I have for a one inch diameter shaft, a bought hub for about 7 bux and if you make a continuous weld around it will nicely shrink the hub! Here I have just hit it with three 'tacks' with the wire feed. The discs are 'salvage' from 15 inch speakers, just the right size for this app.

hub3 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Ron

[soundiceuk]

Cheers for that Ron, we have the same problem with metric / imperial here.

Tyre (tire) sizes are the strangest globally with metric, then imperial appearing in the same size eg. 255/50R18

255mm width, then sidewall 50% of the 255mm, then 18" rim.

Really weird.

Sheet wood from some shops in UK is metric and other shops imperial.

We seem to deal in both but lean more towards metric.


Update 27th November 2012

I received the flat magnets today.

The conclusion I have reached after experimenting is that the diametric magnets are the only usable magnets to produce the desired rotation.

This means to obtain any usable power, fast linear actuators must be incorporated into the design.

I have decided to shelve this design for now.


I will now be solely concentrating on the Solidworks design of the 1:3 & 1:2 replica whilst we await the new results from Replicator 1.

All the best,

Paul

[purelyprimitives]

Here's my side project looking at alternative ways to rotate the weights. In this video I'm using a mercury switch in an attempt to hold the arm level but as you can see there is still a lot of latency even with this switch. I'm going to try a different rotation scheme for my next version.

Even though this isn't optimal, an interesting thing is that it is completely scalable. Want more torque...just make the arm longer.

Comments, criticisms always welcome...

Dmitriyev Weight Rotation Test 1 - YouTube

[soundiceuk]

Very interesting experiment.

How much torque do you expect at main shaft with your setup?

How many watts does it consume?


Seeing some linear actuators that did 10m/sec got me thinking too on my non deflecting element version. Those magnets I have could fire a lot of weight around the main shaft. The video is deceiving. I'm not sure why I thought flat magnets would be better. They didn't even come close to the diametrically magnetized ones.


I like off the shelf stuff, what do you think of these for my 20mm shaft?

BF-12 Bolt on Hub - Taper Bush :: BearingBoys.co.uk

1210-20 Taperlock Bush :: BearingBoys.co.uk

I think using one would be fine, what do you think?

I also wondered whether the disc would just need a 90mm bore and no step.

A few missing dimensions from the diagram leaves me guessing.


I haven't actually found any weldable hubs without a taper bore.

They are all quite cheap though which is good.

Any thoughts welcome.

[soundiceuk]

Also where did you get the hubs from for the swing arm?

[drak]

Here's my side project looking at alternative ways to rotate the weights. In this video I'm using a mercury switch in an attempt to hold the arm level but as you can see there is still a lot of latency even with this switch. I'm going to try a different rotation scheme for my next version.

Even though this isn't optimal, an interesting thing is that it is completely scalable. Want more torque...just make the arm longer.

Comments, criticisms always welcome...

Dmitriyev Weight Rotation Test 1 - YouTube

That looks good purelyprimitives, very nice quality. Are you going to try to measure output on this one? Thats a cool way of getting power to the arm.

[Gdez]

Awesome

Good work!

[i_ron]

thoughts

I like off the shelf stuff, what do you think of these for my 20mm shaft?

BF-12 Bolt on Hub - Taper Bush :: BearingBoys.co.uk

1210-20 Taperlock Bush :: BearingBoys.co.uk

I think using one would be fine, what do you think?

I also wondered whether the disc would just need a 90mm bore and no step.

A few missing dimensions from the diagram leaves me guessing.


I haven't actually found any weldable hubs without a taper bore.

They are all quite cheap though which is good.

Any thoughts welcome.

Bullet proof

The 90 mm is the step

Ron

[purelyprimitives]

Very interesting experiment.

Thanks!

How much torque do you expect at main shaft with your setup?

Yes, in my haste to put the video together I forgot the most important part... My goal is to first put together the smoothest rotation that also gets the maximum extension and retraction and then measure the torque.

How many watts does it consume?

The battery is sitting at 13.5 V right now and it draws between 8 and 9 amps so its running at about 120 watts. I'm hoping that once I smooth out the rotation that will go down a little.