Mikhail Dmitriyev - Input 1000 W, Output near 3000 W.

[purelyprimitives]

OK, so in effect the weight is extended for part of the cycle and retracted for the remainder? What O'clock then does this in/out take place.

Right now its 12:00 and 6:00 but I think advancing the timing might help. Picture the weight at 12:00 hanging straight down and then being rotated counterclockwise (very similar to Mikhails) and retracted (or basically 'held' in place) after 6:00.

Yes, nice builds, nice video's

Thanks but I'm still waiting to see yours

Edit: I guess where I was going with that is, when the weight is moving out less energy is used by the motor and when it is being retracted more energy is required because of centrifugal force.

Yes, you are correct. Extremely little power is required to rotate the weight after 12:00 because the weight want to move out anyway, and from my testing this phenomena is independant of the amount of the weight! So a very small motor can move a very large weight. This, I believe is where the overunity is created. The down side of course is that the motor will need to use more energy to hold (or try to rotate in) the weight after 6:00. But this could be addressed differently without using the motor.

Now with a two weight system the weighs are moving in opposite direction so if they were coupled together by chain drive (or toothed timing belt) the forces would be more in balance. With the motor mounted closer to the middle, motor load would also be better balanced... have I got it right?

Well, actually they would both move in the same counterclockwise direction. My next build will be a 2 weight/motor system but won't be tied together. I understand what you are saying but my thinking right now is that it would be better to have 2 independant systems without one burdening the other. But my thinking is always subject to change....

Regards,
Charlie

[purelyprimitives]

Hi Charlie, great work! I paid particular attention to your statement.

"This is a fairly incredible phenomena. Doubling the weight results in almost no incremental increase in current draw from the motor!! I believe that this validates his claim of overunity."

So this is the last in the series of this version?

Is it not possible to add any more weight, or do you think it will topple?

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the kind words! Yes, this is the last video of this build. I really don't think I need to add any more weight at this point. It clear to me now that it doesn't really matter how much weight I add. This might just be the key to prototype 12.

Best regards,
Charlie

[i_ron]

>
>Now with a two weight system the weighs are moving in opposite direction >so if they were coupled together by chain drive (or toothed timing belt) the >forces would be more in balance. With the motor mounted closer to the >middle, motor load would also be better balanced... have I got it right?



Well, actually they would both move in the same counterclockwise direction. My next build will be a 2 weight/motor system but won't be tied together. I understand what you are saying but my thinking right now is that it would be better to have 2 independant systems without one burdening the other. But my thinking is always subject to change....

Regards,
Charlie

By opposite directions I was meaning as one weight moves out the other is moving in, lol

Question, why are you reversing the motor? Could the weight not rotate 180 degrees and stop then on retraction rotate 180 and stop? Then the motor only has to turn one way...

Ron

PS; no progress here as time to repair the toilet, put up Xmas lights, finish off a CD for my daughter has used up all my time

[purelyprimitives]

By opposite directions I was meaning as one weight moves out the other is moving in, lol

Umm, yeah....I knew that....

Question, why are you reversing the motor? Could the weight not rotate 180 degrees and stop then on retraction rotate 180 and stop? Then the motor only has to turn one way...

Perhaps you are thinking of one of my previous comments where I was attempting an alternate method of rotating the weight by reversing the motor. Didn't work....

In these last 3 vid's the weight is moving in a continuous counterclockwise rotation by rotating-stopping...rotating-stopping. However, once the speed of rotation of the main arm catches up with the rotation of the weight, the motor is running almost continuously. The low point on the amp reading is when the weight is moving out and the high reading (~3.5A) is when the motor is trying to move the weight in. A lower geared motor would help here.

PS; no progress here as time to repair the toilet, put up Xmas lights, finish off a CD for my daughter has used up all my time

Are you a musician?

Charlie

[i_ron]

Umm, yeah....I knew that....



Perhaps you are thinking of one of my previous comments where I was attempting an alternate method of rotating the weight by reversing the motor. Didn't work....

In these last 3 vid's the weight is moving in a continuous counterclockwise rotation by rotating-stopping...rotating-stopping. However, once the speed of rotation of the main arm catches up with the rotation of the weight, the motor is running almost continuously. The low point on the amp reading is when the weight is moving out and the high reading (~3.5A) is when the motor is trying to move the weight in. A lower geared motor would help here.

Are you a musician?

Charlie

OK, I was thinking of the one with the three slip rings...

Amateur musician, heavy on the amateur, a bit of bass, guitar, drums.
But I have played with some real talent. (I have four songs up on my rohndoe youtube channel)
----------------------------------------------

I made a special effort to finish off the build this morning and so have some results. No kick wheel but tried a ramp at 7 o'clock...

Nothing impressive to report. All RPM's required input (finger power) With no ramp there is an RPM limit where the inertia of the weights allows the wheel to get ahead of them and the weights will flip right over.

This has been reported of course, so was not too surprised. So with the ramp in place the problem is the first minor contact with the bearing (on the end of the weight) will flip the weight up. Higher RPM and it goes right over also. Tried a channel for the bearing to run in but this greatly increases the friction and required more input. With no ramp it does rotate nicely if I stand there and push the weights out one by one at 2 o'clock, LOL

Ron

[soundiceuk]

So with the ramp in place the problem is the first minor contact with the bearing (on the end of the weight) will flip the weight up. Higher RPM and it goes right over also.

Hi Ron, glad to hear of your progress.

Please can you take a picture of the ramp and positions you used?

Tried a channel for the bearing to run in but this greatly increases the friction and required more input.

I am also interested to see the channel.

Did you fix bearings to the end of the weights? How did the bearing run in the channel?

Cheers,

Paul

[soundiceuk]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the kind words! Yes, this is the last video of this build. I really don't think I need to add any more weight at this point. It clear to me now that it doesn't really matter how much weight I add. This might just be the key to prototype 12.

Best regards,
Charlie

Hi Charlie, for some reason you have just jogged my memory to repost some of my past emails from Mikhail that you all may be interested in reading.

I have made any prototype 12 comments green.

I also wanted to say that Mikhail has been one of my inspirations followed by Woopy, Charlie, Ron and Greg to name a few.




"Hi Paul,

Thank you for your active in promoting my projects.

I like your suggestions.

I'm doing a new project and I have no time to participate in the forums and support sites.

So it is good if you do it with a minimum of my participation.

I give you the authority to this at the coordination with me of all the important actions.

Of course, if there are donations, contributions or income from sales of detailed drawings with description and application instructions, you should also be rewarded for your work.

Think about this question too.

Ok! I'll buy a lamps and I'll make a video with only lights in the load.

I assume that there will be very, very light.

Best regards,

Mikhail Dmitriev

________________________________________

"Hi Paul,

"Do what you can, and let it be what it would be". Something like that.

Then let's start.

Best regards,

Mikhail Dmitriev"

__________________________________________________ __

"Prototype number 11 is represented as one of the possible working systems with active flywheels.

This device not easy to make as well as understand the principle of work.

Next prototype will be easier, more effective and cheap.

Now I'm working on it.

There may be many different options making active flywheel.
System based on it are made on the same principle.

Motor drives the generator, and the active flywheel helps the engine,
reducing power consumption by several times."

________________________________________

"This garage leased and the lease term ends.
In any case it would be impossible to work and stay in it from November to May.

Freezing to -20 C and lower are cases in Moscow."

________________________________________

"In the prototype 12, I propose use the other mechanic and electrical schematics.

It will be a mobile device that is placed in the trunk of a car."

________________________________________

(ABOUT VIDEO WITHOUT DEFLECTING WHEEL)

"Was the case when the chain broke at full speed.
This chain in the transmission from the main shaft to the deflecting shaft.

Bike's wheel was not mounted on the shaft.
Incidentally, deviation of weights very well perform the power of inertia. Video attached.

Then the big wheel spins very long.

After 15 min. tired of waiting and tried to stop by hands.
It is very hard and can damage the hands. Let no one does that!

Transmission.
From a main shaft to the deflecting wheel shaft, there two stages with a total transfer of 8: 1.

Further to the motor and the generator, the transmission depends on their parameters (speed)."

[purelyprimitives]

"There may be many different options making active flywheel.
System based on it are made on the same principle."


I couldn't agree more!!

[i_ron]

Pictures

Hi Ron, glad to hear of your progress.

Please can you take a picture of the ramp and positions you used?



I am also interested to see the channel.

Did you fix bearings to the end of the weights? How did the bearing run in the channel?

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul,

Some pictures at...

Flickr: Ron HP's Photostream

The channel was just the other half of the ramp re-cut and positioned over the ramp in the photo.

You have my permission to re-post any picture you consider of interest,
I can build wheels but posting pictures to energetic has defeated me, that's why I prefer OU dot com for pictures --- it is easy, LOL

Ron

[soundiceuk]

Hi Paul,

Some pictures at...

Flickr: Ron HP's Photostream

The channel was just the other half of the ramp re-cut and positioned over the ramp in the photo.

You have my permission to re-post any picture you consider of interest,
I can build wheels but posting pictures to energetic has defeated me, that's why I prefer OU dot com for pictures --- it is easy, LOL

Ron

Hi Ron, great progress pics.

The FlickR gallery doesn't make it easy to display the photos in a forum like shown below. Although it is possible.

Photobucket is far simpler in my opinion.



After studying this photo here are my thoughts:

Your ramp and Replicator 1's ramp are in a similar area. There is very little off balance occuring with the ramp in this position based on your picture.

Have you experimented with the weights starting there travel earlier like in:

Magnet - Assisted Gravity Wheel - YouTube

A possible design improvement might be either some axially magnetized magnets fixed to the disc and also to the arms.

They would hold the weights somewhere between the 5 - 10 o'clock positions and the centrifugal force would overcome their strength at around 10 - 11 o'clock.

Another mechanical means may be more effective, but hopefully you will understand what I mean.





Can you clarify if the bearings are not rolling brilliantly and are actually sliding up the wood.

What size are the bearings ID (1/2"?) and OD? Possibly some polyurethane tube will slide straight onto them.


Can you measure the optimum RPM before your weights are being overthrown so that you have a base to measure against for any possible improvements?

It may be worth working out this figure and measuring the height of the weight being thrown out at its peak so a ramp can be added undeneath the bearing at approx 12 - 3 o'clock.

I believe that without the gain from 11 - 3 o'clock the lower ramp cannot provide much assistance.


Are the bearings a tight or interference fit and how long do they spin for if spun by hand?

Please can you carry out this experiment and report back?

Hang all weights at 90 degrees like in:

Gravity wheel without motors. Simple gravitational amplifier. - YouTube

Count how many rotations the wheel makes.

Best regards,

Paul

[soundiceuk]

I might be worth switching the weights over so that the bearings are on the other side.

The reason why is because then you could experiment with a small sheet of ali and hold it in your hands at around the 11' o' clock whilst the wheel is being spun and trial and error bending it to observe the reactions.

[soundiceuk]

I know this thead isn't about these technologies but it is good fuel for brainstorming.

Peruvian Torque Amplifier Device Wins in Geneva – Orbo.es

AOGFG Gravity Motor by Bobby - YouTube

If anyone knows of any kind of inventor / replicator that is playing around with mechanical devices, whether they incorporate pneumatics, hydraulics or electronics I would like to invite them to the thread.

I believe that the more expertise we have here, the better.

We all have something different to offer because we all see things from different angles because of our individual experiences.

[i_ron]

Hi Ron, great progress pics.

The FlickR gallery doesn't make it easy to display the photos in a forum like shown below. Although it is possible.

Photobucket is far simpler in my opinion.



After studying this photo here are my thoughts:

Your ramp and Replicator 1's ramp are in a similar area. There is very little off balance occuring with the ramp in this position based on your picture.

Have you experimented with the weights starting there travel earlier like in:

Magnet - Assisted Gravity Wheel - YouTube

A possible design improvement might be either some axially magnetized magnets fixed to the disc and also to the arms.

They would hold the weights somewhere between the 5 - 10 o'clock positions and the centrifugal force would overcome their strength at around 10 - 11 o'clock.

Another mechanical means may be more effective, but hopefully you will understand what I mean.





Can you clarify if the bearings are not rolling brilliantly and are actually sliding up the wood.

What size are the bearings ID (1/2"?) and OD? Possibly some polyurethane tube will slide straight onto them.


Can you measure the optimum RPM before your weights are being overthrown so that you have a base to measure against for any possible improvements?

It may be worth working out this figure and measuring the height of the weight being thrown out at its peak so a ramp can be added undeneath the bearing at approx 12 - 3 o'clock.

I believe that without the gain from 11 - 3 o'clock the lower ramp cannot provide much assistance.


Are the bearings a tight or interference fit and how long do they spin for if spun by hand?

Please can you carry out this experiment and report back?

Hang all weights at 90 degrees like in:

Gravity wheel without motors. Simple gravitational amplifier. - YouTube

Count how many rotations the wheel makes.

Best regards,

Paul

Thanks Paul,

The bearings spin freely. Keep in mind though that it is like an airliner landing, the bearing is not spinning either and at touch down there is a great expenditure of energy as the Tyres/ bearing spin up. this causes, in the case of the bearing, an immediate reaction. I now believe the magnetic approach would be more benign,

Yes, over the next few days, as time permits, I will try to address your other questions/suggestions

Ron

[soundiceuk]

Thanks Paul,

The bearings spin freely. Keep in mind though that it is like an airliner landing, the bearing is not spinning either and at touch down there is a great expenditure of energy as the Tyres/ bearing spin up. this causes, in the case of the bearing, an immediate reaction. I now believe the magnetic approach would be more benign,

Yes, over the next few days, as time permits, I will try to address your other questions/suggestions

Ron

Hi Ron, are they anywhere close to this much free spin?

Abec 11 Biltin bearing spin 4:30! - YouTube

Your aircraft runway analogy has made me more hopefull a track around the perfect path might work with the right weight, bearing and wheel combination.

I'm not 100% sure what the perfect path is yet though.


I have never heard the word 'benign' used in a sentance apart from a tumor.

Do you mean the magnetic approach would be gentler due to less friction?

I believe that if the weights are lifted / levitated after the 6 o'clock position, it will create more imbalance than a ramp ever could.

Look forward to your update Ron.

My parts are almost machined. Should have some pics soon.

The guide roller supplier has also dropped the price down to £5 a wheel because the manufacturer's sales rep has dropped by a sample. I'm going to order 4 to give that a try.

Cheers,

Paul

[i_ron]

adventurous

Hi Ron,


I have never heard the word 'benign' used in a sentance apart from a tumor.


Cheers,

Paul

LOL, I guess out here in the colonies we are more adventurous?

"benign [bɪˈnaɪn]
adj
1. showing kindliness; genial

2. (of soil, climate, etc.) mild; gentle

3. favourable; propitious

4. (Medicine / Pathology) Pathol (of a tumour, etc.)
not threatening to life or health; not malignant"

I was using the number three meaning

Ron