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  • #76
    Yes, of course

    The 60ft single wire in the back garden is nothing wireless. Any experiments which demonstrate a 'range' are always capacitance and induction. In fact, I mentioned that in recent videos...so don't worry, i'm not fooling myself lol. Most of all, we have definitely not got to fool anyone else !
    Companies seem to have a bunch of cash to push induction, with flashy boxes and the latest trend look to them...but I haven't seen anything that uses anything else.
    As a research center, in my opinion, the center can bring true longitudinal wireless forward, from the starting block of ever more efficient induction - using Tesla's original Patent's to demonstrate the progress in 21st century ways. There's little point in years of struggle for full replications of say Pat 1,119,732 without fruits being brought forward more immediately along that road.
    There is a definite worth in expansion of the sharp fast effects described in this one: Patent US454622 - NIKOLA TESLA - Google Patents

    Accepted wireless is indeed the induction arena and hopefully my latest forays demonstrate the simplicity, perhaps elegance with which such driver circuits can be readily built by anyone, from junky spare parts.
    What we don't have is adoption of these technologies and methods, what we don't have is a general public acceptance of what we here consider as commonplace.

    In my opinion, the most beneficial 'product' demonstrations to all would be well planned and presented, easy to follow and easily replicated or bought for low money. The thinking being why is this not already commonplace.
    Take for example a pancake coil system with 1 wire output. With more time to refine, such a system will readily light LED house bulbs and drastically cut down on the wiring required for a house.
    Of finer wire and much less copper needed, no electric shocks occur, no amperage overloads are possible and the safety overall is greatly heightened. That wire can be rained on, routed in places where traditional wiring stands out in an ugly way and emits no societally perceived harmful radiation beyond about an inch anyway. It's a commonsense approach.

    To write all the above another way - how far are we removed from the dream of fully longitudinal systems, compared to practical uses of induction wireless and single wire applications ?

    Comment


    • #77
      Hi Slider, Can you show me reference to where Tesla mentions or describes " longitudinal wireless" ? They must be common, and yet I can't say I've seen one.

      All the things I've read lead me to believe he was using regular ELF or VLF waves
      through the ground, meaning not radio waves but still electromagnetic waves.

      Please if someone could provide a reference to where Tesla describes the
      propagation via longitudinal waves.

      ELF transmitters already exist, and the transmissions can be received anywhere on Earth. They do not use "radio" waves, but they do use "electromagnetic waves".

      Cheers
      Last edited by Farmhand; 10-28-2012, 09:39 PM.

      Comment


      • #78
        He doubtfully used the exact phrase, but longitudinal observation and mathematics abound.

        From: Do neutrinos break the speed of light limit? Is Physics in Crisis? | Starburst Forums: Subquantum Kinetics
        "Tesla had measured superluminal speeds of c × π/2 (or 1.57 c) for the longitudinal waves he radiated around the world from his magnifying transmitter monopolar antenna towers"

        Longitudinal wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

        ExtraOrdinary Technology | Vol 1 No 4 | Tesla’s Wireless Energy... For the 21st Century!!!

        Eric Dollards presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64yKW9FSsBY


        And, from the guy himself within Patent 645,576 for example: Nicola Tesla (US Pat. 645576)
        With direction toward Page 3, Section 70
        Stationary waves is the term he uses.

        Comment


        • #79
          So are you saying "stationary waves" means "longitudinal waves" ?

          I'm really not interested what anyone else has to say. I want to see references
          by Tesla. In my opinion this is important.

          Standing Waves

          standing wave (physics) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

          Terrestrial stationary waves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          Standing wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

          Going by your reply it seems you are saying that Tesla did NOT use ELF or VLF waves.

          In my opinion all the evidence says he did use regular ELF or VLF waves.

          Cheers

          P.S. Just to be sure I'm not misunderstood.
          I'm not trying to say "longitudinal" waves do not exist.
          I just don't think I've read anywhere Tesla claiming his last patented
          transmitter used longitudinal waves to transmit the energy.
          And I think the transmitter did use regular ELF or VLF waves.
          And I think Tesla describes ELF or VLF waves as being the waves used.

          ..
          Last edited by Farmhand; 10-29-2012, 11:20 PM.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Nikola Tesla
            The assumption of the Maxwellian ether was thought necessary to explain the propagation of light by transverse vibrations, which can only occur in a solid. So fascinating was this theory that even at present it has many supporters, despite the manifest impossibility of a medium, perfectly mobile and tenuous to a degree inconceivable, and yet extremely rigid, like steel. As a result some illusionary ideas have been formed and various phenomena erroneously interpreted. The so—called Hertz waves are still considered a reality proving that light is electrical in its nature, and also that the ether is capable of transmitting transverse vibrations of frequencies however low. This view has become untenable since I showed that the universal medium is a gaseous body in which only longitudinal pulses can be propagated, involving alternating compressions and expansions similar to those produced by sound waves in the air. Thus, a wireless transmitter does not emit Hertz waves which are a myth, but sound waves in the ether, behaving in every respect like those in the air, except that, owing to the great elastic force and extremely small density of the medium, their speed is that of light.

            Suggested Short Waves Early.

            Since waves of this kind are all the more penetrating, the shorter they are, I have urged the experts engaged in the commercial application of the wireless art to employ very short waves, but for a long time my suggestions were not heeded. Eventually, though, this was done, and gradually the wavelengths were reduced to but a few meters. Invariably it was found that these waves, just as those in the air, follow the curvature of the earth and bend around obstacles, a peculiarity exhibited to a much lesser degree by transverse vibrations in a solid. Recently, how—ever, ultrashort waves have been experimented with and the fact that they also have the same property was hailed as a great discovery, offering the stupendous promise to make wireless transmission infinitely simpler and cheaper.—
            It is of interest to know what wireless experts have expected, knowing that waves a few meters long are transmitted clear to the antipodes. Is there any reason that they would behave radically different when their length is reduced to about half of one meter?

            Waves Go Around World.

            As the general knowledge of this subject seems very limited, I may state, that even waves only one or two millimeters long, which I produced thirty-three years ago, provided that they carry sufficient energy, can be transmitted around the globe.
            New York Herald Tribune, September 11, 1932

            "Pioneer Radio Engineer Gives Views On Power"
            Last edited by dR-Green; 10-30-2012, 12:11 AM.
            http://www.teslascientific.com/

            "Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

            "Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall

            Comment


            • #81
              The assumption of the Maxwellian ether was thought necessary to explain the propagation of light by transverse vibrations, which can only occur in a solid. So fascinating was this theory that even at present it has many supporters, despite the manifest impossibility of a medium, perfectly mobile and tenuous to a degree inconceivable, and yet extremely rigid, like steel. As a result some illusionary ideas have been formed and various phenomena erroneously interpreted. The so—called Hertz waves are still considered a reality proving that light is electrical in its nature, and also that the ether is capable of transmitting transverse vibrations of frequencies however low. This view has become untenable since I showed that the universal medium is a gaseous body in which only longitudinal pulses can be prop—agated, involving alternating compressions and expansions similar to those produced by sound waves in the air. Thus, a wireless transmitter does not emit Hertz waves which are a myth, but sound waves in the ether, behaving in every respect like those in the air, except that, owing to the great elastic force and extremely small densi—ty of the medium, their speed is that of light.
              I think what he is saying there is that "radio" waves are false and that electromagnetic waves do not propagate through the Aether or a gaseous
              medium as Hertz claimed.

              I don't think he is referring to the ground waves. The ground is considered a solid I think.

              Cheers

              P.S. I would have to say that the second paragraph goes directly against what he had said on many occasions previously. So how wrong was he earlier then ?

              ...

              My opinion is that he is laying claim to "short wave radio" as well which is fair enough. This is for signals only I believe.

              I think for significant energy transmission long waves are needed. I was
              referring to the transmission of significant energy not just signals.

              Yes short wave radio is possible over long distance I think.

              How is the mode of propagation of ELF waves explained ? They are not "radio" waves.

              ..
              Last edited by Farmhand; 10-30-2012, 12:52 AM.

              Comment


              • #82
                Thus, a wireless transmitter does not emit Hertz waves which are a myth, but sound waves in the ether
                It sounds like he's saying that Hertz waves are a myth, and in that case ALL radio transmitters emit longitudinal pulses, since Hertz waves don't exist.

                Well then, what's a Hertz wave? He's not referring to transverse waves with that term.

                I don't think he is referring to the ground waves. The ground is considered a solid I think.
                Invariably it was found that these waves, just as those in the air, follow the curvature of the earth and bend around obstacles, a peculiarity exhibited to a much lesser degree by transverse vibrations in a solid.
                I think a few different things are being talked about here now. You are talking about propagation through the earth, when Slider is talking about propagation through the air, I think?

                Anyway I would say that the earth consists of the aether or whatever "that" medium is as a cause, a "solid" earth is an effect.

                Ideally we need a Tesla dictionary of definitions from actual Tesla references so we're not talking about other people's interpretations.

                P.S. I would have to say that the second paragraph goes directly against what he had said on many occasions previously. So how wrong was he earlier then ?
                I have my doubts about some of these newspaper articles to be honest. They never seem to be as well written as Tesla's other writings...

                Some idiot working for the New York Times in my opinion is mostly responsible for a lot of the "free energy" myth, not paying attention to details and then publishing it anyway.
                Last edited by dR-Green; 10-30-2012, 12:57 AM.
                http://www.teslascientific.com/

                "Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

                "Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall

                Comment


                • #83
                  So are the standing waves Tesla describes that he creates "longitudinal" waves?

                  I'm talking about the way the energy was to be transmitted with the Long Island
                  transmitter for the transmission of usable energy/power.

                  Cheers

                  P.S. Yes different things get talked about. Tesla debunking Hertz I think is
                  talking about the waves "propagated through the air" for the purposes of
                  signals/ intelligence. I'm talking specifically about the way he describes the
                  transmission of usable power with the Long Island plant. He says it can be done
                  with transformation ratio alone. So whatever effect is produced it can be
                  produced by a regular transformer if used as Tesla describes. As he claimed in
                  the Colorado Springs Notes. Surely you must have read that.

                  ..

                  With all the contradictions I can only say that they must be
                  misunderstandings of what was said or written.

                  I tend to go with what is written in the patents that he refers to in some
                  detail which confirms his words in different context.

                  I'm not particularly bothered, if the standing waves are longitudinal then so be
                  it. But he did use/create standing waves did he not ?

                  ..
                  Last edited by Farmhand; 10-30-2012, 01:11 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Actually when I think about it, in a way current is longitudinal, it only flows "to" or "from"
                    depending on how we look at it. Current doesn't "zig zag" down a wire or through the Earth or Aether, it goes straight.

                    Regardless of the wavy lines we see on a scope which represent voltage over
                    time, when current flows it flows as straight as it can. Displacement current I
                    would think flows "dead straight" forward-back.

                    Cheers

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Tesla Museum

                      I just now read this thread and I think it is great that the Wardencliffe property will be developed into a public attraction. I imagine three themes that will pervade the attraction. History, Impact on Science and Engineering and, thirdly, The Mystique of Tesla. Some of us are mostly excited by one of these three themes more so than the other two. I wonder how much crazyness the owners of the Museum will tolerate. Don't be surprised if your offers of "help" are viewed with scepticism. I think a careful and thoughful approach like Chet is suggesting will have the most positive results.
                      There is a reason why science has been successful and technology is widespread. Don't be afraid to do the math and apply the laws of physics.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Farmhand View Post
                        So are the standing waves Tesla describes that he creates "longitudinal" waves?
                        I don't know, but I suppose you could imagine (or do quite easily) something similar with a sound echoing off the surroundings. If you time the output pulse to be equal with the return pulse (echo) then you've just created the situation. Calling it a "standing wave" situation is a description of the activity and doesn't describe the waves themselves that cause the activity.

                        I don't think it matters whether the medium is air or a solid beyond the velocity, the effect is the same in this case.

                        A longitudinal pulse (or trail of) is said to be "sound-like", high and low pressure zones in series. Note here there's no sine wave in terms of +/-, the air doesn't go "up and down", I don't know how to put it into words, but it doesn't swing into the "negative amplitude". Your eardrum responds to the "positive pressure" rather than +/- around zero as we consider sine waves in electrical systems for example.

                        At 35 seconds:

                        How the ear works - YouTube

                        So what kind of signal is coming out from the ground connection of a transmitter? I suppose it depends on the user. But from the sound analogy I think it's easy to see the principle.

                        In fact just for fun as I write this, in knocking my desk surface in a vertical direction, a (transverse) wave propagates horizontally in both directions from the impact point along the desk surface, the energy is escaping in the form of a loud sound, it feels "loose" on impact. It's efficient if I intend to make a lot of noise. I can also knock the desk on the edge of the surface from the horizontal direction. Now it feels "harder", there's less noise being produced, the wood seems to be absorbing the energy more efficiently, and most of the energy is propagating longitudinally to the opposite side of the desk surface, the side that's behind the monitors.

                        So depending on whether the intention is a lot of escaping noise or the efficient transfer of the energy to somewhere else, two different modes of propagation can be used. The longitudinal one in the analogy is the one that efficiently carries the energy through the medium without escaping as sound.
                        http://www.teslascientific.com/

                        "Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

                        "Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by dR-Green View Post

                          So what kind of signal is coming out from the ground connection of a transmitter? I suppose it depends on the user. But from the sound analogy I think it's easy to see the principle.
                          So how will you know when you have produced longitudinal waves ?

                          In my opinion Tesla talks repeatedly of standing waves as being induced in the Earth.

                          If there is a difference between normal standing waves and the ones which are considered longitudinal then what is it ?

                          Cheers

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Opportunity Knocks

                            Longitudinal waves ,standing waves ,we had everything here but Tidal waves [HHmmm maybe we had a few of those too??].

                            The way that we transfer power today [almost 100 years after Tesla built Wardenclyffe] is problematic for coastal areas that can be inundated by the sea .

                            And I get the feeling this "Sea thing " isn't going away anytime soon.
                            I spent most of my life working in NYC in highrise as well as highrisk infrastructure projects ,I cannot believe my eyes ,The omnipresent Sea and its romantic attachment to the NY skyline and surrounding areas is turning into something very very unnerving.

                            Another foot or so and Tesla would have had oceanfront property on Houston St...

                            Fellahs this Tesla Thing ....This 30 story tower in the sky over the farmlands of Shoreham long island

                            Wardenclyffe , What the Hell did it Do??

                            Somewhere between Tesla's folly and Tesla the man that would change the planet in ways not yet revealed.......

                            ?

                            This Sandy... She gives us the opportunity that only desperation can bring ........People will listen to things tomorrow that they would not have entertained last week.

                            The ball is in our court still fellahs! [a bit soggy here]

                            Overunity, underunity not that important ATM ,What do we know about moving power from here to there with out transmission lines??


                            That is the point to focus on.......
                            The intent of Wardenclyffe and PROVING IT !!

                            Thx
                            Chet

                            SIGH......
                            Sorry for the somewhat emotional zealous OverRant..
                            Its just quite frustrating at times,Knowing this man Tesla was an absolute genious,
                            knowing we have no example anywhere else of him being Eccentric and delusional
                            [building crazy things that would not work].
                            Quite the contrary !!

                            Just having the Truth would be nice......

                            The truth
                            Last edited by RAMSET; 10-31-2012, 03:29 AM.
                            If you want to Change the world
                            BE that change !!

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Farmhand View Post
                              So how will you know when you have produced longitudinal waves ?
                              Good question

                              Originally posted by Farmhand View Post
                              If there is a difference between normal standing waves and the ones which are considered longitudinal then what is it ?
                              Physics: Sound Waves - YouTube

                              Physics: Longitudinal Standing Waves - YouTube

                              There is no difference.
                              http://www.teslascientific.com/

                              "Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

                              "Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by RAMSET View Post
                                Longitudinal waves ,standing waves ,we had everything here but Tidal waves [HHmmm maybe we had a few of those too??]
                                A tidal wave is what we need!

                                Symbolism aside, these discussions are more productive than you may think
                                http://www.teslascientific.com/

                                "Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

                                "Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall

                                Comment

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