Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

[bistander]

N squared

UFO; Yes reducing the inductance is right as the formula is (time): Ts= L/Rs and you want a shorter time factor. But the unwind decreases also the Rs value a bit (square factor). Not good! Longer time again.. This means unfortunately that you have to reduce the wire zise also to keep the coil resistance at 12.x Ohm. The good thing: same 50V, X Amp. And the coil comes closer to the core!
Regards / Arne

Hi seaad,

I dissagree. Reduced wire size (gauge) is not required. Removing turns decreases inductance by N squared and reduces resistance by N. So time constant reduces by N^2/N = N.

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

No, a small DC bias will not affect reactance.

I agree. Although it appears contrary on the surface. Reduce # of turns. So at the same coil voltage, current increases due to lower resistance but mmf (Ampere Turns) stays the same at DC and low freq. Less turns decreases inductance (squared relationship) so will increase frequency where impedance cuts your current back significantly.

Downside is that your coil will run hotter.

Regards,

bi

ps. @seaad, thanks for the Z calcs.

Thanks Bistander,

I am still not finished with the main assembly then completing some more testing...taking off wire footage off each coil is not a problem...am using tape, not "for ever" epoxy resin...as this tape in also "reusable"...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Ufo; puede colocar todas las bobinas en serie, manteniendo alimentadas las bobinas de los extremos y utilizar dos escobillas interconectadas que abarquen solo cuatro bobinas, al girar mantendrá alimentadas las de uno y otro lado y solo tendrá que dar 900 revoluciones para llegar a los 60 hz, puenteando las delgas de manera correcta.
Pido perdón de nuevo por escribir en español.
Saludos

Ufo, you could set all coils in series, keeping the end ones energized, and use two brushes interconnected that include only four coils, so when it turns will keep energized both sides and only 900 RPM's to get 60 Hz, jumping the commutator elements the correct way.
Excuse me for writing in Spanish.

Regards

Hola Matu,

¿Pudieses hacer un diagrama simple de lo que estás hablando?

Me resulta interesante la parte final...pero, si conecto las bobinas en serie (cosa que probé antes) entonces el campo magnético del final resulta el más débil, por tener mayoría de resistencia...y eso NO es lo que busco.

Estas bobinas están en paralelo, de esta forma todas reciben la misma corriente y voltaje, pero principalmente los campos magnéticos originados tienen todos la misma fuerza y magnitud espacial, solamente que están espacialmente situados más cerca y más lejos del núcleo del inducido.

Gracias


Hello Matu,


Could you provide a simple graph about what you are saying?

The end part sounds interesting...but, if I connect all coils in series (thing that I already tried) then the end magnetic field would result to be weaker, since it has more resistance...and that's not what am looking for.

This Coils are in Parallel, in order to receive same current as voltage, but mainly all magnetic fields created would have exactly same strength and spatial magnitude, only that they are spatially positioned further away and closer to the Induced Core.

Thank You


Ufopolitics

[seaad]

UFO; Yes reducing the inductance is right as the formula is (time): Ts= L/Rs and you want a shorter time factor. But the unwind decreases also the Rs value a bit (square factor). Not good! Longer time again.. This means unfortunately that you have to reduce the wire zise also to keep the coil resistance at 12.x Ohm. The good thing: same 50V, X Amp. And the coil comes closer to the core!
Regards / Arne

[bistander]

Translation

Ufo; puede colocar todas las bobinas en serie, manteniendo alimentadas las bobinas de los extremos y utilizar dos escobillas interconectadas que abarquen solo cuatro bobinas, al girar mantendrá alimentadas las de uno y otro lado y solo tendrá que dar 900 revoluciones para llegar a los 60 hz, puenteando las delgas de manera correcta.
Pido perdón de nuevo por escribir en español.
Saludos

Forgive me for the google translation.

You can place all the coils in series, keeping the end coils fed and use two interconnected brushes that cover only four coils, turning will keep the ones on both sides and only have to give 900 revolutions to reach 60 hz, Bypassing the delgas correctly.
I apologize again for writing in Spanish.

[bistander]

Turns

Now, would the low DC Biasing to all coils reduce this reactance, since it becomes like a higher operating voltage and current above zero?

Or the only solution would be to reduce the wire length then turns ending up in less resistance?

Hi Ufo,

No, a small DC bias will not affect reactance.

I agree. Although it appears contrary on the surface. Reduce # of turns. So at the same coil voltage, current increases due to lower resistance but mmf (Ampere Turns) stays the same at DC and low freq. Less turns decreases inductance (squared relationship) so will increase frequency where impedance cuts your current back significantly.

Downside is that your coil will run hotter.

Regards,

bi

ps. @seaad, thanks for the Z calcs.

[Matu]

Ufo; puede colocar todas las bobinas en serie, manteniendo alimentadas las bobinas de los extremos y utilizar dos escobillas interconectadas que abarquen solo cuatro bobinas, al girar mantendrá alimentadas las de uno y otro lado y solo tendrá que dar 900 revoluciones para llegar a los 60 hz, puenteando las delgas de manera correcta.
Pido perdón de nuevo por escribir en español.
Saludos

[Ufopolitics]

Here is a better Frequency - Reactance Nomograph with formulas, see pic.

A coil say 50 mH (estimated Ufop coil) has a reactance X of about 8 Ohms at 25 Hz and about 16 Ohms at 50 Hz.

Impedance in series only Z = √(R^2 + X^2) (if both R and one type of X are present)

With an internal copper resistance of 12 Ohm at 25 Hz . Z =√( 144+64 ) Z=14.4 OhmZ
at 50 Hz . Z=√( 144+256 ) Z= 20 OhmZ

Regards / Arne

Thanks Seaad,

Then which would be the perfect starting resistance at each coil, based on the given input of 50v and 4 Amps?

In order that reactance won't be that high and deflection angle could grow as speed increases.

In a typical motor, and for separate reference it is better to analyze the comm signal based on an Asymmetrical type with independent coils...and it really don't matter if the commutator spins or the brush rotates...same thing...so, the higher the RPM's the shorter the time ON per Coil (this is a mechanical switching fact). And here I honestly can not see how we could increase that ON time as we speed motor?...it seems impossible from a commutator where all elements are same size.

On this set up where comm is static is very easy to scope signal off just one element, then see how it decreases the on time as whole frequency "shrinks" over time at higher speed.

And this "shrinking" reflected on CRT Sine Pattern takes place at both Max and Low Field sines, meaning Low rises up and Max comes down, so it takes place from both extremes...until it becomes almost a one "thick" line sine...killing induction. So at this point rising V and A do not matter...it just rises the whole thick sine...but do not spread it...spreading Sine at full speed is the key to full induction. and this fact applies in General for Primaries-Secondaries Interactions, regardless whatever method we use as the current fluctuations path or sequence path provided.

I am also planning on using a steady feed coil at each primary back end (not switchable) which will maintain the Low Sine steady no matter the speed as it keeps core polarized....and it may be even "self energized" or induced by the switching field so, eventually a closed diode on coil (looping it) should do the job as in a Brushless generator field and may add a small resistor to keep low field steady.

Then I only have to work on the Max Field increase, since low would be forced steadily.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

From what I gather you have a fairly high number of turns on those primary coils. So higher inductance than we're used to seeing. As you increase the switching RPM, the freqency goes up. This could be increasing reactance and limiting current.

Hello Bistander,

Yes indeed, the reactance (or impedance?) increases and only drops down like one (1) amp at source...

You might give some more info and ask seaad to run some numbers. What you describe sounds like increased impedance with increased frequency.

bi

It could be, but I am using exactly the resistance that Ohms equation dictates, based on Input of 50V and 4 Amps it would be 12.5 ohms (R=V/I= 50/4=12.5) which bolts down to 600 feet of 23 gauge. However, I understand as RPM increases reactance rises above those levels... plus, the higher operating temperature of coil above room temp will also contribute to rise ohms up to 13 point something, not much though.

Now, would the low DC Biasing to all coils reduce this reactance, since it becomes like a higher operating voltage and current above zero?

Or the only solution would be to reduce the wire length then turns ending up in less resistance?


Thanks in advance


Ufopolitics

[seaad]

Hi Ufo,
As you increase the switching RPM, the freqency goes up. This could be increasing reactance and limiting current.

You might give some more info and ask seaad to run some numbers. What you describe sounds like increased impedance with increased frequency.
bi

Here is a better Frequency - Reactance Nomograph with formulas, see pic.

A coil say 50 mH (estimated Ufop coil) has a reactance X of about 8 Ohms at 25 Hz and about 16 Ohms at 50 Hz.

Impedance in series only Z = √(R^2 + X^2) (if both R and one type of X are present)

With an internal copper resistance of 12 Ohm at 25 Hz . Z =√( 144+64 ) Z=14.4 OhmZ
at 50 Hz . Z=√( 144+256 ) Z= 20 OhmZ

Regards / Arne

[bistander]

New configuration

Hello and thanks Bistander,

Yeap, sounds like a good idea...finding the right low voltage plus resistance that keeps them On just the required Field Strength...

Well the point is to keep all iron core particles oriented by the weak field...but at the same token, this weak field would add up to comm moving and leading one, not much, but would become a single field and that is exactly what I am looking for.

Now on this set up, of all the rest I have tried...gave me the best Field deflection response and angle width...BUT, STILL...I am having Angle shrink at reaching operating speeds...and this is not good...induction decays instead of gaining...even though it is not much what am having up to now.

And it is simply due to the On Time being reduced by the higher speed of rotation...Time "shrinks" so field have much less time to develop...

Maybe when I do this low voltage biasing...it will get better, since this low current will keep all fields "alive"...so all they need is a "boost" to raise up.

I know, unfortunately you do not believe in Magnetic Spinning Fields...but just going by the SINE PATTERN I get on my B&W CRT Horizontal line deflection (which is a fact, so you can't deny this sine pattern existence with North as it is opposite for South ...)...as it also shows me so clearly all the stepping gain of the four coils on one primary...generating this angle am referring to from first to last...and it is easily verified by adding an incandescent light bulb to any of the Induced Coils...then I can establish a CRT SINE PATTERN relation to my observed INDUCED ENERGY STRENGTH...they are simple conclusions...as this angle shrinks...Bulb dims out...as angle spread Bulb brightens up...

Therefore I concluded that the best resulting machine...would be the one which the more I accelerate rotary switch...the greater that angle widens out on my small Black and White CRT "Magnetic Sine Pattern Scope"...


Regards and thanks again


Ufopolitics

Hi Ufo,

From what I gather you have a fairly high number of turns on those primary coils. So higher inductance than we're used to seeing. As you increase the switching RPM, the freqency goes up. This could be increasing reactance and limiting current.

You might give some more info and ask seaad to run some numbers. What you describe sounds like increased impedance with increased frequency.

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

To me it sounds like you want to bias all the 8 primary coils with a low DC. You may be able to do that with capacitors but I'd start by using the existing DC source and adding circuits. This way you can control the bias and keep it steady for experimentation. Later, once you get the level you need, look at replacing with caps.

I'd use a single pot or variable resistor off source positive. Then slpit the reduced voltage 8 ways, one lead to each primary coil thru a diode. Keep your main coil feed (from the comm) between the coil and diode so it doesn't backfeed.

Using the pot you should be able to bias all the coils equally at a percentage of the full switched current.

That would be my first attempt were I building the thing.

Good luck.

bi

ps. Of course I disagree with you about spinning fields, but we all are entitled to our own imaginations.

Hello and thanks Bistander,

Yeap, sounds like a good idea...finding the right low voltage plus resistance that keeps them On just the required Field Strength...

Well the point is to keep all iron core particles oriented by the weak field...but at the same token, this weak field would add up to comm moving and leading one, not much, but would become a single field and that is exactly what I am looking for.

Now on this set up, of all the rest I have tried...gave me the best Field deflection response and angle width...BUT, STILL...I am having Angle shrink at reaching operating speeds...and this is not good...induction decays instead of gaining...even though it is not much what am having up to now.

And it is simply due to the On Time being reduced by the higher speed of rotation...Time "shrinks" so field have much less time to develop...

Maybe when I do this low voltage biasing...it will get better, since this low current will keep all fields "alive"...so all they need is a "boost" to raise up.

I know, unfortunately you do not believe in Magnetic Spinning Fields...but just going by the SINE PATTERN I get on my B&W CRT Horizontal line deflection (which is a fact, so you can't deny this sine pattern existence with North as it is opposite for South ...)...as it also shows me so clearly all the stepping gain of the four coils on one primary...generating this angle am referring to from first to last...and it is easily verified by adding an incandescent light bulb to any of the Induced Coils...then I can establish a CRT SINE PATTERN relation to my observed INDUCED ENERGY STRENGTH...they are simple conclusions...as this angle shrinks...Bulb dims out...as angle spread Bulb brightens up...

Therefore I concluded that the best resulting machine...would be the one which the more I accelerate rotary switch...the greater that angle widens out on my small Black and White CRT "Magnetic Sine Pattern Scope"...


Regards and thanks again


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Fat E

... that fat E-core

PS. The E-core is my choice because I think it delivers a more sinus alike curve depending on that the brush lingers around the N and S points. Fewer turns per time periode. And you don't need a lathe. Only a flat sanding area.

Regards / Arne

Might work. Quite different magnetic circuit. I like it. Fat E's aren't too common are they?

bi

[bistander]

CW/CCW wound core

I can. I'm almost as self-confident as MM
With CW and CCW on a toroid or that fat E-core
Regards / Arne

OK seaad,

But I don't see anybody winding a core like that to give it a test. Too bad. I think you'd be surprised at the outcome.

Regards,

bi

[seaad]

Hi Ufo,
I don't see a "self commutated" part G as a viable reactive solution. Possibly resistive, but not using reactance as shown on the toroid core.
bi

I can. I'm almost as self-confident as MM
With CW and CCW on a toroid or that fat E-core

PS. The E-core is my choice because I think it delivers a more sinus alike curve depending on that the brush lingers around the N and S points. Fewer turns per time periode. And you don't need a lathe. Only a flat sanding area.

Regards / Arne