Konstatin Meyl's mistake in Theory and Practice

[Ernst]

Isn't the apparent over luminal velocity of resonant air core coils just the result
of the wave not actually having to travel the entire length of the wire but calculated
as if it does travel the entire distance of the wire giving the appearance of over
luminal velocity ? Layman's answer please.

Not sure, but I believe so.
Imagine the windings of a coil inducing current in nearby windings....

I have no reference nor any other reason to assume that the CS-transmitter resonated at 6 Hz. Just imagine the amount of copper wire required to achieve that...
But there is another possibility; the spark gap frequency. With this set at 6 Hz you could send bursts of 100 KHz at a 6 Hz rate.
There is cicumstancial evidence that during the experiment that blew up the CS generator, he used earth resonance. But not at 6 Hz, at 11.78 Hz.
Earth circumference = 40,000 Km, so diameter = 12,732 Km. The impuls would have to travel this distance twice, so 25,465 Km. At the speed of light that would take 84.88 ms (which matches the time stated in Tesla's work), thus we arrive at 11.78 Hz.

Ernst.

[dR-Green]

@ dR-Green,
On the differences I believe to have found between Tesla and Dollard. Let me first say that I am not ready for an in depth discussion on this subject as I do not yet fully understand both theories. But I am quite sure that when Tesla mentions 1/4 wavelength he is talking about the entire circuit length (ground to top-load). In Eric's explanaition of (3 coil) Tesla systems, he talks about 1/4 wavelength or 1/2 wavelength per coil.
This is the major difference that I believe I have found. There are some small other issues but those could also be misinterpretations on my side.

Tesla's Colorado Springs wire lengths are based on 1/4 in each coil, but then we get into the question of 1/4 of what? Because the frequency of the whole thing in the end is no longer the same 1/4 as the one he started with. Eric's theory was that there are "independent" 1/4 wave resonances going on in each coil, what Eric calls "concatenated resonance", but we have since found that this is not what's happening in the CS coil. So you are right in that respect. But apparently Tesla wasn't using the CS coil at 1/4 wave of any particular frequency that he had planned in advance, it just ended up being whatever it ended up as, so this "pot luck" is no good as far as engineering and understanding what's happening is concerned.

[Farmhand]

Yes that's my point, nothing seems to "actually" exceed the speed of light, it's
only "apparent", like a short cut.

I have a coil which is 200 turns of 0.5 mm wire, turns side by side the coil is 96 mm
diameter and 100 mm high, it has 59 meters of wire which going by the calculator here
should give a 1/4 wavelength resonant frequency of 1260 kHz, however when I actually
test the coil the resonant peak is at 1570 kHz which would equal about 47.8
meters. The coil has 2.1 mH and about 4.8 pF. Which gives the resonant frequency here.

This equates to 1.244 times faster than light ? I don't think so, I think the
energy wave or whatever just traveled 47.8 meters instead of the whole 59 meters.

Cheers

[Ernst]

@ Farmhand,

I believe you are right, and this is also where the PI/2 came from:
Look in my previous post here, the time for an electrical impuls to travel through the earth is 42.44 ms. This is a straight line through the centre of the earth.
If you would now calculate the speed over the earth surface you will arrive at a speed PI/2 times greater than c.
But is this "apparent" speed or actual speed? I can not answer that with absolute certainty.

Imagine the shadow of the earth, projected by our sun, passing over a planet at a distance of 1 light year from our sun. What would be the speed at which this shadow is moving?
Would you call that apparent or actual speed?

Ernst

[dR-Green]

Yes that's my point, nothing seems to "actually" exceed the speed of light, it's
only "apparent", like a short cut.

I have a coil which is 200 turns of 0.5 mm wire, turns side by side the coil is 96 mm
diameter and 100 mm high, it has 59 meters of wire which going by the calculator here
should give a 1/4 wavelength resonant frequency of 1260 kHz, however when I actually
test the coil the resonant peak is at 1570 kHz which would equal about 47.8
meters. The coil has 2.1 mH and about 4.8 pF. Which gives the resonant frequency here.

This equates to 1.244 times faster than light ? I don't think so, I think the
energy wave or whatever just traveled 47.8 meters instead of the whole 59 meters.

Cheers

But if you can take a short cut through space, which remains the same, the wire length is 59 metres and that didn't change, then how did you do that? You got from point A to B seemingly faster than the speed of light, short cut or not, you are there ahead of schedule. So how does the speed of light apply as a speed limit in the universe? The reality of "faster than light" is seen here through a certain arrangement of apparatus, so one could also say that the luminal universal speed limit is equally an illusion due to the lack of certain apparatus. The limitation of time and space as defined by physics was overcome quite easily. I mean, from a philosophical point of view, off topic from Meyl.

Anyway, you illustrated the flaw in Meyl's "experiment" through knowing the conductor length and the luminal frequency, which will be useful information for designing new coils. What Meyl has done is measure for resonance, call that "luminal", and then find another resonant peak and derive his "times the speed of light" from this. So it's all completely pointless. All he has confirmed is that one resonant peak of his coil is 1.5 times the frequency of the other, it's not relative to any speed of light.

I'm not sure that any of this ("faster than light" in this case) has any relation to wave propagation through the earth though, only the (extra) coil propagation and for design/construction purposes, because according to Tesla's diagram the velocity changes depending on the angle, reaching infinity at the poles. The "pole" being the coil and the 180 degree opposite, not the north pole and south pole as some people seem to think

[dR-Green]

[Ernst]

A shortcut to invalidate Prof. Dr.-Ir. Konstatin Meyl's theory:

His result:

– c2 ·∇ × ∇ × B = d2B/dt2 – v2·∇(∇·B)

(again every 2 means squared!)
We know that he believes dB/dt = v·∇B, so this should be equal to

– c2 ·∇ × ∇ × B = v2·∇2B – v2·∇(∇·B)

By definition:
∇ × ∇ × F = – ∇2F + ∇(∇·F)
so
– c2 ·∇ × ∇ × B = c2·∇2B – c2·∇(∇·B)

Which leads us to the conclusion that every speed (v) equals light speed (c).

This is certainly good news for police officers who can now write ridiculously high speeding tickets for every car they see.

Just don't get caught!

Ernst.

[GSM]

.... why I tried to rewrite Meyl's work in 4D. Unfortunately that can not be done.

.... longitudinal and transverse are occilations (AC), scalar is more like expanding DC.

Ernst.

Hi Ernst,

Yes scalar is beyond conventional maths, hence classically trained scientists cannot comprehend its existence, and thus to them anyone believing in same has 'lost it'; 'it' being their beliefs about reality.

'Expanding DC' - yes, but still with its amplitude cyclically pulse-modulated and thus embodying a rotational component; so still - somehow - requiring that extra mathematical dimension.

Cheers ......... Graham.

[exnihiloest]

Konstantin Meyl's mistakes are due to his confusion between radiations and "near fields", i.e between waves which propagate autonomously and fields which are linked to their source.

Near resonant circuits are coupled, and share their magnetic and electric fields in which energy is located and can be exchanged from the transmitter to the receiver. This is done in agreement with conventional electromagnetism, the density of energy per unit of volume being 1/2*ε0*E² + 1/2*B²/µ0, E and B being respectively the electric and magnetic field amplitude.

The same mistake appear in the "magnifier transmitter" from Tesla who was a great and respectable inventor but not a great theorist. He failed with his idea of longitudinal waves in vacuum while Maxwell was right against him with the EM waves.
The near fields are completely linked to their respective voltage and current sources, i.e. are permanently interacting with the charges without radiating. This allows for power transmission at a distance without having to invoke any autonomous waves.

.

[Web000x]

Isn't the apparent over luminal velocity of resonant air core coils just the result
of the wave not actually having to travel the entire length of the wire but calculated
as if it does travel the entire distance of the wire giving the appearance of over
luminal velocity ? Layman's answer please.

I was speaking with Eric about this particular topic yesterday, and he said that it isn't really a velocity. It is a ratio of space to time that the electricity exhibits within the bounding geometry of the coil. The reason that the resonant frequency compared to the quarter wavelength is so important is because physicists claim that it is the electrons traveling down the wire that is the cause of electricity. The apparent faster than light measurements are strictly to over turn the modern physics understanding of electricity.

Dave

[Farmhand]

Hi Dave, Yes I see, but when I use this OLTC online calculator the effect is predicted
so I don't understand how it is not known. This is for close wound coils but it
shows the effect is calculated and so is known.

OLTC calculator
OLTC Calculator

Frequency wavelength calculator
Frequency Wavelength Calculator

Fill the boxes next to the white writing from top to bottom. Then click in a box
next to some red writing to see the results. I get secondary Frez 1840 kHz,
but the online frequency wavelength converter tells me that 48 meters of wire
should have a resonant frequency of 1560 Khz. The velocity factor is
calculated. I don't see how that could happen if it is not known.

Secondary
90
0.5
90

Primary
10
5
2
100
2

Toroid
0.01

...............

I've also read a paper describing the effect.

Class Notes: Tesla Coils and the Failure of Lumped-Element Circuit Theory

Cheers

P.S. The electron movement in a wire is an effect of the current (flow of charges),
the current itself is an effect of voltage, some of us can see this is true by
using logic. That concept was not invented by Eric, or rather he was not the
first or the only one to know that. Displacement current shows us that.

Regardless I think Ernst wants to show/discuss Meyl's mistakes.

[Ernst]

In LIFO order, this time....

@ Farmhand,
Yes, this topic is about Meyls mistakes. But if that gives rise to related interesting discussions, please just continue. The only thing is that this discussion may be a little bit harder to find...

In response to Web000x,
If you do not accept 'action at a distance' it will become pretty hard to find a way around the concept of ether. For myself, induction proofs the existence of ether and so does the fact that a HF current radiates EM waves. But as far as faster-than-light travel in coils is concerned, if you 'accept' inductive and capacitive coupling between the windings it is obvious that the energy moves FTL when measured along the wire.

@ exnihiloest,
Are you saying that Longitudinal Electricity is a misunderstood near-field?
If that is true, then how are we receiving HF LE from the sun and the stars?

Ernst.

[GSM]

Konstantin Meyl's mistakes are due to his confusion between radiations and "near fields", i.e between waves which propagate autonomously and fields which are linked to their source.

.

Having watched Konstantin's demos I am inclined to agree with this statement.

I also think this near field aspect close to a resonant antenna/ conductor is also often wrongly deemed to be a longitudinal radiation component whilst actually the near resultant remains partially field coupled.

I was speaking with Eric about this particular topic yesterday, and he said that it isn't really a velocity. It is a ratio of space to time that the electricity exhibits within the bounding geometry of the coil. The reason that the resonant frequency compared to the quarter wavelength is so important is because physicists claim that it is the electrons traveling down the wire that is the cause of electricity. The apparent faster than light measurements are strictly to over turn the modern physics understanding of electricity.

Dave

Surely it is the charge which moves between electrons, and NOT the electrons themselves ?

In response to Web000x,
If you do not accept 'action at a distance' it will become pretty hard to find a way around the concept of ether. For myself, induction proofs the existence of ether and so does the fact that a HF current radiates EM waves. But as far as faster-than-light travel in coils is concerned, if you 'accept' inductive and capacitive coupling between the windings it is obvious that the energy moves FTL when measured along the wire.

Ernst.

Surely the whole point IS action at a distance - photonically - via discretely radiated energy quanta ?

How does induction prove the existence of an ether ?
Besides, if you believe in a three dimensional ether, how can Eric's uni-directional rope representation be acceptable and not interact with all else ?

Induction is the result of multiple electron spin alignments due to charge transfer between electrons = magnetic field !

If I might present my understanding -

EM radiation is purely photonic and NOT waves.
Waves require a medium through which to propagate and there is not a medium in outer space capable of propagting EM radiation.
(Also check Beardon)
There are no voltage/ magnetic fields along the propagation path of radio transmitted EM either, the equivalent field strength being that which the measuring equipment generates via its own transducing activity. The only wave like motion is that of the cylic photon generation at radiation, and then the cyclic energy transduced by the electrons/ atoms of photon energised matter where the wavelength may be imagined as per frequency of photon variation along the distance of path.

There is no transduction until the radiating photons energise electrons of matter, as do individual photons from a distant galaxy to eventually create an image via telescope CCDs. Just like putting your hand into an otherwise invisible torch beam.

EM radiation propagates via photons due to quanta stream released through induced electron excitation changes. (Tesla stated this photonic stream, reference not known)

Photons through a wire (predominatly the near surface skin region) = current = orbit alignments = induction = force upon conductor and core due to like charge motions attracting = magnetostriction = magnetic attraction.

Photons through free space = EM radiation.

Radio EM radiation is a cyclically varying photonic stream resulting from cyclical energisation changes of current aligned electron orbits.
Longitudinal radiation is where EM radiation is cyclically emitted via voltage change normal to the surface of a conductor, as via a flat surface or a tape conductor, prior to electron alignment due to charge flow normal to the direction of radiation.

What folk think of as the ether is no more than the free space through which so many fields and photons, neutrinos etc permeate. It has a representative impedance, though that is the cumulative action at a distance of all other matter and its fields/ charges/ radiations etc.

Hence if Meyl were genuinely demonstrating longitudinal radiation he would need centrally energised solid hemispheres with flats facing, as opposed to purely spherical antenna capacity 'hats'.

Cheers ............. Graham.

[Ernst]

This thread was intended to get rid of some 'disinformation' and if one reads it and understands it, I am pretty sure it will do so.
Yet it seems there is an aweful lot more work to be done in this field...

Action at a distance....
Matter can not act where it is not. I am probably 10.000 Km away from you, or more. This makes it impossible for me to push you off your chair, no matter how great my desire to do so. I could set my kitchen tap so that it drips at the earth's resonance frequency and, supposing that the energy in a falling drop of water can overcome all frictional losses involved in this process, after some time (years) this may have build up enough energy to do the trick.
But it is not I who then pushes you from your chair, it is the earth which conveys my carefully applied force. Or... I have been quite successfull in the manufacturing of acetone peroxide. If I could prepare some ridiculous amount of that, maybe I could create an airflow powerfull enough to do the trick. But again, it is not me who pushes you of your chair (a court may judge different, though) it is the air blast that conveys the force.
So how do 2 magnets then repell or attract each other? There we clearly see 'action at a distance'.
How do electric charges attract or repell? How does gravity attract?
How does an electric current induce an electric current in another wire?
These are all 'actions at a distance'.
So there are 2 things I can do:
- stay with my believe that 'matter can not act where it is not'
- change my believe into 'matter CAN act where it is not'.

I will do the first and I believe most scientists do the same. Yet for me it is easy because I am a believer of the ether, all the above phenomena can be explained by (inter-)actions of this media. For me it is: "Case closed."
Most modern scientists however refuse the concept of ether and try to solve the experienced phenomena in different ways which leads to:
- massless particles which do have momentum
- curved space
- fields, which is a word for a 'nothing' that is allowed to act upon 'somethings'
- superpositions (things that 'are' and 'are not' at the same time)
etc. etc...
Recent additions are:
Scalar waves... (???) A scalar is defined as a 'quantity' without direction as opposed to a vector which is defined as a 'quantity and a direction'. Motion always comes with a direction. So something represented by a scalar (instead of a vector) does not have motion. A wave implies motion, and so these word (scalar and wave) contradict.
Much like 'living dead', 'black light', 'silent noise', and indeed 'massless particle'.
....
(I wanted to add one more example, but I can't remember now. Could it have been 'trustworthy government'? 'a bank working in your interest?' 'democratic elections'? Outside the field of science there is so much to choose from, but I had another scientific example in mind)

Anyway, when it comes to fighting disinformation, there is still a lot of work to be done.

Ernst.

[GSM]

The action at a distance of which I write is via EM radiation from matter, and to matter.

Cheers .......... Graham.