The GEGENE : a Great Efficiency GENErator with a Tesla bifilar coil

[Armagdn03]

The pancake circuit, the secondary, will have some L, C, and R,
along with an output load. Presumably, the driving frequency will
be that of the cooker and the values of circuit elements will need
to be such as to resonate with it.

That is a good start on understanding the topic, however its not quite so straight forward. This receiving coil does not act only like a lumped element tank circuit, rather it has multiple resonance modes, some of which act like a parallel, some of which act like a series tank, much more similar to transmission line theory than lumped element. It would be smart to first define the operational modes of the receiving coil, then build ones to match the modes to the driving elements, each will probably give very different results.

[Michelinho]

Hi all,

Got the induction cooker this morning and will hand it to my partner when he comes to my place.

Meanwhile he will try to reproduce the same effect using direct coupling on a toroidal core. He has a >12" toroidal transformer from a medical apparatus and decided to strip it and rewind it using all bifilar coils. He was reluctant to strip it cause those sell for a lot of money on Ebay. After he did it, to his surprise, the core is made of a strip of steel strap spot welded to retain the shape in a plastic toroidal form... No ferrite or other exotic material in sight... How odd?

I will post his preliminary findings when he is done testing the direct coupling setup.

Take care all,

Michel

[velacreations]

Thanks for the info

JLNaudun is getting closer to closing the loop
Cheers

Yes, he is. Though, I think it might be easier to charge charge batteries through a bridge rectifier. As he has it right now, it needs to have COP>2 to self loop.

To do it with batteries, you have an inverter off the battery that feeds to GEGENE, then the GEGENE output is rectified to charge the battery. This would only require COP>1.3 to overcome losses, inefficiencies. I think the battery would provide enough load to keep the GEGENE going.

The problem right now is that he has to keep the halogens on to keep the system going, without them, there is no load. But a charging battery would be a load and provide the "pull" to keep it running. Maybe...

[wrtner]

To do it with batteries, you have an inverter off the battery that feeds to GEGENE, then the GEGENE output is rectified to charge the battery.

In most consumer equipment, the very first thing that happens to AC mains
is that it gets converted into what electronics want - low voltage DC.

I wonder if this happens with induction hobs.

If so, it might be easier to get the casing off and try and go upstream
of the AC stage and put DC voltage in where its wanted.

[Michelinho]

Hi wrtner,

Jean Louis Naudin did it with a retail unit for safety reason... His safety from whomever. Nobody can slap him on the hands because he is showing a COP>1 experimentation. It's a retail induction cooker and he uses of a bifilar coil from a very old patent freely available on the net.

He will show what can be extracted but not everything, that is what WE must research and show after a successful replication to the world.

Take care,

Michel

[gyula]

In most consumer equipment, the very first thing that happens to AC mains
is that it gets converted into what electronics want - low voltage DC.

I wonder if this happens with induction hobs.

If so, it might be easier to get the casing off and try and go upstream
of the AC stage and put DC voltage in where its wanted.

Hi wrtner,

With induction hobs, the AC mains voltage, albeit is indeed converted to a lower DC value but that supplies the low power electronics circuits inside the cookers, the main coil which does the actual induction heating is feed from the rectified mains voltage via IGBT or MOSFET switches. This means that if your goal is to simplify on the mains input circuits in the cooker and feed in directly a DC which is gained from the pancake coil(s), you would have to produce at least 160V DC (for cookers with 120V AC input) or at least 280V DC (for cookers with 230V AC input).

Regarding your earlier post (Reply #26, previous page) i.e. Presumably, the driving frequency will be that of the cooker and the values of circuit elements will need to be such as to resonate with it. I would like to make an addition to the excellent Reply #31 above from Armagdn03.
Here is a link that shows a (multi) resonant tank circuit Bootstrap coax traps for antennas and it is actually a certain length of coaxial cable wound as a normal solenoid to make a single layer (cylindrical) coil and the inner conductor of this coax cable is connected in series with the outer conductor (shield or braid) of the same coax cable, exactly like it is connected for Tesla's bifilar pancake coils: ( http://vk1od.net/antenna/coaxtrap/coaxtrap02.gif )
And the reason I mention this is that you can see how the impedance of this "coax coil" (connected as described) depends on the frequency, see this direct link: http://vk1od.net/antenna/coaxtrap/coaxtrap10.png where the peaks represent parallel (LC) resonances (i.e. high impedances) and the valleys represent series (LC) resonances (i.e. low impedances), so if you make a Tesla bifilar pancake coil you would surely experience similar impedance curves in the function of frequencies. For such cylindrical coaxial traps shown in the link there exists a computer program to calculate the needed resonant frequencies for the MHz ranges where radio amateurs mainly build antennas for the short wave bands. That computer program has a certain mechanical and electrical data base of known types of coax cables. If someone is interested in that software, it is free here www.qsl.net/ve6yp/coaxtrap.zip from this link http://www.qsl.net/ve6yp/CoaxTrap.html

Unfortunaly, for bifilar pancake coils I am not aware of such software program to compute the resonant frequency. To arrive at such resonant frequency and actually lower it from the MHz range I have given some hints in the "Tesla pancake coil" thread, Replies #11 and #12.

rgds, Gyula

[wrtner]

Thanks. Very useful stuff, Gyula.

Winding the pancake coil
-----------------------
On his site, Jean-Louis says that it is necessary to split the
speaker wire because it has to be wrapped in a tight curve
and the speaker cable is rectangular in cross section, about
2:1 ratio.

Can we wind the speaker cable on its side? It will be easier
to do but would create two coils very close side by side.
Does this matter?

[tachyoncatcher]

Been Done

Can we wind the speaker cable on its side? It will be easier
to do but would create two coils very close side by side.
Does this matter?

@wrtner,
Woopy has done what you are asking.
gegene reèlication 3 - YouTube
However, I didn't understand a word of it. Maybe if a few of ask, he would be willing to do an English version? His English is soooo much better than my French.
Bonne Chance,
Randy

[Dave45]

Yes, very interesting indeed.

So far only one side of the cooker plate coil is used. Would get 2X more output if another output coil is used on the backside of the cooker plate coil?

cheers

This definitely needs investigated.

[velacreations]

IMO, the results we have seen so far from the numerous replications are inconclusive. I don't trust the digital meter readings or the scope outputs. The tea kettle test by JLN is the best so far, and it didn't show a COP >1. While that test had some faults, it is by far the best test I've seen.

I'd like to see a light meter test that was properly calibrated beforehand. Most of JLN's output figures are based on the rated output of the lamps, not their actual value based on how much light they are outputting.

I'm still hoping for the best, but I remain skeptical, until I see better data.

[vrand]

This definitely needs investigated.

Exactly, more experiments are needed, so far Tesla's Pancake Coil invention is showing interesting results

I really appreciate energy researchers sharing their test results, as it is an expensive and time consuming activity that not everyone can pursue.

Cheers

[tika]

Just a thought about why Tesla bifilar coils are so efficient, and how to tune them.

Electrically, the coil can be seen as a parallel RLC circuit:

---------+--------+--------+
         |        |        |
         /        S      ____
     R   \   L    S      ____   C
         /        S        |
         |        |        |
---------+--------+--------+

Note that contrary to a series RLC circuit, this arrangement will show a peak in impedance at its resonance frequency. This is due to the dual relationship of electrical circuits, which causes the effects measured on voltages in series circuit to be measured in the currents of the corresponding parallel circuit.

In the series circuit, large voltages spikes can be measured across the coil and across the cap when the circuit is fed an AC voltage. Which means that
in the parallel circuit large currents spikes will exist in the LC loop. Large current in the coil will bring about a very strong magnetic field. This oscillatory current and its induced magnetic field will peak at the resonant frequency, where impedance is at its highest, and thus input power is at the lowest possible for the circuit. Free real power!

It is impossible to measure current inside a bifilar coil, as this is happening on the entire length of the spires. But there is no radiant energy or 4th dimension magical vortex here. Just down to earth great engineering, like all of Tesla's inventions.

Hope this will help understand better why we are seeing this excess power and how we can get even more out of it. I predict that will be at the resonant frequency for the coil.

Source:

RLC circuit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Michelinho]

Preliminary tests.

Hi all,

I have decided to wind a coil and see if I can come close to the results of woopy and Jean Louis Naudin. A friend helped me with the test procedure and all the formulas, many thanks for his patience with me.

The coil we tested is not bifilar and is made of 21 strands of magnet wire (size around AWG30 from a TV degaussing coil). It is 6 1/2" O.D. and 2" I.D. 26 turns spiraled, it comes out at 6.3 Ohms and 0.98 mH epoxied on a 1/8" base (hot glue melts).

The induction cooker is a Sonya 1300W on 110V (122V reported by the Kill-A-Watt) and the load is 600W of halogen bulbs (4) plus a 220V heating element (value corrected is 700W) for a total load of 1300W. The frequency is 58.8 KHz and 250V at 4.4A.

The induction cooker was set at 1100W (halogen bulbs at their brightest and lowest power to achieve it) and the Kill-A-Watt showed 1084W. With an apparent Power of 1100W, we calculated the power lost at 490W and real power at 984W.

So far, I did not see COP>1 but tests will continue. I ordered another induction cooker (1500W) and a replacement induction coil for reference on the tests my partner will conduct.

Take care all,

Michel

Test instruments used:

DM4070 RLC meter.
Simpson 270 analog multimeter.
Simpson 1701 analog ammeter.
Beckman Industrial Model 9020 20MHz 2 channels analog oscilloscope.

[wrtner]

.... is not bifilar and is made of 21 strands of magnet wire (size around AWG30 from a TV degaussing coil)

Jean-Louis' design is essentially bifilar.

AWG30 will carry 0.14 amp (according to Patrick's Appendix 1).
21 strands should carry rather more than 2.5amp, i.e. around
500 watt at a pinch based on 230volt assumption, possibly
not entirely valid.

If you get OU results, this coil may well go up in smoke.

I am working on wire from the high current side of a microwave
oven transformer, which is 1.15mm, AWG 17, with 2.9amp
capacity.

Paul-R

[Michelinho]

Hi Paul,

In my chart the MAX AMPS for AWG30 is .201 and 21 strands comes out as 4.221 A and that is consistent with the results I got but the wire can be AWG29 or 28, the size was approximate. I tried to make the coil the same size, it looks smaller than AWG 16, more like AWG 18 and the same amount of turns (20) or dimensions, as used in the induction plate coil (2" I.D. and 6" O.D.).

The first try was with 8 strands of AWG 23 or 24 (16 turns for an I.D. of 2 1/4" and 6" O.D.), it got hot fast and the hot glue I used to make the coil melted and the halogen bulbs during that test kept flashing on and off at 500W. Woopy in his first video uses what looks like AWG16 lamp cord and has 2000W of load and gets those light going on and off. The Kill-A-Watt needs time to settle to an apparent power usage but his 500W setting shows at one time 1000W on the lcd. I found the same problem with the K-A-W i am using, it needs time to settle.

My experimentation shows that the skin effect is happening in this case, so more and smaller wires result in better induction transfer. When changing the power level on the induction plate, the frequency and power output does not vary much, the off time just gets longer as you go down on the power setting. The on time was not long enough to get an exact input power reading, I trust my scope more than a $10.00 Kill-A-Watt.

The Tesla bifilar coil is done (2" I.D. and 6" O.D.) with 2 wires made of 3 Litz wires each and each made of 21 strands (around AWG 40 each) and the coil has 26 turns. Now its epoxy time.

I'll post the results when done.


Take care,

Michel