Here's looking at Euclid (Bogart)

[Zardox]

Hi Duncan
I love this thread and all that you have presented so far.
However the last post bothers me a bit. I worked for a large machine manufacturer designing and troubleshooting the electrical systems. I have seen many a motor failures.
On every occasion it could be broken down to a few different things. Most common was that the installer would supply to small of a supply line to handle the amps needed to avoid a voltage drop for the lengh of wire run needed. Second would be a bad connection somewhere within the system also causing high amperage and voltage drop. Or you could have a simple situation of overloading the motor again causing high amperage and voltage drop. Of coarse all of these situations create heat and something burnt out. A properly set up system will usually run for years.
This is my own observation, but maybe I still am not understanding the situation. Are you saying that we need to create a situation of high amperage and low voltage?
I stand ready for correction.

[boguslaw]

Duncan,

Simple question : do you know and can explain what is radiant energy ?

Zardox : can you easily explain why the subsequent run of motor not so long time after turning it off consume much less input power ? It looks like electric motor has a "cold" and "heated" state exactly like an engine.

[Duncan]

Hi Duncan
I love this thread and all that you have presented so far.
However the last post bothers me a bit. I worked for a large machine manufacturer designing and troubleshooting the electrical systems. I have seen many a motor failures.
On every occasion it could be broken down to a few different things. Most common was that the installer would supply to small of a supply line to handle the amps needed to avoid a voltage drop for the lengh of wire run needed. Second would be a bad connection somewhere within the system also causing high amperage and voltage drop. Or you could have a simple situation of overloading the motor again causing high amperage and voltage drop. Of coarse all of these situations create heat and something burnt out. A properly set up system will usually run for years.
This is my own observation, but maybe I still am not understanding the situation. Are you saying that we need to create a situation of high amperage and low voltage?
I stand ready for correction.

Hi Zardox .. wow bothered is the last I want you to be ! However as your obviously “Au fait” on motor drive systems I can simply point out that the destructive condition I am pointing to is phase distortion and high circulating currents as described in the triples link and amplified here
http://www.danfoss.com/NR/rdonlyres/...CPowerLine.pdf
Although of course I have pointed out that the effects are not measurable by normal methods. For the benefit of others reading the thread who do not have your acumen I have pointed out that each of the conditions you mentioned is not the cause because …
1/volt drop …. voltage is monitored
2/ loose connections … phases are interlocked and monitored any voltage variation from specification will cause shut down
3/Current is also monitored as I indicated .. voltage and current being monitored .. the product power is obviously being taken into account too
for those reading who are perhaps not quite so familiar with 3 phase machines .. regardless of all the above conditions being met with phase distortion huge circulating currents can exist within machines Its a well known and acknowledged condition as I'm sure Zardox knows now I've pointed directly at the situation I am trying to describe.
grids are much better regulated particulary in 1st world countries than the early days .. and just as Zardox says normaly a correctly installed motor will run for years however a grid with one feeder ... twenty odd miles long ... with no power factor correction ... feeding a heavy industy area .. which is exactly the conditions Tesla faced ... would have phenominal phase distortion ... and of course It all still happens today... but today its rather the exception than the rule. people throwing a breaker still get blown to bits if they are at the wrong place on the standing wave as you have seen ... but its not a regular event as it once was.

[Duncan]

Duncan,

Simple question : do you know and can explain what is radiant energy ?

Zardox : can you easily explain why the subsequent run of motor not so long time after turning it off consume much less input power ? It looks like electric motor has a "cold" and "heated" state exactly like an engine.

Hi Boguslaw ... luckily "Radient energy" is in the lexicon's and so there is no need for me to explain anything .. however here's a very simplified description which should explain it for you with out to much stress on the english
What is radiant energy
kind regards

[Duncan]

So... short it out!

In reality I'm glad your a tad “bothered” Zardox It has made me sit and think a little while … Oh dear a guy who has worked on motors …. doesn't get the picture … electricians of all the trades have possibly the worst conception of what electricity is than any of the trades …. Its totally simplistic and tends to be in one dimension.
As you can see from the links even phase distortion is demonstrated and drawn in one dimension
R.F engineers however have a very different picture … as I have pointed out their view must at least embrace two more dimensions … as I have pictured. Of course neither is right electricity isn’t a squiggle on paper …. to take this a small jump forward .. An RF guy and a transmission technicians view the concept of “mixing” differently too.
This is a typical picture an RF engineer would be shown in order to grasp the concept of modulation or mixing … of course Its nothing like real electricity but IMHO Its closer than the one dimension view electricians have.






The carrier wave being the transmission frequency … and of course the intelligence to be transmitted being the “modulated content” of the wave form. Obviously in the case of AM radio transmissions the shape of the waveform is essential to the integrity of the information contained in the “envelope” like the stinking grid, nuclear power, oil and all the other rot all radio these days is transmitted by transverse wave the far faster energy free linear wave has not been used for a hundred years or so.
The actual raw power transferred by such a wave form is obviously the sum of the active content under the waveform … R.F engineers call this “envelope power” HV grid engineers are conditioned with a counter screw view. Electricians are usually only given a brief introduction to this approach with Fleming .. and that thing where you stick your finger up ya nose … and that's soon abandoned under the weight of other twaddle. And the concept of a spinning elastic wave, counter wave and standing wave certainly doesn't enter the conditioning.
From my understanding of EPD the concept that area under the curve which is not modulated contains “nothing” is erroneous.... there is energy in the vacuum.
Just because different voltages and currents are used and the “dumplings” are taught differently .. There is absolute no difference in theory … Its all Electric … The difference between one persuasion and the other is in our minds …Its been carefully cultivated and planted there. The reason you cling desperately to voltage drop, loose connections and cable size is because you don’t wish to let go of the certainty of your own indoctrination . Having said that what you point out is correct “most of the time” the grid has been forced to behave … everything that doesn't has been shorted out … Just as Tom Bearden has told us.
The back emf (or the witch as UFOPolitics’s calls it) is very much a presence on the grid .. obviously … and its ambition is to modulate and radically change the shape and form of what you see as a Sine wave.
It is the exception we are seeking and its why I said some cross boarder raiding into the “wave guides” of other electrical trades is essential to get anything like the real picture.
Obviously any antenna is liable to an influx of energy Just as Tesla's grid which as EPD tells us was “dragged to its Knees” Tom Bearden has told us everything that miss behaves is “shorted out”
here's how its done on Telephone lines


And in order to short out and waste Aetheric energy on grid systems these are used

FAQs about Surge Arresters for High Voltage Substation Applications - YouTube
.
Now if Nikki had had some of those .. perhaps …. The big thing to keep in mind here is these so called protectors .. are actually shorting out the energy we are seeking to tune to and use.
It is this continual “controlled shorting” out of the grid to earth that renders it so much safer than it was a hundred or so years ago, along with the capacitors to manoeuvre the overtone content onto the line where it can be … wasted..... as you have seen though the complex wave and its impedance is a fickle beast … it can throw huge amounts of power at an opening or closing switch. Just like “parasitic elements” received on a radio antenna miles away from the source. And for the same reason … Its a linear wave. snap the towel just right ....
Tesla of course went on to locate and develop the source of the power .. not short it out and waste it at every possible instance. But he had a very different agenda to tptb.

[Duncan]

Relics !

Are you talking of the synchronous motor instead of capacitors for phase correction?

Iflewmyown … you are quite right in your logic …. lacking the material or methods to make high voltage capacitors the concept of a machine that could absorb and use the circulating currents was the solution … I suppose I'm going to have to be a little cautious with the word “use” for the moment because of course as soon as any real power is extracted from the watt-less component then the whole pack of cards comes tumbling down .. however by perfectly legitimate means well known to electrical engineering it is possible to “absorb” the reactive power in huge amounts.
This paste from the following link

The ability of synchronous condensers to “absorb” or produce reactive power on a transient basis stabilizes the power grid against short circuits and other transient fault conditions. (so this Zardox is why I was pointing to very high circulating currents)

For those with a RF or electronics background this then is effectively an "acceptor circuit"

Synchronous condenser : Ac Motors

Of course used on a power grid … in the modern day and age these things are huge and specially manufactured




however this is and example rather more from the era we are considering



as an apprentice I had to run some mandatory tests on some of these things, they were relics left in the roof of a government store house … which had originally been an WW1 training base and then Pulled out of moth balls and converted into an RAF base during WW2.. the hangers were being used as a sort of “giant junk room … the governments attic .. if you like … a mandatory “test fixed equipment” request required that these old bangers be run a report written .. despite the fact that they would never ever see service again.
There were eight of these things I ran two of them and massaged the figures for the rest ….
Impossible to get at them anyway without moving thousands of gas masks and Bren guns … these motors have serious flaws... synchronous motors do not self start , they have to be run up to synchronous speed with a pony motor . In the case of these things it was a flat plate with a pony motor bolted to it, with a piece of pipe which slid over a bar at the back of the main motor, there was a lever so you could put tension on a belt as the motor ran up to speed … you could feel and see when the thing locked in at synchronous speed you then gently eased off the tension on the belt … cut the power on the pony motor and removed the belt trying to keep you and your fingers out of the way.... and then of course you rushed eagerly (not) to the next banger. In the day this would have to be done every time the power shut off.
The load had to be constant …. in the case of these motors the load was ceiling ventilation fans.
If the belt and the pulley didn’t get you , the choppers might .. two was more than enough!
The field was fed with DC … how that was done originally I wouldn't know …batteries I would think, anyway these things used an effort that would look pretty good on a star trek set and took a bit of mucking about to get going … no 50 amp bridge rectifiers then .. this “state of the art” thing was called a mercury arc rectifier




As you can see there are all kinds of draw backs .. the thing is certainly not “user friendly” but for a circuit that has the potential to “absorb” and separate reactive current I can forgive it pretty much anything …. Its just one step away now …. how to convert the stuff . .

[iflewmyown]

Good afternoon,
This is a picture of a motor I converted to a wind turbine generator. It has the original 3 phase winding and a new rotor. The rotor was machined to a double octagon and 16 2" x 2" x 1/2" magnets epoxied on. The whole rotor was then wound with fiberglass filament and epoxy. The original was 15 hp and at the slow speed the turbine ran max output was about 1800 watts. I spun the rotor up to 800 rpm when it was new just to see if it would hold together before sticking it into the air. I don't know if it will withstand 1750 synchronous speed or not. It might be a receptor for reactive power ??
GarryS4021533.JPG

[Zardox]

OK , I am beginning to get a picture. At least in theory anyway.

[Duncan]

Good afternoon,
This is a picture of a motor I converted to a wind turbine generator. It has the original 3 phase winding and a new rotor. The rotor was machined to a double octagon and 16 2" x 2" x 1/2" magnets epoxied on. The whole rotor was then wound with fiberglass filament and epoxy. The original was 15 hp and at the slow speed the turbine ran max output was about 1800 watts. I spun the rotor up to 800 rpm when it was new just to see if it would hold together before sticking it into the air. I don't know if it will withstand 1750 synchronous speed or not. It might be a receptor for reactive power ??
Garry[ATTACH]13341[/ATTACH]

Nice job Garry ... seems a shame to destroy it before it ever gets to do the job you made it for ... or is that the welding upside down up a pole thing?
It which case ....

[boguslaw]

Here is part of my theory.....This modulated high frequency current, which you depicted Duncan, (if modulation is pure sinewave or other periodical but not sharply changing) is what I believe exactly so called "cold electricity". For all resistive loads it is like a slow frequency current but indeed it is HF having skin effect so it's more or less harmless. For any other loads it depends on load , because there appear a slower frequencies as an effect of intermodulation. Basically it can be converted to our 50/60Hz by using a filter.

[Duncan]

Hectors house

OK , I am beginning to get a picture. At least in theory anyway.

I guess thats the bite .. In theory it doesnt work .... the boffins say KVAr is a wattless component period .... they dont say ... Its a wattless component most of the time .. but watch the video of Dan combine as he tunes to reactive resonance It would be horribly remiss to leave Hector D Perez off any list of “spinners” and as you have the bits at the ready … I guess we might as well have a dig about his system …. It is probable that the reason you didn't get to a COP+1 condition is the Rotoverter concept was never actually designed to achieve such a thing … The group realised quite early on in the proceeding that looping attracted an awful lot of unwanted attention .
the object was to make off the shelf machines run very much more efficiently. In that ambition they were hugely successful. Under the umbrella of the panacea University very many projects have been undertaken including farms and irrigation systems that run on a fraction of there previous consumption.

Roto Verter

And really unless Its your ambition to get into lots of crap Its perhaps best left there … of course the obsession is to get COP +1 and like any other group the rotovertor group nibbled all around the terms and principles (I have painted here with a broad brush) …. Some of the guys produced COP +1machines Including a sit on lawn mower

“Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door”
Ralph Waldo Emerson

“Build a better lawnmower and some bastards you won't like much will beat a path to your door”
.. with a fire bomb. Duncan

As you will see in this link founder member of Panacea friend and member of this forum Ashweth is quoted.
Rotoverter Technology was OU before ORBO one.

and if you watch the video .. although not strictly “a spinner” as in a rotating machine the fields of the transformer are certainly spinning …
using a synchronous motor .. Tesla and t.p.t.b had a very different job to perform than we have in mind … he had variable loads to deal with .. and a moving standing wave … depending who turned what on where.
They wanted to absorb the reactive power across a broadband … we do not .. it is our ambition to tune to it specifically and use it.
From radio antenna theory we can see that the power transfer takes place at 90 deg which is also resonance.
So far from feeding the synchronous motor field with a DC current and a situation of lead or lag matching the waveform with an identical one and locking the two together in a resonant condition
results in COP + lots …. In the case of the lawn mower that started lots of aggro
a standard inverter was bought and then “adapted” so the frequency was adjustable about the resonant point of the synchronous condition
http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...-frequency.pdf

Here is one of the rotoverter group .. demonstrating the reactive current conversion.
Dan Combine 2011: "My video on Non-Linear Resonance" | MERLib.org … circulating current .
obviously not having a rotating machine he's forced to do the conversion .

[Duncan]

Gazooks ...

Here is part of my theory.....This modulated high frequency current, which you depicted Duncan, (if modulation is pure sinewave or other periodical but not sharply changing) is what I believe exactly so called "cold electricity". For all resistive loads it is like a slow frequency current but indeed it is HF having skin effect so it's more or less harmless. For any other loads it depends on load , because there appear a slower frequencies as an effect of intermodulation. Basically it can be converted to our 50/60Hz by using a filter.

Yeah that sounds close enough Boguslaw ... I'm just seeking a way of doing it so easily that anyone can do.
That’s why I'm trying to join the theories together along with the systems I’ve had success with ... I'm sure there's a very simple way to “be at it” even if it means a hybrid of a couple of systems.
For Instance Boguslaw the Hatem magnetic wheel works but its expensive. Very difficult to build and get just so , it has feed back problems and needs the most efficient alternator available as a prime mover … however if I post the thing …. Its quite possible some one else may see a path straight though all those aggravations .Its not really a case of building a COP +1 machine .. Its rather a case of conceiving of one that's so simple it gets out of the box and can't be forced back in. after all dont you think there has been enough murder threat and mayhem all around the subject ? Just take a look at the state of our world right now!

[boguslaw]

Well,Duncan if I'm right , for example about "cold electricity" then as you see there is nothing spectacular about it : radio frequency of even Mhz range currents can be produced and modulated and Tesla even mentioned no effect above 10khz afaik. Now compare that to all that mystery layered above simple HF modulated to low frequency current. Sure, I can be wrong , because there may be more then one effect included into the total "cold electricity" statement, like the "frozen wires effect" and so on.... The main trouble is the one statement was used by many inventors describing different devices.

Without clearing the mystery part we can talk a lot about magic stories....

[iflewmyown]

Duncan, this genny rode a pole for 6 years. It is expendable. The new one is a geared grid tied 10KW over driven induction motor.

[tachyoncatcher]

Don't Fret

Good afternoon,
This is a picture of a motor I converted to a wind turbine generator. It has the original 3 phase winding and a new rotor. The rotor was machined to a double octagon and 16 2" x 2" x 1/2" magnets epoxied on. The whole rotor was then wound with fiberglass filament and epoxy. The original was 15 hp and at the slow speed the turbine ran max output was about 1800 watts. I spun the rotor up to 800 rpm when it was new just to see if it would hold together before sticking it into the air. I don't know if it will withstand 1750 synchronous speed or not. It might be a receptor for reactive power ??
Garry[ATTACH]13341[/ATTACH]

Gary,
Epoxy is stronger than you know. I have a SSG with a 6" rotor. Two 7/8" thick pieces of particle board with a hard drive rotor sandwiched between them. Six 1x2x1/2 magnets epoxied on the outside of the boards. After about a year of running, I wrapped some nylon reinforced packing tape around the rotor. Has been running for over 2 years at around 2500 rpm. I would say your genny will hold up just fine.
Randy