Its the end of the world as we know it!

[boguslaw]

Because it's a ponzi scheme which we do not need, and never it was more visible.

[dutchdivco]

End of Civilization

NOT 'end of World', and thats what I THINK a complete economic collapse would mean. If, tommorow all your MONEY, in whatever form, became 'worthless', what would you do, and perhaps more important, what would we 'collectively' do?

One certainly COULD experience 'natural' disasters, as floods and hurricanes won't stop. But there may not be any Gov't. to come to the rescue.

But what happens, fir instance, if you can't 'access' your debit card, and even 'cash' is no good?

Suppose the power grid were to be seriously shut down, like from a massive solar flare. Couldn't get transportation fuel, or food, water and sewer in some cases are dependent on pumps, I-net is dead, etc. This it seems to me, would be the 'nitemare scenario'. Seems like such a scenario would qualify as a 'natural' disaster, although most of what would be effected would be 'man-made' systems. Kind of like Fuctupashima, where the 'natural' disaster of the sunami lead to the man-made disaster of the meltdowns.

Perhaps rather than a sudden complete economic collapse, where 'over nite' money becomes worthless, perhaps it will be a gradual spiral? I certainly can't see the future with a chrystl bll or anything, but sure seems like there are a lot of people who feel "It doesn't look good!" when thinking about the future!

Jim

[boguslaw]

Solar flares are predicted in 2014 ?

[Farmhand]

Bear in mind, this is, at its most basic, a DOG powered vehicle. I'll have to do some research, to see how much weight dog teams normally pull, on a typical loaded dog sled. Also, they make the sleds as light as possible, using woood and wicker/rattan, I believe. But your right, aluminum would also be lightweight.
I visualise myself tooling along down (mostly) empty streets, in a 'Mad-Max' kind of after the apocolypse world. Like a dog sled, could have tent and sleeping bags, a small camp stove, food, water, and ammo.Some tools, etc.
Will also have to look at dog 'shoes', to protect the dogs feet from the pavement.With good bearings, I bet a dog team could pull a fair amount of weight, on a nice surface like a street. After all, got to be easier to pull than a sled on runners,in the snow, and they do that, fine.
Might make the breaks, for the 2 back wheels foot operated; that way I can have at least one hand free, for using the whip. You crack it to the Left of the dogs, and yell "HAW" when you want them to turn right, and crack it to the Right of them, and yell "Hee" when you want them to turn Left. And, when you want them to stop you crack it in front of them, so they 'draw up short', and yell "HO". At least, I think thats how it works. You don't touch the dogs with the whip, its called a 'signal' whip for a reason; cause your signalling to the dogs what you want them to do, especially when training.And, they can all hear it and respond at the same time. A little breaking on 1 of the back wheels, and the dogs pulling the other way, out to steer just fine! Jim

I've got a similar idea but using two goats, I have a pair of twin Wether goats.
they weigh about 75 to 85 kg each and can run like the wind. They like human
contact and would team up well, i could make two buggies to use one on
each or I could team them to pull a chariot with the undercarriage so that the
wheels could be removed and it would slide. They could plough ground or haul
stuff.

Dogs eat meat, goats and horses eat vegetation so a meat eater pulling you
along is competing for your food, and in a place where all is ice and snow a
dog team would be needed as there is no vegetation. Dogs don't do well
eating grass and weeds goats do just fine.

As far as ammo goes it won't last long if you are on the move someone will
steal it it will be lost or you could be killed for it, one bullet to get 500 bullets
sounds like it could be worth the risk.

Basically if you are in a city and cannot fight or flee your way out you are
toast, a plaything for sick violent people or fertilizer.

If law and order fails no one will come anywhere near me unless I allow it or
they force it on me. Being no law force, means violence, although i am a
peaceful man I have the same abilities as any other, we all should remember
that. As well I am a devious planner, if I were someone else I would not go
onto my property either if the law dissipated. I am proficient in the
construction of all manner of traps, a man trap would be no problem.

A large mounted rail gun with re-usable sabot type projectile holders might be
useful as well.

Cheers

P.S. Basically those with wives and daughters need to think about how they would protect their females in a lawless land.
If the law collapsed over night and a group of twenty armed men were dismantling your walls in order to gain entry and take your women
what would you do ? Fighting them and getting killed won't help them. being inside a house makes one very vulnerable if the house is put under siege,
start shooting at people outside and you could get burned out or blown up.

A running firefight through the streets while dragging three or four young girls and a wife in tow seems like a tough going as well.

In my opinion when the law disappears many will die by each others hands. Though order will come from chaos eventually. It won't happen within cities containing millions of people.

We all know this is true. The writing is on the wall for all to read. Ignore it at you own and you families peril.

..

[dutchdivco]

Farmhand

Valid points; an herbivore as an animal to pull ISa great idea; its why horses are so good for transpotation; there are 'gas stations' all over. And goats is great; smaller mass, so less stopping to eat.
Actually, dogs aren't stricktly meat eaters; look at how little meat, and how much 'veggies' are in commercial dog food. And dogs have other advantages, such as early warning, etc. But, I DO like your idea of goats, if they could be trained to pull a cart.
Yes, getting out of the city IS a must, as they will initially be chaos, followed by a gradual development of 'warlords', and at the least everyone will pay 'protection'.
I guess thats part of my leaning towards 'hunter/gatherer'; I like the idea of being able to AVOID confrontation, OR conflagration.

Rather than put my $ and effort into building a 'Castle', I've got 2 travel trailers, older airstream-type. I'm configuring them so they hook together, in an "L" shape; solar panels for electric. I have a diesel stepvan for pulling one, and am soon going to be buing a flatbed, for pulling the other, with enough room to load our 'passenger car' (a 1965 corvair) on the flatbed. So, my whole house is a 'bug-out' vehicle. The stepvan has a water tank, for potable water, and a black water tank, with a macerator pump. The trailer with the toilet also has a macerator pump. That way I don't have to disconnect the trailers, just for dealing with dumping waste, or getting more potable water.
The step van is also set up in backlike a self-contained camper, so I've got that, as well.
Where to go; well, I figure smaller towns (particularly one a little off the beaten track) will 'circle the wagons', and form a defence against any gangs coming out from the cities for raids, and early on will welcome (I HOPE), refugees fleeing from the cities, particularly if they seem well armed, have useful skills,etc.
Have been reading the other thread, on how to turn wast6e plastic into diesel fuel, gasoline, and propane, so there's a source of fuel. There will be SOME cars around, running on such fuel, or converted to run on home-brewed 'moonshine', but there will be a LOT of abandoned cars, I suspect. Horses, bycycles, walking, etc, will probably be much more the norm. Anyway, the dog 'sled' (or goat sled) is ONE idea. Surprised no one has come up with one, only with wheels, already! Jim

[dutchdivco]

speaking of guns

Here's another idea I had. Some 'background', to start off with; I have a gun which takes either .45 long Colt or .410 ammunition. I bought a set of these 'inserts'; on the outside, they are shaped just like a .45 long colt shell. They have an off-center hole bored down the length, and are 'chambered' to take .22 long rifle ammo. Off center bore, because of coarse .22 ammo is rim-fire.
Anyway, I'm thinking take that idea up a notch. A set of such inserts; on the outside they are shaped just like a 12 guage shotgun shell; they have a CENTER bore, and are chambered, to take a variety of different ammo; since I'm thinking double barrel shotgun, I'm thinking 'pairs'; one set is bored and chambered for .25 cal., another for .32, etc. So, 'after' (SHTF) whatever ammo you found, stole, begged, borrowed, traded for or inherited, (cause you killed the former owner, and THEY aren't going to need them anymore), you could shoot it thru the shotgun, using the appropriate insert.
Thinking basic 'survival' weapon, not going to get into a 'firefight' with it.One of the inserts would be bored/chambered for .45/410, so would take the second insert for .22 cal., of coarse. Might also come in handy if someone had say,...a 12 guage shotgun, and a 9mm pistol. They would have the option of shooting their pistol ammo thru the shotgun? I don't know, is this a silly idea? Jim

[Duncan]

cheap .. no bullets rqd

http://www.tacticaltechzone.com/shop...red-dot-sight/

[Stealth]

All are good suggestions. I hope it doesn't come to that, but I am prepared if it does. I have made a PVC gun, as a last resort bugout defense or for hunting. All I need to carry is a small bicycle shock pump to recharge it after it runs low on air. You tube shows many of these but I designed mine myself. It will shoot multiple times before needing to be recharged. Made from schedule 40, 1/2 PVC, with a 600 PSI rating. If you want to see it, I can download a photo. It cost me about $30 to build and it will shoot nail darts, arrows, bullets, balls marbles or even rocks. Basically anything I can put into the barrel with a wadding, or leaf. I also made a few more for my pals and they are delighted with them. They will penetrate a 3/4 inch plywood board from 20-30 yards, depending on the air pressure in the chamber. The bicycle shock pump will produce up to 400 PSI. At 120 PSI it is a powerful 50 caliber rifle or shotgun. With 10 BB's wrapped up in a piece of paper, it makes a good shotgun. Good Luck. stealth

[Farmhand]

dutchdivco, I like you're insert idea, of course being a boilermaker with some machining
skills and a gun enthusiast, I once made a .22 pistol from steel stock,
it was a hinged design (like a shotgun) single shot and had no rifling of course.
It was all bolt together or riveted, it had a hammer to hit the firing pin which in
my mind was the most dangerous part if the firing pin came out backwards, but
I fixed that by machining a part of the pin away and adding a retainer so that it
could only move back and forth a small distance, the rest of the gun was way over
strength, impossible to explode, some hand crafting here and there and it worked a treat,
always fired and could be reloaded pretty quick. I used to remove the lead from the rounds
and replace them with hard wax for fun pop shots, I even shot a half a fishing rod rammed
into the barrel with a de leaded bullet, it shot the rod like a spear and shattered it on impact
with the neighbors house stump. Anything that will take a .22 round and fire it is useful, .22 cartridges
are common light and fairly safe for the user, they can be used to hunt. A good .22 rifle will kill a man
with one shot easy. Just depends on how good of a shot you are. And how long you can wait for the
person to expire. No good for distance shooting though, 6.5 Mauser is better.

But my faveorite rifle is the Lee Enfield .303.

The Lee Enfield Rifle - Still the best bolt action battle rifle ever conceived - YouTube

Lee Enfield SMLE and Mauser K98k compared - YouTube

Cheers

P.S. I really like the air pump gun idea as well anyone can make that.

Nice crossbow Duncan, a crossbow bolt can be expensive and they can rarely be got back, but they can be made easy enough.

The usefulness of the catapult is is underrated as well, with today's materials
a small catapult that can be carried and pegged to the ground
can be made powerful enough to lob fairly hefty lumps of stuff, even on fire.
They can also deliver biological payloads. Almost silent as well.


..

[dutchdivco]

I also

LIKE the idea of an air-pressure 'gun'. Lewis and Clark, on their expedition, carried 1 or 2 air-powered rifles. They hand piumped them up to 3500 psi, and they would shoot multiple shots once pumped up. At every indian camp they encountered, they would arrange a demonstration. Silently bring down a deer at several 100 yds, made a big impression, and was a not so subtle way of saying "Don't F*CK with us!
I believe there were also 'sniper' rifles made, during WW2, that were air powered. And, I believe as long s only air is used as the propellent, and the 'bullet' isn't explosive, they are exempt from any regulation.Potato cannons, for instance; as long as the 'potato' doesn't explode, 'no worries'.
Coarse, once their IS no law, you could make whatever ammo you want.
Another idea on survival; carry a small # of M-80's; a lot of survival kits have fishing line, and hooks, and thats a good idea. But, If I'm lost, and wandering for days, and STARVING. I stumble across a body of water with fish in it, and I'm so weak I'm almost crawling. I'm not going to get out my fishoing lins and hook,and dig for some worms! I'm going to lite an M-80, and toss it in the water; the fish will float up, and I can take my pick and get to cleaning and cooking! Coarse, its 'against' fish and wildlife 'rules', but if I'm starving, f*ck that!
And, there are certainly other uses for M-80's, and they don't weigh much or take up much space.The idea of a 'wrist-rocket' slingshot, and a cigar comes to mind.
I'm also fond of flare guns, and have several; lot of uses. At close range, its a devastating anti-personell weapon, and will even deal with an attacking bear.
Speaking of which, they also have 'bear-banger' flares, specifically for distracting bears.
And, I also like these 'Zombie blaster' rounds; made for 410, 12 and 20 guage, they are like a 'flash-bang'; they put out a bright flash and deafening explosion; a gang of zombies are approaching you and yours with bad intent; close your eyes and fire off a round; now all the zombies are deaf and blind, for about 5 minutes, giving you and yours time to get away.
The gun I have is a Leinad doble barreled 'derringer', with the 'kit' to make an 18" barrel shotgun with folding stock. With the insert, it will shoot .22 long rifle, and otherwise it will shoot .45 long colt, or any .410 ammo from bird shot to slugs. .22 is nice and cheap, plenty good for varmints, and as you say, it CAN be fatal, at close range.
Would like to add a 12 guage, IF I could have a set of inserts like I described.
Would be expensive to mke one set, not as much to make MANY sets; just wondering if the idea would be 'marketable'; would ENOUGH people want to buya set, to make it worthwhile? All I want is a set for myself!

On 'stockpiling', some thoughts; Coffee, Tobacco and chocolate; the coffee and tobacco in vaccuum packed steel cans, and the plain chocolate hershey bars. In times of shortage, people place a 'premium' on things which can remind them of 'how it was, before'; we've all heard what GI's were abel to get in trade, for chocolate bars and nylons, during WW2. Also, if supply lines are disrupted, chocolate, coffee and tobacco are things which are hard to produce, yourself. Get 'Top' or a similar cigarette tobacco, in the sealed tins. Run accross a smoker who's 'jonesing', no telling wwhat he will trade you, for 1/4 oz.!Jim

[Mad Scientist]

Not bad but still way too complex, need something like this, much simpler.
Now we just need to come up with a holster for concealed carry.

A Lethal Sniper Rifle – LewRockwell.com

[Farmhand]

Oh Duncan I see, The tactical crossbow you linked can fire lots of things as projectiles. Very cool.

That principal could be applied to an air pressure "projector" I'll use the word
projector for anything that projects an object or "projectile" that doesn't have
a rifled barrel, won't need to use the words with stigma then.

As far as legalities go, in Australia a crossbow is considered a firearm and a
shooters licence is required. Likewise with an air rifle of any kind even a BB gun.

So any air pressure projector would also be illegal by definition.

A regular bow and arrow is not considered a firearm though because it can't
be left cocked and ready to fire without being held. Anything that launches a
projectile and can be cocked and set down ready to fire is considered a
firearm I think. So a catapult would also be a firearm. A slingshot is not a
firearm, and legal, I have one. But I could easily make a better one and I have
an air compressor so I can charge a cylinder, being a boilermaker I am
qualified to legally construct pressure vessels, but if it was connected to a
projector then it would be illegal.

An electromagnetic rail projector could be made so that it is disarmed if not
held and may well circumvent the firearm laws, if constructed properly. I'll
need to look up the laws. Even though if all goes to crap the present "laws" or
"acts of parliament" for a more accurate term will be null and void anyway all
except for common law that is. The only real LAW is common law. Anyway
the things need to be constructed now not after, so the current laws should
be respected. I guess.

I really need a milling machine to make machined parts, anyone want to donate one ?

..

[dutchdivco]

Thinking

A catapult, as an example, could be made so that you have to hold the weight back, until you fire; so, its just like a bow and arrow. After SHTF, you can 'add' a device to hold it in the 'cocked' position. Same idea COULD be done on a variety of these devices, so you can construct and test them now, and have them available for minor modification, when the laws 'change', or go obsolete or whetever.
Just as 'locks only keep honest people out', laws ALWAYS have 'loopholes', if one is clever enough and persistent enough to look.
Good to hear what the law is like 'down under'; during the last gun control debate, they talked about how Australia had (basically) severly restricted gun ownership, and therefore stopped 'nutjob' shootings. But, your post makes it clear the 'price' paid for such 'security'; a HIGH price! So, I guess paintball guns are restricted, 'down under', eh? What joke it is, using laws to try to restrict peoples behavior! One of the many futile ironies of 'civilization'.
Jim

[Xenophanes]

dutchdivco, I like you're insert idea, of course being a boilermaker with some machining
skills and a gun enthusiast, I once made a .22 pistol from steel stock,
it was a hinged design (like a shotgun) single shot and had no rifling of course.
It was all bolt together or riveted, it had a hammer to hit the firing pin which in
my mind was the most dangerous part if the firing pin came out backwards, but
I fixed that by machining a part of the pin away and adding a retainer so that it
could only move back and forth a small distance, the rest of the gun was way over
strength, impossible to explode, some hand crafting here and there and it worked a treat,
always fired and could be reloaded pretty quick. I used to remove the lead from the rounds
and replace them with hard wax for fun pop shots, I even shot a half a fishing rod rammed
into the barrel with a de leaded bullet, it shot the rod like a spear and shattered it on impact
with the neighbors house stump. Anything that will take a .22 round and fire it is useful, .22 cartridges
are common light and fairly safe for the user, they can be used to hunt. A good .22 rifle will kill a man
with one shot easy. Just depends on how good of a shot you are. And how long you can wait for the
person to expire. No good for distance shooting though, 6.5 Mauser is better.

But my faveorite rifle is the Lee Enfield .303.

The Lee Enfield Rifle - Still the best bolt action battle rifle ever conceived - YouTube

Lee Enfield SMLE and Mauser K98k compared - YouTube

Cheers

P.S. I really like the air pump gun idea as well anyone can make that.

Nice crossbow Duncan, a crossbow bolt can be expensive and they can rarely be got back, but they can be made easy enough.

The usefulness of the catapult is is underrated as well, with today's materials
a small catapult that can be carried and pegged to the ground
can be made powerful enough to lob fairly hefty lumps of stuff, even on fire.
They can also deliver biological payloads. Almost silent as well.


..

I Love my Enfield(s) too.

I think you`ll get a kick out of this one FarmHand.

4 Winds Shotgun My buddy built one but neither of us has found the courage to fire it yet.

[Farmhand]

Oh yes the laws are draconian here, we can't even buy ammo without a
shooters licence. When they had the gun buyback I had two rifles a shotgun
and my home made pistol which was illegal anyway. Rather than take my rifles
and gun to the gubbment to destroy and get money from the other tax payers
I did it myself, was sad. Not sad for the guns sad for the loss of rights and security.

Generally speaking people are more prone to random violence when no one
has a weapon to dissuade them, home invasions are very common.

Many people took non working old rifles and stuff in and got good money
(paid for by us) and just kept the good ones.

Total idiocy, all stemmed from Port Arthur Psyops attack, was planned and it
worked . over 30 people lost their live that day in horrific ways, the shooter was
a well trained cold heated assassin, left one in the breech while changing clips in
the cafe in case anyone tried to rush him.

If anyone is accused of any domestic violence they come take all your
registered firearms. Just an allegation is enough. Even the people with firearms
and licences could lose them in a heartbeat.

I won't apply for a licence because that would be giving them the authority
over me they want.

If I had a milling machine and a lathe I could make reliable semi auto pistol
guns and long guns but the barrel rifling is a more difficult thing to achieve.
In that way a powerful crossbow would shine.

I would love to make a working colt M1911. A submachine gun is one of the
most simple designs out there, like the Owen, Austin (Australian) or Sten (GB).
They are very simplistic and hardy weapons with extreme reliability.

They can be thrown into muddy water stomped on, jumped up an down on then picked up and fired, no problems.

Qwen and Austin gun.

Rare Weapons of Australia - YouTube

Owen gun.

The Australian Owen SMG - YouTube

Ammo is the big problem here, I would need to get a registered shooter to buy
a bucket of ammo for me .22 will do for me. TO get a licence you need a
reason, like be in a gun club or have a property large enough to be able to
use it there safely for vermin or stock dispachment, not easy to kill an old
cow with a sledge hammer, better to put them in a crush and bleed them.
Even if in a gun club to own firearms they must be left at the range or locked
up in safes in special ways.

It just totally sucks ass. I had hundreds of fist fights when i owned fireams and
not once did I ever consider using one on another person.

Cheers