Reactive Generator Research for everyone to share

[ewizard]

Good info AC although a quick read through that forum you referenced seems to show the Kill A Watt meter as reading higher watts than the Fluke meter in most cases, even on a refrigerator (motor). It did come in lower on a PC power supply by about 3% or so which is no surprise.

[shylo]

Post #30

Hi All,
AC in fig.#2 , If it was fed with a dc supply through the motor , would the on-off action of the commutator act as a wave?
You can hook-up coils through the supply but, the added resistance consumes more power.
So if you hook-up one coil, which acts like a transformer, and you surround that with collector coils, is this feasible?..or even possible?
It's Friday night, artv

[Farmhand]

@Farmhand



"What is the truth when the truth is unacceptable" -- T.H.Moray

I would agree real power is considered to be power dissipated in a load as well reactive power is considered to be power not dissipated in the load but stored in a circuit element, L, C or other. At which point we have a problem because to my knowledge there is no actual term to describe power which is not dissipated in a circuit element but transforms energy in another circuit element manifesting as real power.
So one has to wonder, how do we describe something using a term which does not exist without contradicting other terms?.

It cannot be real power because it does not dissipate, it cannot be reactive power because it is involved in a process manifesting as real power, so what is it?. If your going to debate what it is not then the least you can do is tell us what you think it is.

AC

I think it is measurement error plain and simple, and Luc and others try until
they get the setup that produces a measurement error that they want to
see.

As I have said, I myself have fiddled with a circuit to get it to apparently
show no input with a 90 degree phase shift in voltage and current while
powering a load. It's just an illusion. There is power input that is not being
measured correctly in my opinion. With lower powers and the grid it is easy to
show, but with hundreds of watts and a battery/inverter as the supply the
effect might disappear in a puff of electrical smoke.

Why not up the ante and lower the load resistance, power a real load so we
can see a trick resistor is not used, and produce a lit 25 to 100 Watt bulb with no
power drawn from the supply, if the AC is provided by an inverter not the grid
and the DC power measured out of the battery is zero then I will think there is
something to it.

If it is real and works then use an inverter powered from a battery to produce
the AC electricity for the input, measure the voltage and current out of the
battery and show a 100 watt light bulb lit while no energy is being supplied by
the battery. Do whatever in between except have no connection to the grid
or any other source of energy except the battery.

Making claims of over unity and powering loads with reactive power is a big
claim. He has a obligation to try to show what he is claiming is true.

I think it is just more promotion for Thanes stuff, but that's just my opinion.

It's typical he makes the claim then says he doe not want to hear from
anybody who has not done the experiment and got similar results, never mind
those who do the experiments and get different results.

Here's my view. Make your own AC supply powered by your own source of
energy (NOT THE GRID) then do the experiment with a load resistance of less
Ohms like a 100 watt globe. Note the power dissipated by the load and the
power input from the battery. Show the effect of no input and some tens of
watts load power, without the grid, by making your own AC supply.

See what happens.

If it is a real effect it should be seen when the supply is a battery and an
inverter. No need for the input energy meter then.

People make strange and odd claims, so I ask for better proof.

I cannot tell you what I think something is that I think does not exist.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

Basically, inverters and batteries are not expensive, simply unplug the supply to
the arrangement from the grid and plug it into an inverter powered by a battery
and see what happens. Doesn't get much simpler. Then show us that the load
can be powered from the inverter supply without drawing any energy from the
battery.

When using the grid, the energy required to produce the AC is not considered,
almost like it's considered by some to just be there with no cost involved.

Anyone who wants to know if it is actually possible will try it.

Truth is the inverter will draw at least idle power, the idle power drawn by the
inverter is a valid loss to begin with and needs to be made up for
before anything is free. Also inverters don't deal with reactive power back to
the battery very well, so work done by the supply dealing with reactive power
will not happen with someone else paying for it if an inverter is used,
the operator must pay all cots for losses.

At the grid power plant there is losses involved in producing the AC power,
these losses are paid for, if the losses at the power plant increase then the
cost of the power will also increase. Seems like a kind of self defeating
exercise in the long run. Your dealing with the grid that is owned by someone
else, take the grid supply out of the situation and things might look different.

Try it AC and then video tape it and show us. Then we can all have real free
energy. Without needing the grid. Make sense ?

Cheers

[Allcanadian]

@Farmhand

Here's my view. Make your own AC supply powered by your own source of
energy (NOT THE GRID) then do the experiment with a load resistance of less
Ohms like a 100 watt globe. Note the power dissipated by the load and the
power input from the battery. Show the effect of no input and some tens of
watts load power, without the grid, by making your own AC supply.

See what happens.

I know what happens because I have done it many times and did many experiments with single phase, 120v, 60Hz four pole induction motors running as generators in island mode. As you may know this usually requires a reactive current which is in fact a very real current by any name which is subject to ohmic losses. The common sense approach would be to use a variable speed DC motor to run an AC motor as a generator with a reactive current in island mode at which point the input is a straightforward DC measurement. Note that if too much power is draw from the generator the reactive current will decrease to the point where output will rapidly fall to zero which would suggest it is in fact not imaginary,lol.

As well once I understood exaclty what happens and why I also understood that most people including some experts don't actually understand the induction process. For instance the stator coils have a changing current which produces a changing magnetic field which induces a current in the single turn rotor bars. This is simply a transformer if the rotor is stationary however once the single turn conductors start moving relative to the stationary stator field then "extra" voltage is induced in the stator which produces extra current.

At which point we can use a simple example to explain induction motors and generators without all the BS terminology confounding the issue.

I have a ball which I am bouncing with my hand up and down and I must give it a push periodically to keep it in motion because of frictional losses. The ball bouncing is reactive power, it is a real ball however it's motion is mostly conserved. Now if the ball hit a sponge on the ground and lost some motion then this would represent a load and I would have to push harder on each stroke to keep the ball in motion. The gain in motion by my pushing and the loss in motion to the sponge is what we call real or true power. This is true because the power dissipated in the sponge must be made up by the power of my pushing harder on the ball... the transfer of Energy. If the ball speeds up it's a generator and if the ball slows down it's a motor and if the ball does neither then it is neither a motor nor a generator.

It simply boggles the mind that so many supposedly smart people could twist and distort something so simple into such an unintelligible mess. This is easy however as is most often the case the textbooks must go out the window and we must get our hands dirty and prove the matter for ourselves. As it turns out a "reactive current" by definition is not needed and a periodic DC source can replace it. As well an induction generator does not need to be at synchronous speed to make it's rated voltage and current and can actually be run at quite low RPM... go figure.

AC

[boguslaw]

Farmhand

For me it's not that simple because I have sinewave inverter but it takes 3Amps at 12V in IDLE mode without load. There is too much to test reliably anything, especially if max output is 300VA or 150-200W

[nilrehob]

I just did a first test:
Luc reactive test 1 - YouTube

/Hob

[gotoluc]

Congratulation Hob,

you are the first to replicate the circuit correctly.

I shared this information exactly one month ago to the day (Nov 15th)

Now for your next test, short the Secondary and add a Low value 1 to 10 ohms resistor in Series on the return leg (non cap side) of the Primary. This is now a low voltage but high current output.
Start with 1 ohms and work your way up till the watts are at minimum. The voltage across the resistor is equal to power you can take out of the circuit.

After you have found the ideal resistor value make a new video to show and I will give you the next test of what to do with this power.

All the best

Luc

[Farmhand]

Farmhand

For me it's not that simple because I have sinewave inverter but it takes 3Amps at 12V in IDLE mode without load. There is too much to test reliably anything, especially if max output is 300VA or 150-200W

Yes well, how can you get the AC power without it costing something ?

The power company has a lot of overheads, it is not free to produce the AC to
begin with. Make your own AC and then use that for the experiments to see
what is free and what isn't. Or don't do it, I am not really bothered either way.

..

[nilrehob]

I just did a second test:
Luc Reactive Test 2 - YouTube

/Hob

[gotoluc]

Again an excellent replication Hob. Love your resistive load switch box!

For some time I was also unable to decide if the meters are able to read power correctly. I don't think they can when PF is close to zero.
The only way I could think of testing the circuit to see if it can deliver real power (hopefully at no cost) was to build a generator and see if it causes a load to the alternator and prime mover once the circuit is connected.
To my surprise it didn't cause a load (if tuned correctly) to the prime mover and delivered real power.
From that I concluded we can extract power from a generator and that maybe we can do the same from the grid without losses to the grid provider.

The real question is, can we extract enough power from an Alternator head and feed it back to its prime mover to keep the alternator turning?... many tests will need to be done to better understand the circuit.

For your next test, instead of the series resistor on the Primary leg place the AC legs of a FWBR in series and connect the DC side to a battery. Now you have a reactive battery charger.

Keep up the tests

Luc

[nilrehob]

A FWBR and a battery is exactly what I had in mind myself, this is just what I did in some of my other experiments on the generator-side of my Bedini-energizer, as in Charging in Series in Series - YouTube (and a few other vids as well). What I found is that HV helps to mask the voltage-drop across the battery (just as we do with diodes), and a spark-gap also enhances the charging. :-) What makes charging batteries so interesting is that the voltage-drop stays the same (more or less) regardless of the current.

/Hob

[totoalas]

For the FWBR in series , Dreamyear has done this also to charge his lap top .......
Very good results
In Barbosa patent they used 2 turns on the secondary in the mot and closed loop is wrapped with earth wire......

[thedude]

My 2 bits.

Just wanted to say thanks to Gotoluc for sharing his research with us. I just wanted to share my results with Gotoluc's Reactive Motor Generator line of experimentation. Please accept that I am illustrating my unique setup and my conclusions should not in anyway represent Gotoluc's research. I am aware that i'm doing some things a little differently and still need to be able to attach my oscilloscope safely. Also note that i started off playing with variable levels of capacitance on primary and secondary with a few different (much lighter loads) and found interesting results which encouraged me to move to heavier loads and eventually added my tesla pancake coil into the mix.
Watch my video on youtube here> Reactive Motor Experiment

I have to admit, initially I was very enthusiastic with what i was seeing as positive results. However, further instrumentation did dispel some misleading indications (kill-a-watt meter). There is a good chance that anyone using a Kill-a-watt style meter can find that they are not accurate while measuring inductive loads. I think my video, if anything, is a good representation of when that meter can fail and how misleading it can be. Other readings (fluke meters) in my case are still showing up to %50 reduction in wattage usage by the load. However I have yet to confirm an equivalent output by the load at those readings. I will be able to make a better assessment of torque output from the motor once i have some more AC caps to add to the bank in series with the load to bring the voltage closer to 120volts. If the gain in efficiency remains, then who knows? I see there is potential in this line of research, and I hope that Gotoluc and others are still seeing positive results. There are still so many things to try and to play around with in my case.

I'm doing things a little different with regard to my secondary cap bank. I understand the purpose of this experiment is to achieve a 90 degree phase relationship between the primary and secondary, however I am ill-equiped to set up ground isolation for my fluke oscilloscope at this time. I could use some good advice on the best way to achieve this as i've seen a few recommendations. Is winding one to one transformer the best way?

On the primary side winding of my MOT i have large (floor sander motor) load in series with 4 - (parallel) 320vac 17.5uf capacitors (70uf total) which are both being fed from my voltage variac AC power source. I found I could run the motor at 35uf capacitance however the voltage at the motor was around 50volts (I could stall the motor with my foot but was not easy), and the voltage would increase by roughly 10-15 volts and with each additional 17.5uf i would add also came considerably greater torque output from the motor. On the secondary i am using a self inducing 50' long x 1.25" copper ribbon wound tesla pancake coil with 50' layer of 1/8" vinyl as the dielectric component (works wonderful on nearly any source and spark gap).
Just my first video with this arrangement and once again give thanks to Gotoluc for some inspiration to get working in the lab on something new!

I hope that my addition to this thread is not a distraction from the proper course of research. If so i can move to a different thread as well. Thanks again.

Sincerely,
Darcy

[Muon]

Darcy - thanks for sharing. Its good to see someone in the process of testing and learning - so we can join in the learning experience. Your large Tesla bifilar coil is impressive!

Pls share more as you learn more. Looks like pinning down Pinput may be a bit tricky with this circuit...