Lets start the new year with a bang!

[Mario]

Duncan,

there are a few things you said that don't add up. You want to use pure iron, yet you say that transformer laminate is probably not enough?? Ever heard of eddie currents? If you want to try that setup you better use a ferrite core or at least transformer laminate. That being said I don't think you will see in real world what you describe in theory.
The source (H-bridge) sees a short at resonance if you give it a series resonant setup. At best you would get normal transformer action in my opinion. I don't say this just to ruin your hopes, I'm working on resonant setups right now, and I happen to have a ferrite toroid which already had four windings from previous experiments, so I gave it a go. Instead of an H-bridge I used a power amp driven by a signal generator. Like I suspected I got maximum input amps at resonance which is normal if the amp sees a series setup. On the other two coils I had light bulbs as a load. The best I got was what you'd get with a normal transformer.

If you made the input parallel resonant it would be different, but no in/out gain in the end either. But this is another matter. It takes many hands on experiments until one starts to grasp resonant setups.

I think you should do the experiment, maybe you will find something I missed.

regards,
Mario

[GT899]

Do you think these soft iron rods might work?:
Soft Iron Rod Core for strong electromagnet VERY RARE!! | eBay

I was thinking perhaps make a toroid cast and then melt several of these rods for pouring into the cast?

Here is an interesting site describing different soft and hard magnet materials:
What are soft magnetic material and hard magnetic material?_Zhejiang Sunfine Solar Technology Co., Ltd.

Thanks for sharing all the info you know about this! Free sharing is always the way to go.

[Bob Smith]

... the series resonant impulse wave is making the battery resonant to the electrostatic wave , which allows huge amounts of magnetic current to flow ... IMHO the motors and bad batteries are just a means to develop a sharp impulse wave.
And what you call 'in the zone' is being lucky to find series resonance and stay on it for a while

Duncan,
Thanks so much for your reply. I've been convinced for some years that this was indeed the key to a large influx of energy into these systems. I just needed some help to fill in my gaps in understanding.

Looking at Lee Tseung's recent work at getting Joule Thiefs to operate at resonance and ensuing overunity seems to validate what you're saying. He hasn't had the easiest ride on these forums, but he's operating from a different motivational principle based on free sharing what he's freely been given - something you probably both uphold in your own way.

I suspect a decent PWM might be enough to get this OU effect, between a battery and a load.

The more people talk and share their findings about this, the simpler it will become, I believe. The greatest truths are usually the simplest and clearest, but we often have to have the scales removed from our eyes to see them.

I'm wondering if a simple variation on the joule thief might be a useful place to start in working towards a TPU-type setup. Surely someone has already posted something of this kind - I'll have to do some scanning thru schematics.
A bientot monsieur!
Bob

This shouldn't be that hard once enough of us have a method down.

Edit: Duncan, I believe this corroborates some of what you've said:
Clarifying what cold electricity/radiant output means - YouTube

[Duncan]

Duncan,

there are a few things you said that don't add up. You want to use pure iron, yet you say that transformer laminate is probably not enough?? Ever heard of eddie currents? If you want to try that setup you better use a ferrite core or at least transformer laminate. That being said I don't think you will see in real world what you describe in theory.
The source (H-bridge) sees a short at resonance if you give it a series resonant setup. At best you would get normal transformer action in my opinion. I don't say this just to ruin your hopes, I'm working on resonant setups right now, and I happen to have a ferrite toroid which already had four windings from previous experiments, so I gave it a go. Instead of an H-bridge I used a power amp driven by a signal generator. Like I suspected I got maximum input amps at resonance which is normal if the amp sees a series setup. On the other two coils I had light bulbs as a load. The best I got was what you'd get with a normal transformer.

If you made the input parallel resonant it would be different, but no in/out gain in the end either. But this is another matter. It takes many hands on experiments until one starts to grasp resonant setups.

I think you should do the experiment, maybe you will find something I missed.

regards,
Mario

Hi Mario luckily I can help a little there because although I don’t have my Iron bent I did have some
and I have built my H bridge and the oscillator so I did manage to wind two separate coils and run the whole up to resonance . I am using pure Iron Mario you seem to have it confused with Mild steel . And yes of course coils can be fed at resonance how do you think a Royer ZPS feeds an induction heater ? As for eddy current loss I have to say up until a short while ago I would have agreed with you and vigorously defended it, now I know I was wrong but It takes a lot to explain how I come to that conclusion .. however In brief .. get a coil and cap bring it to resonance watching the waveform on a scope .. sine wave right? Switch the input to a square wave .. still a sine wave right? Triangle .. still a sine wave in other words there is a transformation of form.
you assume as we have been taught series resonance would perform the same transformation .. It does not ! You cannot see it (how can you see current) to put a resistor however small defeats the object however the transform is to an Impulse. But you have to drill through all the trig transforms to get to that conclusion. This isnt DC either Its Vector is not in any quadrant normally used.
Being an impulse of course I'm not concerned about eddy current . This isn't AC this also isn't any technology you know anything about at all. In this area you are a thick as two short planks and so was I a very short time ago . This is impulse technology. It collects the electrostatic wave and transforms into magnetic current. just as a in a radio parallel resonance transforms the electromagnetic wave into a feeble voltage .. except there's nothing feeble about this current.
So whilst its great to have your input Mario and if you have the equipment I in return respectfully suggest you go and test it and prove it to yourself instead of assuming you simply know when like most (including myself a short time ago) in the area of impulse technology we all know the square root of F'all

[Duncan]

Do you think these soft iron rods might work?:
Soft Iron Rod Core for strong electromagnet VERY RARE!! | eBay

I was thinking perhaps make a toroid cast and then melt several of these rods for pouring into the cast?

Here is an interesting site describing different soft and hard magnet materials:
What are soft magnetic material and hard magnetic material?_Zhejiang Sunfine Solar Technology Co., Ltd.

Thanks for sharing all the info you know about this! Free sharing is always the way to go.

Thanks for the links and information :thumb sup: If I had those available here in the UK I would have tried them long ago . I’m kinda obliged to go with Iron . the question for me there would be can they be bent? Its still constructive assistance your offering which I really appreciate I had a magnetic question on another forum .. here is the bulk of my reply

that's not thinking like an engineer is it? 1000 watts goes in (say) and moves the cone accordingly it is of course physically moving the cone back and forth that consumes 1000W . it can't be a PM magnet can it ? indeed here's an animation .
HowStuffWorks "How Speakers Work"
The material the core of what is called 'the voice coil' is what Steve Mark used ... that coil is taking all the input power ,changing it to lateral movement and physically moving that cone very fast back and forth.* the big PM magnet your thinking of is effectively a counter balance .. I'm not interested in that at all . it is the substance that the voice coil is wound on probably a sintered material of some sort* .. Steve Mark .. had access to it , it has every quality needed here ... light weight, very soft magnetically, capable of handling huge power. capable of being' formed ' obviously for different speakers . actually absolutely the reverse of what you say Grumage the stuff has no magnetic retention at all the speaker cone always returns to the centre position . pressed into the right shape it has every requirement I need , so I know what it does, I know how it does it , I know its frequency response , I know its power handling, I know its Retentivity* I can even work out its B/H curve . That's not guess work or thinking about it ... that's just simple pure engineering every step of the way .... I've never seen the stuff, and I cant remember the last time I ever butchered a Loudspeaker ... but that 'stuff' has all the qualities required to make the Christmas card jump about! perhaps I cant get my hands on it, but someone out in forum land can and will I'm sure. I didn't put the post up for me ultimately anyway I posted all the engineering and the principles of every step and that sir is very unusual (as you know) from here anyone at all has as much chance of building ,proving ,demonstrating* the thing as I do. I'm quite sure the principles, technology and logic /detective work are right .... who's got the exotic magnetics is the question.

[Duncan]

Re enforcing bar for concrete I think would be a good source

Regards

Mike

Sorry Mike I missed your post .. thats a thought .. Re bar I guess thats going to be pretty pure to avoid rust .. I'll see what I can find out. .. as always a big help

[GSM]

Hi Duncan,

Could a TPU not be wound over *straight* iron sides - the magnetic circuit would still be equally closed ?

Rectangular transformers have been fine throughout electrical history - prior to toroidal winding becoming possible.

Straight sections would also be easy for basic hands-on development - *prior to* circularly worked optimisation !!!

Cheers ........... Graham.

[Mario]

Hi Mario luckily I can help a little there because although I don’t have my Iron bent I did have some
and I have built my H bridge and the oscillator so I did manage to wind two separate coils and run the whole up to resonance . I am using pure Iron Mario you seem to have it confused with Mild steel . And yes of course coils can be fed at resonance how do you think a Royer ZPS feeds an induction heater ? As for eddy current loss I have to say up until a short while ago I would have agreed with you and vigorously defended it, now I know I was wrong but It takes a lot to explain how I come to that conclusion .. however In brief .. get a coil and cap bring it to resonance watching the waveform on a scope .. sine wave right? Switch the input to a square wave .. still a sine wave right? Triangle .. still a sine wave in other words there is a transformation of form.
you assume as we have been taught series resonance would perform the same transformation .. It does not ! You cannot see it (how can you see current) to put a resistor however small defeats the object however the transform is to an Impulse. But you have to drill through all the trig transforms to get to that conclusion. This isnt DC either Its Vector is not in any quadrant normally used.
Being an impulse of course I'm not concerned about eddy current . This isn't AC this also isn't any technology you know anything about at all. In this area you are a thick as two short planks and so was I a very short time ago . This is impulse technology. It collects the electrostatic wave and transforms into magnetic current. just as a in a radio parallel resonance transforms the electromagnetic wave into a feeble voltage .. except there's nothing feeble about this current.
So whilst its great to have your input Mario and if you have the equipment I in return respectfully suggest you go and test it and prove it to yourself instead of assuming you simply know when like most (including myself a short time ago) in the area of impulse technology we all know the square root of F'all

Duncan, did you read my post? I said I ran the circuit you posted!! And I told you what I found, which is what I expected, even though I was open.
Duncan, I STROONGLY suggest you start building and experimenting instead of just throwing theories at people waiting for them to build and confirm. Once you have confirmed it to yourself, THEN and only then should you write posts as if you knew everything about the subject.
I'm not saying at all that I know everything on resonant circuits, but at least I have been reading, thinking, experimenting and building circuits for the last six years and have gained some hands on knowledge about the matter! You can't do this just in your head ok?
Now start please start building something… then let us know what you found.

Mario

[Duncan]

nit wit

Duncan, did you read my post? I said I ran the circuit you posted!! And I told you what I found, which is what I expected, even though I was open.
Duncan, I STROONGLY suggest you start building and experimenting instead of just throwing theories at people waiting for them to build and confirm. Once you have confirmed it to yourself, THEN and only then should you write posts as if you knew everything about the subject.
I'm not saying at all that I know everything on resonant circuits, but at least I have been reading, thinking, experimenting and building circuits for the last six years and have gained some hands on knowledge about the matter! You can't do this just in your head ok?
Now start please start building something… then let us know what you found.

Mario

your windings are on one toroid Mario -- quite worthless as I said .. I have built my share my friend and there's plenty on here. not that I feel particularly obliged to I'm quite happy to conjecture and read others conjecture on this occasion I am building .. I am however not impressed with your experiments that don’t relate. that series resonance is a state of minimum impedance is of course in every primary school book. that isn't a short circuit though is it? did you actually go to school anywhere ? And if so was it anything to do with electricity? I don’t mean to be unkind but if you don’t know the difference between minimum impedance and short circuit I can't see you possibly contributing anything of worth here can you? Two short planks comes instantly to mind. there are people busy here who know ohms law .. please go amuse yourself else where.
Short circuit if you had another brain cell it would be lonely good laugh though hey lucky I know you can't be serious

[Mario]

Ok Duncan, go and hook a coil and cap in series to the output of an amp, and tune freq to resonance, what does the amp see in your opinion? It sees close to zero impedance, only the resistance in the wires, meaning maximum amps, right, which is pretty close to a short circuit, depending on the Q of the coil.

I only tuned in to say what the result of your circuit was from what I saw on the bench since I had the tools at hand, if it was not supposed to be on a closed toroid core then I apologise, it's not what you were talking about. I apologise for giving your circuit and ideas a shot, very sorry about that. Won't ever do that again...

Hope you find what you're looking for, hopefully not only in theory, but I'm done waisting my time with you Duncan and any other armchair scientist, besides, your post is unkind and rude.

I'll go back and spend my time on my own experiments now…

Mario

[Duncan]

another bit of the puzzle?

sadly missed .. nobody needs miss direction Mario and that’s what that was . You sounded pompous and sure of yourself and then wrote a lot of plausible twaddle. There are people here trying to unravel this holy grail and by the way lets get this very very clear I don't mind if they help from an arm chair or a work bench . You might have thought you were helping posting some erroneous rubbish I did not. No doubt given half a chance you would turn every other law of electricity upside down?
There are folks trying very hard to grasp the concepts of things they don't fully understand here (including me) I don’t need the thread used as a midden heap as well I have enough trouble sorting the chaff from the wheat as it is!
Talking of sorting things out … another bit seems to have fallen into place regarding the magnetic material . This link was posted on OUR forum
Voice coil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the voice coil material is obviously what concerns. But This is the first time I've seen it . Now this fits into place …. that material can “Transduce” a huge amount of power .. It can do it laterally, and efficiently . It is attached to the cone .. its very light weight , the toroid permanent magnet obvious acts as a counter balance (sort of) to hold the cone in the centre . You see how flimsy it is for all its phenomenal magnetic properties? The bit that clicks into place is now I see how Steve Mark could cut through a working toroid can't you ? The outside was made of that stuff .. I don’t have the video though anybody else want to see if they can see it ?

[Mario]

So you're not even answering my simple question and say it's rubbish?

"...go and hook a coil and cap in series to the output of an amp, and tune freq to resonance, what does the amp see in your opinion? It sees close to zero impedance, only the resistance in the wires, meaning maximum amps, right, which is pretty close to a short circuit, depending on the Q of the coil…"

Is this rubbish? Answer straight and don't go on babbling your endless theories.

See, I'm looking for the same thing as everyone here, except for the misleading spooks.. I've read most of the theories and stories you keep talking about and many convinced me 100%, in theory. But when you then go to the bench and actually test things you may find many of them to be what they are, stories. If I wouldn't be convinced deep down that it is possible to go OU I wouldn't spend so much money and time of my life working on this stuff. But what matters is what you find on the bench.

Now answer my question above…

Mario

[Duncan]

So you're not even answering my simple question and say it's rubbish?

"...go and hook a coil and cap in series to the output of an amp, and tune freq to resonance, what does the amp see in your opinion? It sees close to zero impedance, only the resistance in the wires, meaning maximum amps, right, which is pretty close to a short circuit, depending on the Q of the coil…"

Is this rubbish? Answer straight and don't go on babbling your endless theories.

See, I'm looking for the same thing as everyone here, except for the misleading spooks.. I've read most of the theories and stories you keep talking about and many convinced me 100%, in theory. But when you then go to the bench and actually test things you may find many of them to be what they are, stories. If I wouldn't be convinced deep down that it is possible to go OU I wouldn't spend so much money and time of my life working on this stuff. But what matters is what you find on the bench.

Now answer my question above…

Mario

Listen Mario you may think the difference between minimum impedance and a short circuit is not important .. I think its very important, I have already told you I have already wound coils onto iron bars and tried it , I don’t intend doing it again at your behest . It wasn't testing with an amp
or AC or a square wave .. it doesn't apply . And no I was no where near a short circuit I was at minimum impedance which of course is a design parameter . And strangely what the books say and not this vomit you have managed to regurgitate from somewhere .So what you have done is connected some old coils which don't relate , on a toroid that doesn’t relate, to a signal source that doesn't relate in order that you can spout some absolute rubbish about series resonance being a short circuit which it most certainly isn't and .. that does not relate to any electrical theory I have ever read any where, and then you wonder why I cant be bothered to answer you ? If you can't work that out it also says quite a lot about your dullard approach to electrical engineering , and as you indicate going off about your other very important practical investigations might be a good idea .. don’t let me detain you. I eagerly await the square wheel, I have now answered your question I dont intenend responding to anymore orders on my own thread .. now answer me indeed ! just who do you think you are ? .. your certainly a numpty I could do with out ! series resonance is a short circuit ,, is about as much use as tits on a kipper, I think you can leave in short jerky movements .. goodbye I shan't be responding to anymore of your purile diatribe!

[GSM]

Is this rubbish? Answer straight and don't go on babbling your endless theories.
Now answer my question above…
Mario

Hi Mario.

You obviously know what you are writing about - but NOT about what Duncan is writing about !

What is happening within the TPU segments is quite different to the electromagnetics taught in colleges and universities.

Duncan is right, he DOES know, and he is attempting to help others understand,
the problem being trying to write in a 'conventional' manner others might follow.

So Mario, Duncan is NOT wrong, and although the interpretations of his words might be, he really is trying hard to clarify,
and what must be understood here -
is that subsection core fields can be induced to series-parallel reverse in ways NOT envisioned via classical scientific experience.

Cheers ........... Graham.

[Duncan]

yeah listen .. I'm very tired Mario ... sorry man I'll come back in a while when I've calmed down ...