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Thermal Energy, Somthing to think about.

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  • #16
    I think a good chemist could probably answer this best but I did find this info that seems relevant:
    "Water molecules can move in three ways. They can move by vibration, rotation, and translation. Ice is not very free to move. Ice can vibrate but ice remains rigid. Liquid water moves freely but since the molecules are still very close together they do not move as freely as air.

    Solid water (ice) is the most ordered state of H20 while gas is the least ordered. In order for ice to go from an ice to a liquid state, energy must be added to cause the ice to go from a higher state to a lower ordered state. When ice melts or water evaporates, energy must be taken from the environment in order for the ice or liquid to move to a less ordered state. Energy is needed to weaken the individual hydrogen bonds between H20 molecules. When water (in any of the three phrases) moves from a higher to a lower ordered state, the air surrounding the H20 will have heat subtracted from it. The three processes that subtract heat from the surrounding air are evaporation, melting and sublimation (solid to gas). When water (in any of the three phrases) moves from a lower to a higher ordered state, the air surrounding the H20 will have energy added to it. This is called a release of latent heat (e.g. when heat is subtracted from liquid water, the individual water molecules will slow down. They eventually slow down to the point at which the hydrogen bonds do not allow the liquid to rotate anymore. Ice now develops. The energy the water molecules once had to rotate has been given up to the surrounding air). The three processes that add heat to the surrounding air are condensation, freezing and deposition (gas to solid).

    IMPORTANT: the processes of evaporation and condensation take 7.5 times as much energy as melting or freezing. This is why evaporational cooling will cool the air much more than the melting of snow. For example, let's say snow is falling and the outside temperature is 40 degrees Fahrenheit. As the snow falls into the warmer air it will begin to melt and some of it will be evaporating. The evaporation from the wet snow will cool the air 7.5 times as much as the melting of the snow. If the temperature drops from 40 to 32 degrees as the snow falls, about 7 of those 8 degrees of cooling is caused by the evaporation process. Melting cools the air also, just not near as much as evaporation does. When water undergoes a phase change (a change from solid, liquid or gas to another phase) the temperature of the H20 stays at the same temperature. Why? Energy is being used to either weaken the hydrogen bonds between H20 molecules or energy is being taken away from the H20 which tightens the hydrogen bonds. When ice melts, energy is being taken from the environment and absorbed into the ice to loosen the hydrogen bonds. The energy taken to loosen the hydrogen bonds causes the surrounding air to cool (energy is taken away from the environment: this is latent heat absorption). The temperature of the melting ice however stays the same until all the ice is melted. All hydrogen bonds must be broken from the solid state before energy can be used to increase the H20's temperature.

    Energy always flows from a warmer object toward a colder object. An ice cube at 32 degrees F absorbs energy from air that has a temperature warmer than freezing. Energy flows from the room toward the ice cube. Throw enough ice cubes in your kitchen and you may notice the temperature of the air cooling slightly. Energy is taken from your warmer room and moved into the ice cubes to melt them; A subtraction of energy causes cooling. The same holds when comparing freezing to condensation. The condensation process will warm the surrounding air 7.5 times as much as when the freezing process occurs."
    There is no important work, there are only a series of moments to demonstrate your mastery and impeccability. Quote from Almine

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    • #17
      Wizard
      This AM the outside temp was 5 F the cube was measuring 17 F
      after sitting all night in 0 F air ?

      I thought the probe was centered in the annulus it was not [had fallen to bottom outside edge ] however this will be good comparison data for tonights "centered test".

      The cube still maintaining that high temp from colder air is the strange thing?

      thx for your very interesting input.

      Chet
      If you want to Change the world
      BE that change !!

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      • #18
        Ramset, I'm not familiar with the probe you are using but if it is metal or heat (or cold) conductive it may be indicating a colder temperature than even the ice is if part of it is exposed to the cold air. Taking from what I know and that quote above I would say that water holds a huge amount of heat (as I mentioned more than any other substance per mole (6 x 10 to the 23rd molecules) ) so when it changes to a solid state I believe it takes a very very cold temperature to extract more heat from it and thus it often stays close to 32 degrees F.
        There is no important work, there are only a series of moments to demonstrate your mastery and impeccability. Quote from Almine

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        • #19
          So as a part of my test I'll make an ice cube everyday and see if the temperature of the ice cubes lowers the longer its in the freezer set on 28 degf.

          If the cube does decline in temperature than its stored energy, if it does not decline then what? Vibration / friction most likely caused from gravity or magnetism, or something like that. We'll get the answer for sure, but what good it will do who knows. Like you said the answer probably out there.

          Matt

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          • #20
            Ambient 15 F test cell 31.1 F [11 hrs at 4 F -15 F

            Test cell is a 3" diameter By 10" tall tupperware drinking glass with a paper dixie cup holding the probe dead center.

            @Wizzrd
            This probe is wrapped in a soft polymer? I use this in High amp high volt water heater plasma tests .

            it does react very slow to the cold once I plug it into the unit.

            I think I will see about ordering a few more probes ,
            @Mattew
            silly thought but maybe the outside environment will be different than in a freezer?
            where will you take the temp of the cubes from ?

            I love water ....,I hope it is teaching us something a bit special here regarding R value and the environment.

            thx
            Chet
            Ps
            I have briefly spoken with a temp measurement specialist ,now I will ask for a bit more of a proper protocol for these experiments.
            also for advice on the cheap accurate thermocouple construction.
            I would like to Cast/imbed them in different materials.
            If you want to Change the world
            BE that change !!

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            • #21
              Summary "Ambient " at test time.

              Day 1 was 12 degrees higher that 10 hr ambient
              Day 2 was 16.1 higher than 10 hr ambient

              Test Jig tupperware drinking cup 3 inch dia By 10 inch tall w/paper cup centering probe

              test device - TES 1310 type - K [NOT Calibrated yet for this temp range]

              sorry for the skewed data above forum seems to like it that way no matter how many times I fix it???[ ""edit"" removed data ]
              Last edited by RAMSET; 01-09-2014, 02:34 PM.
              If you want to Change the world
              BE that change !!

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              • #22
                I was thinking I would shoot it with the laser temp thing. It works pretty good.

                I was thinking about freezing a metal thermometer into the ice, Use something to maker a hollow void in the middle.

                I gotta find something for that and I am not going to town till this weekend.

                I got you going though, I am happy about that.

                Matt

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