Water Generator!

[Plastickmat]

Hi guys, currently working on a project with a couple of team mates in college and this is all new stuff to us, we are at the stage of putting together the "generator" part of our water generating mill that uses water current to spin a turbine (something quite classic but the goal is to conceive it from A - Z )

What bums out most of us, is how exactly the magnets need to be positioned (distance from wiring, spacing etc.) , the size and number of them is also unknown. What about how much WIRING we need is there a way to calculate all of these parameters?

its a hypothetical "20-50KW" producing generator (yes quite big but since we are only going to be drawing out the plans and only going conception wise its more of a number crunching scenario as the generator will never actually be made in this project)

What materials are best used considering price is not a problem for now, and how do we determine the speed the generator needs to spin to get a set amount of power (I know car generators can spin anywhere from 500RPM to 7000RPM on most cars and a voltage regulator seems to keep voltages ranging between 11-14V as an average)

Thanks for all your time!

I thank all of you for your time

[plasmahunt3r]

Low RPM Supplies

What you want is a low RPM Permanent Magnent Alternator. You can run 3 phase AC over a long distance using normal outdoor extension chord. Then convert it to DC when you get it to your house. If you want to tie into the House AC power, you will need a grid tie inverter, so that the phase will match. Grid tie inverters also have a failsafe in case the power goes out.

Check out this site for supplies. They have everything from parts (for the DIYer) to complete systems.

Missouri Wind and Solar

[mikrovolt]

I like your enthusiasm with permanent magnets.

Many become disappointed when they find that the pm generator really does'nt do what they thought and the easy turning efficiency is related to the load and resonance. Even though it is better than old conventional alternators when they look inside they find more copper winding but iron is still needed. For the right load this is better setup. Again the load need to match the drive source. missori solar wind has good product but you need to have other parts of the system and there is more research needed in the electronic control load matching. It is a promising start for an experienced engineer.

An axial flux generator ( disk containing coils set in epoxy ) with no iron are very good but the parts may not be available. The use of high gauss magnets so is very nice way to crank out some watts.

With HHO it is important to understand that plasma is the most efficient catalyst in utilizing HHO.
For those bringing HHO forward the correct pdf on plasma fuel reforming is online, be careful of other pdfs like it.

Onboard -Plasmatron Hydrogen Production
Daniel R. Cohn
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Heavy Vehicle Systems Review
Argonne National Laboratory
April 19, 2006

Argonne labs has proven here that a tiny amount of hho is very powerful.
In 1959 there was an airplane motor made by Allison that incorporated the air intake safely over the exaust manifold,
the motor was cast iron and had good longevity. an aluminum head would warp. cast iron cylinder was less likely to
develop erosion spots fissions by hydrogen. Today developers in USA and a few other places are forced to machine
there own products because outsourcing would get fouled easily. Missouri solar Wind has made progress with the PM.

Much success !

[Plastickmat]

Wow Thanks Guys !

In quick reply to plasmahunt3r, I had guessed and did some research concerning the fact it was best to get a low RPM setup, I was looking at what was required to achieve this and it seems that there's proportion with the number of POLES involved to reduce as much as possible the RPM necessary to achieve a specific frequency (and or voltage/current still unsure of some facts) My question would be how would I efficiently size this if I know the approximate water force and speed coming through my turbine.

In reply to your response mikrovolt, I was just thinking about that because our concept is underwater, and we haven'T really found an efficient way to seal the magnet compartment from water infiltration without comprising "zero friction" on the spin of the wheel, would epoxy covered windings resist being exposed to water and does a magnetic field lose effiency under water? Can current still be produced?

[kenssurplus]

Hi, thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth.

Issues regarding corect matching for magnets / wire coils / diameter of generator / and RPM for a known power source and desired output can be gathered from here:

The Bottom Line About Wind Turbines | Otherpower with specific detail about a 6kw unit here:20 Foot Page 2 - Stator | Otherpower

Regarding underwater generator operation, I am not sure there is a good solution that I know of. The only thing I can think of is to transfer your mechanical power out of the water with a shaft/ chain / cable / or pneumatic / haydraulic lines and then run your generator above water level.

There are pumps that run magnetic couplings where there is no shaft seal just a spinning magnet(s) on the dry side magnetically coupled to matching iron bar(s) in the wet pump section. But you would still have to have a dry water and pressure tight compartment for the gen section.

[BobBrown]

The Generator is only half the machine.
How you get the water to the turbines , can effect how efficently that water can be used.

Note here : viktor schauberger

This man knew everything about water, and how to make it work for you.

He even designed a turbine that was multiple times more efficent than the ones in use, on the same dam. The engineers, played the knowledge close to thier chest, the efficiency was that good, nobody would have believed them.


Andrew

[mikrovolt]

Since the project is number crunching on large commercial level then a modular approach would simplify the design. What I mean by modular approach is that 25 each units producing 2kW would be 50kW. So one module alone produces 2kW. There is a savings in putting them on just one shaft. In an axial configuration the coils are set in epoxy and use 24 gauge wire.
The magnets should be very strong. There are sacrifices made because of water and isolation is preferred for large units for liability reasons. The shaft needing to be water tight uses special seals like an outboard motor uses.

[Plastickmat]

Since the turbine will not have a shaft but on the contrary will bear magnets on its perimeter (in a sealed compartment that I have not yet imagined how I will seal since it is moving) than I also think there are advantages to reducing moving parts.

Any suggestions for the sealing compartment?

[wrtner]

I have never really understood the Tesla Turbine but I think you should check it out nonetheless. And, of course, the ever present:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk
.

[Plastickmat]

Since the project is number crunching on large commercial level then a modular approach would simplify the design. What I mean by modular approach is that 25 each units producing 2kW would be 50kW. So one module alone produces 2kW. There is a savings in putting them on just one shaft. In an axial configuration the coils are set in epoxy and use 24 gauge wire.
The magnets should be very strong. There are sacrifices made because of water and isolation is preferred for large units for liability reasons. The shaft needing to be water tight uses special seals like an outboard motor uses.

I've been quite busy but I see you have grasped the idea of my questions and project and find it very amusing in a positive way.


The outboard motor type of seal is exactly what I think we need I'm just trying to figure out how I could apply this to a 1.5 meter diameter wheel, and since a motor drives itself, it can overcome friction associated with a seal but when you produce energy from movement friction induced by a seal becomes an efficiency factor (in my opinion) I may be wrong and some seals may be quite efficient in their way...

As for the magnets I find it interesting to use a modular approach but how "APPROXIMATELY" does one "estimate" the distance between each magnet, how long it must be how much winding is necessary to produce an X amount of voltage/current at a fixed RPM of (240RPM for now)

Thanks for your valuable inputs :

PS. I looked at the tesla turbine and do not completely understand the concept as I see its a series of lines on a cylinder there doesn't seem to actually be a "blade" onto which a fluid or gas propells from..?
Thanks again