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  • I agree with Matt, a fast turn off is only important to creating higher voltage
    from coil discharges and both turn off and on quickly to allow and disallow
    current is mainly for reducing the power dissipation in the switch. And too
    fast of a turn on or off can cause unwanted ringing ect. Sometimes we may
    use a gate resistor to slow down the turn on and off or suppress ringing at
    the gate.

    With the cap dumping, I look at it two ways, the way I used in my posted
    setup was to dump a relatively small capacitance at higher frequency and
    not fully discharging the capacitor, this is mainly to hasten the desulfating
    process with low input power, pinging the battery with short high current
    spikes.

    Then there is dumping a large capacitance relatively slowly and totally
    discharging the capacitor to get high surge currents through the battery.

    In the later case the turn off time is unimportant in any way except maybe
    to save time so the cap can be recharged sooner, maybe.

    This video shows some wave forms and stuff from a boost converter
    powering a cap dumper/desulfator.

    Note the groups of step discharges of the dump cap towards the end of the video..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZBE4i5UR58

    ..
    Last edited by Farmhand; 05-27-2014, 06:11 AM.

    Comment


    • Wow Thanks A million

      Originally posted by Farmhand View Post
      I agree with Matt, a fast turn off is only important to creating higher voltage
      from coil discharges and both turn off and on quickly to allow and disallow
      current is mainly for reducing the power dissipation in the switch. And too
      fast of a turn on or off can cause unwanted ringing ect. Sometimes we may
      use a gate resistor to slow down the turn on and off or suppress ringing at
      the gate.

      With the cap dumping, I look at it two ways, the way I used in my posted
      setup was to dump a relatively small capacitance at higher frequency and
      not fully discharging the capacitor, this is mainly to hasten the desulfating
      process with low input power, pinging the battery with short high current
      spikes.

      Then there is dumping a large capacitance relatively slowly and totally
      discharging the capacitor to get high surge currents through the battery.

      In the later case the turn off time is unimportant in any way except maybe
      to save time so the cap can be recharged sooner, maybe.

      This video shows some wave forms and stuff from a boost converter
      powering a cap dumper/desulfator.

      Note the groups of step discharges of the dump cap towards the end of the video..

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZBE4i5UR58

      ..

      Thanks so much Farmhand

      Yes I see clearly now and the truth is I have always known that my coil rings but my cap doesn't. So cool of you to show me this video

      I have those forms on my scope with coils.

      And the Sawtooth form is a further verification of how the cap looks on the power side like Matt said.

      @MATT

      Yes you are right and getting me back on focus because I was going from gate wave forms to the power wave forms and back and forth in my mind.

      Just like a toddler nearly falling over, I told you guys I needed help to walk here

      Both of you gentlemen have helped be today a great deal at a very critical time for me to stay on track.

      Yes I am spending a good deal of time building my forced Oscillator to fill caps proper. Very important I agree.

      So if i have anymore bright ideas I know who to ask

      Thanks so much you don't know how important this is to me.

      Mike PS I thought we wanted ringing? And that ringing is part of radiant? That was my only puzzling thought.

      Comment


      • Batteries as heavy as a Car

        Originally posted by Matthew Jones
        For 12 volt battery my cap dumper charges to 28 volt. But the cap I use is very small 20k uf. Even on the big batteries. I hit the battery 2 times a second with a 9-12 amp pulse and the cap discharges to 14.2 volt.
        If I were to use a bigger cap say .1f I would charge only to 20 volt.
        For a 36 volt system I would charge to 75 volt with 20k uf cap and 50 volt with .1f cap.

        I am not following what you are saying so that should give you an example.

        To high of voltage and you can damage the plate material on the battery. Like wise if you create to much current you are waisting power into heat.

        Matt
        Yes true Matt

        To much power running into a battery with high surges can not only desulfate but damage as well. Sometimes over the last 1 year I will run my caps up to 40-50vdc and dump down to 20vdc FOR A HUGE HUGE HUGE BATTERY.

        I have one 110ah AGM battery that I do this with. This battery is capable of giving back 70 amps. This battery single handedly can run my 120vac 7 Amp "Saws All" out in the woods tree trimming half the day.

        If any damage is going to occur it won't be from zapping it with 20 watts of surge energy. I am giving you the details of my experiment now. In the beginning the battery was abandoned as junk.

        I add ALUM.

        I use high voltage to start using the spikes from a Bedini forced oscillator as high as a 75watt input. Then from there I use a small dump, not my biggest dump to high current surge this 110ah Square AGM monstrosity.

        I can start my 40hp air-cooled Wisconsin engine with this battery that requires 50-80amps, so damage to this battery will take some doing.

        I have found many old batteries that will never come back to life and these batteries fooled me. Let me say it this way, if a battery charges up in two minutes and discharges fast that battery is already ruined.

        I have used 5-10 amp current surges at 1 per second by winding up the voltage as high as 45vdc before letting it go.

        Yes this is a 12vdc battery and my battery works better now than it even did. However if you use to much energy you will reach a point that no increase in charging will occur.

        Every battery should be approached in this way. The operator should keep experimenting with input and output surges to see where the battery begins to start to charge. Then continue exploring the higher pulse rates and current surge values.

        For a 1ah battery use very little and so on.

        If my battery is as big as a car and my charging system is very small plus my 100ah wire to the bank is 50feet remember the voltage drop.

        I will be showing off the new setup soon. Voltage drop is a consideration plus size.

        Every battery bank setup requires a different capacitor discharge voltage and sometimes to get the amps high enough and to over come the distance the operator may need 40vdc.

        Also when I lower the pulse rate at night time I can run 45vdc but only one of those per 3 seconds.

        I understand what you are saying Matt and thank you for your input.

        If you have a specific battery size in mind and charger please share your setup so others can gain a perspective.

        These are my practices that I use and my batteries are all high density. My 110ah battery use to only be good for 50ah but now it produces 170ah under the same amp draw rate.

        I have damaged batteries and you are so right Matt. I won't go into that but burning up a battery is due to beginners over charging and over powering it and everyone has to go through this bump in the road.

        Some say only use a max of 10 watts and 20 watts with no battery size given.

        The battery bank size must be known and the distance away form the energizer to deal with loses. It may not be a great lose but still significant.

        I have used 50 watts input where the battery just hangs there in limbo not charging much and when I went to 60watts the battery would charge 10x as fast. This was done by raising the cap bank voltage discharge.

        Mike

        Comment


        • Joule count?

          Originally posted by Matthew Jones
          But if you load your caps correctly with reactive or radiant power and not with real power than those things become less of an issue as the total joule count in the cap is greater than the joule count taken from the source power.

          Matt
          Hi Matt

          I looked back at your earlier posts. Are you saying that the joule count charging caps from a battery charger is less than when using a radiant one?? Same volts in the cap yet more joules?

          Mike

          Comment


          • Are you wanting to pulse the bats with voltage or amperage.
            boost converter will give voltage - pos pulses

            generic circuit-google boost converter.

            buck converter will give amperage - neg pulses

            google buck converter

            Or you could incorporate both into the same circuit
            Half of the Answer is knowing the right Question

            Comment


            • Genmode

              Originally posted by Dave45 View Post
              Are you wanting to pulse the bats with voltage or amperage.
              boost converter will give voltage - pos pulses

              generic circuit-google boost converter.

              buck converter will give amperage - neg pulses

              google buck converter

              Or you could incorporate both into the same circuit
              Thanks Dave

              I will stick with the hybrid converter Oscillator Bedini patented using big coils of magnet wire. Using long wires WITH the converter Oscillator topology is far superior to anything i have seen.

              Most booster converters today employ tiny coils that are far less forgiving than the larger coils. I have noticed that these small coils can be no larger than a golfball in most cases.

              My coil weights 7LBS while those tiny booster circuits have say 3 oz coils at best and depend on high freq's to achieve operation using 3 feet of winding.

              My coils are 130 feet long 14awg wire and I am about to pulse up to 6-8 amps per wire at 9khz using 4 wires. This machine will input 24dc at 25- 40amps sending the output to my caps for dumping.

              This oscillator will briefly fail when the dump comes and reestablish filling caps for the next dump. This is a great way of filling caps because this circuit can tune itself.

              All other circuits are made for one set very narrow very ridged design criteria that would burn out under these dumping operations.

              Mike

              Comment


              • Blown Mosfet (ONE)

                Howdy Howdy Group Members

                I am coming to you today to give you this video

                Pulse Charging BroMikey Cap Dump circuit - YouTube

                It is about how my progress is coming using only 1/4 of the Fet's to pulse the huge cap bank.

                Before when I used IRFP250 Mosfet's using 6 devices or six Mosfet's they got hot and blew out at 50vdc. Really I am struggling to find all of the right words.


                Now with only 3 Mosfet's I was able to pulse charge the entire bank of caps for days in 95 degree heat using a fan. I ran the supply up to 65vdc to pulse a 12volt battery big no no for any small battery, mine are as heavy as some cars.

                I am running the upper limits of these three Fet's using a 10amp @65vdc 3 pulses per second. They warm up and the fan does not stop the sinks for staying mildly warm.

                These devices are a 16amp average part so running them at 6-8amps will extend the life of the component dramatically.

                I really don't know how to relate to you the difference that cap sizes make. For the same rating the physical size may vary.

                My cap bank holds more energy than most setups I have seen. 80 caps in parallel each one with a 14awg wire, caps 2.5 inch high and 1.5 inch dia for 1000uf.

                A single pulse from these caps has burned out 1 or two Fet's on the spot, especially the IRFP250's.

                I am exploring the upper limits of these Fet's as I said and now that I know where they over heat and know what to expect, I am going to drive these same IRFP460's with a new driver to see if wasted heat generated from sloppy switching times will lower heat.

                Pulsing 20-100 watts is easy and you need not be concerned much about much of anything as just about anything from an automotive relay to a reed switch works.

                Yet when going up in power around 1000 watts sloppy driver circuits will show problems with heating. I think many guys tell me that I need to stay with 1 or 2 Fet's as this is hard enough to balance so one is not doing all of the work.

                I am going with 12 Mosfets and thinking about how to get them to automatically balance the load between themselves.

                I would like to learn how to set a Fet at a specific amp handling amp pulse using some form of feedback loop. If I could adjust one Fet and one driver for a single Fet to a given output, I could do all 12 Mosfets the same way so they could all pull together.

                I can't be the first man to think this up.

                Mike

                Comment


                • Back up and running

                  Hello Group members

                  I wanted to give you a report from my last video where I had thought the 555 timing circuit went pop. It did not and I guess I am bugging out every-time things pops so i think it is a cap or a driver but instead it was none of the above.

                  Yes one of my Fets weaken and would not switch after 30vdc but that was probably due to my bad brush on my variac that was blowing breakers.

                  You think?

                  The brush needed to be adjusted and so it would arc till the breaker popped every time I reset it. Opened it up and everything was fine on all other components as they are over rated.

                  Also will be showing a new video with the timer circuit still running along plus all of the new amp meters bouncing.

                  Each time I add another Mosfet in parallel with the rest I go up in amps for each pulse.

                  So far I can really ring that bell so to speak when it comes to putting the hammer down.I have been puttering all day adding fan temp switch and overload protection.

                  Now the dump fan comes on by itself and so if I run the power up by increasing the pulses per second it will stay on so I need to finish the Fet's for a total of 9 more.

                  I bought these Fets and the legs break off ever so easy if I move them much. Has anyone every had that happen? They are IRFP460's.

                  These Fet can handle high power at the voltages I require.

                  Even those big batteries don't stand a chance against this big dump.

                  I can get some high powered current pulses out of this box that forced me to go to a less sensitive amp meter so i wasn't pegging the nettle.

                  Before I used a mini 5 amp meter but now with the same power level it only shows 2 amp pulses so now i have approx 5X that energy to move this shunted amp meter.

                  It shows as high as 15 amp pulses when I know it is in the 50's and 100's and this is all at 12vdc. When i move up to the 24vdc charging I fill my caps to 85 voltage so as the repetitive discharges come there is always 75 volts available between RC charge ups.

                  I will then need to use a bigger amp meter that shows a 30amp pulse.

                  Mike
                  Last edited by BroMikey; 06-01-2014, 10:18 AM.

                  Comment


                  • My cap Bank

                    Circuit diagram deleted
                    Last edited by BroMikey; 07-08-2014, 07:13 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Well if they are all just 90k uf then thats not bad. I would have thought it bigger from looking at it.

                      Matt

                      Comment


                      • Small Cap Bank Large Physically

                        Originally posted by Matthew Jones View Post
                        Well if they are all just 90k uf then thats not bad. I would have thought it bigger from looking at it.

                        Matt

                        Hi Matt and group members here is another video

                        BroMikey Cap Dump Part 2 - YouTube


                        In this video you can see this dump kicking that big batteries backside .

                        Mike

                        Comment


                        • What Efficiency are you measuring?

                          I have been following the discussion since it seems to relate to stuff I am doing. May I ask what you are looking at as your figure of merit? Your battery (batteries?) are now charging up to 13.2 volts? What else are you measuring, if you don't mind sharing?

                          Thanks...
                          There is a reason why science has been successful and technology is widespread. Don't be afraid to do the math and apply the laws of physics.

                          Comment


                          • Heat and batteries

                            Originally posted by Matthew Jones
                            You failed to understand what I was telling you so I'll say it again...The amount of power you are putting in is not the deciding factor in the charge, its the ability for the battery to store and maintain the environmental charge that follows the pulse. You would be far better off hitting the battery 2 times a second with 1 amp than you are hitting the battery with 10 -15 amps a second. More power does not speed up the process it hinders it.

                            Measure what you are taking out of the wall as opposed to what you are putting in. Did you gain? Do you gain from run to run? Is the battery charging getting more efficient or less? Are you keeping track of it?

                            That may not register with you right away but when you end up cooking the crystals on those plates you'll begin to understand. Your just driving the internal resistance up on the battery and creating heat by using that much power. You can buy those chargers at walmart for 20 dollars all day long no need to build them.

                            Good luck.

                            Matt
                            @Matt

                            Dear Matt $20 walmart chargers produce heat, my batteries are cold because I relax between pulses.

                            By the way, I have a 200 amp roll around battery charger and it doesn't cost $20 it try more like $300-400 US.

                            Bedini style pulse charging is the best way to go. You can't charge a 3000 lb battery with a 1 amp input and top it off a 15.5 vdc in this lifetime.

                            Practical application.

                            Yes I have done everything you suggest and the answer is yes it charges with less LATER. Later as I condition. These batteries are giving me hell and I won't back up because I have been here before and know what to expect.

                            Once it has reached a certain peak charge I will be doing more of the measurement yes. However keep in mind that you don't know what I am up against as you and most people don't use ALUM as an electrolyte.

                            Your little cart battery using standard ACID would be a joke to my beast dump as I would charge that battery twice as fast as any other charger could.

                            Acid is a piece-O-cake, try ALUM and watch what kind of a pain staking effort is required to fill those puppies up. This is all I will use, ALUM only.

                            I have scooters my son uses and some of the older guys here in town who I did work for on their electric motor bikes and we all agree that high density Alum batteries are far different than an ACID battery.

                            I charge ACID batteries up in one quarter of the time as ALUM.

                            I am in the beginning phases of cycling ALUM battery plates. First use DC only run it down charge it up again later use a little pulse charging slowly after a FEW cycles of charging and discharging ALUM Batteries with DC you might be able to pulse charge it.

                            Well you can pulse charge it all you want and it will just laugh at me if I don't follow the instructions by Mr John Bedini.

                            Now let's clear everything up Matt. I am sorry if you thought I was ignoring you on joules in and joules out. I am not to that stage yet but when I get there you can be sure I will remember your words.

                            Every every day. Everyday for over a year I have had my head down working on this dump and zapping batteries. You are not going to surprise me.

                            A 1700ah battery will not charge using a 1 amp input in this lifetime and I for one want to discharge and charge everyday. Not once a month.

                            I am through trying to do a proof of concept that doesn't pay my electric bill.

                            Like John Bedini is doing using 100's of amps from solar panels charging batteries with a loud amplifier circuits and huge amounts of heat pouring off his heat sinks.

                            I started with a 2ah battery. I went to a 20ah battery then a 100ah battery all ALUM converted, so you are not going to surprise me.

                            I know what this takes.

                            @Matt a $20 walmart charger is a direct current device that digitally stops at 14vdc while it boils your battery or you could buy the roll around.

                            The $20 charger is for a car battery size and yes size matters.

                            Take John Bedini's big battery array, he charges his in 36hrs at a 240 watt input.

                            Proof of more out than in does not impress me so count me out. I know I am getting that but I will not waste my time trying to prove this.

                            Like you said Matt I need to spend my time on the cap charging inverter.

                            If you are charging your golf cart batteries on 1 amp then it must take days to do that unless sulfation is fooling the meters.

                            Trust me for what I am doing and the size of my batteries it takes more intestinal fortitude if you want usable power.

                            This dump is not featured as a free energy or free lunch charger, it is plain and simply an effective way to make batteries live as long as the humans. Also getting nearly twice as much energy out of the same package in the long run.

                            Now It takes nearly twice as much power to charge it and you get it back.

                            This is the point of my message to you Matt. I am here to do that, CHARGE BATTERIES. Nothing more. I am not looking for a 10X to one.

                            I have watched batteries I paid big money for, that died in weeks. NO MORE.

                            No more Matt, no more failed batteries for me and I know what I am doing so the rest of you stay right there and watch my progress as I show those who wish to pulse large batteries to run their homes on.

                            Even John Bedini is going the practical route and that will use up some power in the form of heat expelled, so what. But not nearly as much as other devices.

                            Practical application on a larger scale is far different than a proof of something that works.

                            I will keep you posted as I reach the measuring stage, so far I have only cycled the battery twice on dc and charged it once with pulses.

                            You didn't know where I was at in my process so now you know Matt.

                            I hope to share more out than in like I have before this big battery experiment.

                            We shall see Thanks again Matt and all the group members.

                            mike
                            Last edited by BroMikey; 06-02-2014, 03:46 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Measuring?

                              Originally posted by wayne.ct View Post
                              I have been following the discussion since it seems to relate to stuff I am doing. May I ask what you are looking at as your figure of merit? Your battery (batteries?) are now charging up to 13.2 volts? What else are you measuring, if you don't mind sharing?

                              Thanks...
                              Hi Wayne

                              Who said anything about measuring? I am just trying to build a capacitor discharging device that charges large batteries and doesn't burn out Fet's every week.

                              I pulse charge and this takes much longer than Direct Current charging but this method does not produce all of the internal heat and drives the voltage up to 15-16vdc.

                              Some folks feel that large current pulses are the same as large currents that are steady on. This is a misconception.

                              The purpose of my cap dump circuit discussion is to show a hands on illustration of a working and practical unit. Also an industrial grade.

                              The pulse charging if done right will charge without heat and you can protect your investment this way. I monitor my batteries all through my pulse charging adjustments and they are stone cold.

                              I also have a 200amp dc automotive battery charger that can charge these big batteries in a few hours. They will heat up and this is not good.

                              So the main purpose of pulse charging is to get the full amp hour rating every time it is charged and more.

                              Now at some point down the road as we use our pulse chargers our batteries will charge themselves a little if we wait enough hour using a tiny amount of current but I am the only one I know who talks like that.

                              Know one is knowing or proving that they can get more power out than they put in. That is the reason for measuring and measuring all of the time.

                              This is a tool, that's what it is and a very good one. This tool can give back extra energy from batteries because extra energy was placed there.

                              All batteries will lose fluid over time and need to be refilled or topped off.

                              My measurements go like this. I input 200-300 watts and waste 50 watts through a resistor to charge caps. Then a slight bit of heat loss from the fets.

                              So with this in mind the input is greater than what the battery gets. Yet after a while pulse charging does get easier and this is where the fun begins.

                              Mike
                              Last edited by BroMikey; 06-04-2014, 05:08 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Sounds like you got it all covered, sorry to bother.

                                Matt

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