William F. Skinner - 1939 Gravity Power

[gotoluc]

It makes good sense to give the top drive a "nudge" only at the 180* point.
I can see that if the four assemblies were driven by a crankshaft with four 90* cranks, the only effort needed from the input motor would be to overcome the minimal bearing friction, as the 180* "lifting" moments would be

Regards,

Dave.

Hello Dave,

glad you see the benefits if the top drive had another unit 180* out of phase.

I see you have the means to monitor current to your prime mover. I also do this and and have been using it to see if gravity is in fact being added to the system.

My video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvy7zuWKaF4

Can you note the current under no load on your output shaft and then load it and note if there is a change.

Thank you for your time

Luc

[purelyprimitives]

Its been stated that the key to Mr. Skinner's device is the falling and raising of the weights during rotation.

Here's a challenge: Can anyone show conclusively that this is actually happening at 60 RPM? If it isn't, then these mechanisms are just rotating on their respective horizontal planes and are simple flywheels and there's no 'secret' here.

Best regards,
Charlie

[Michael John Nunnerley]

I think this was discussed earlier and it was agreed that this would be a simple friction clutch so not to overload the motor from startup. You can see his hand on the actuator lever just after this.

Sorry NO, that is not the case

Regards

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

@purelyprimatives

I think I have done that, post 284, or you need more explination? If your not an engineer then I think you need to try and understand what happens if you move a reference point, there are plenty of place on the internet to learn about this.

The example I have given is just for that, what happens when you move the gravity reference point, I think it is very clear.

Find yourself a bicycle wheel and place it horizontal suspended from a string from the ceiling by the center axis only (thats where the bearing is if you did not know). Now put on the rim a channel that a ball bearing can run in on the full circumference of the wheel (the upper part). Put the ball bearing in the channel and wobble the wheel slowly in a uniform fashion (thats like a disc dropped on the table and does a wobble until it stops flat on the table). Also look up centripetal and centrifugal forces and learn what they are, this will give you another aspect to the DUT, with this you may understand why it self regulates for torque, which I am sure is going to come up in the future.

regards

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Dave, a man under my own heart

The Incredible Genius Of Eric Laithwaite

regards

Mike

[ZeroMassInertia]

Mike Prof. Laithwaite has several videos on Youtube enjoy.
eric laithwaite - Ask.com YouTube Search

[Cisco]

Dave's video

I've just uploaded a video which I do hope will clarify things.
After all, a picture is worth a thousand words
This is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw3l...ature=youtu.be

And a video is worth more than a thousand pictures when it puts them all in motion. Thank you immensely, Dave, for your highly instructive model, and your observation of the significant difference between the unloaded "flywheel" mode and the loaded mode that produces increased torque.

As for Charlie's show-stopping concern, any machine can be stopped by overloading it. After all, with relatively little brake pressure, I can overpower my car engine resulting in a car-stopper. But I wouldn't then conclude that the engine is no good or underpowered.
What's important is the appropriate match between the machine and its load (or the car speed and its gear selection for optimum rpm so that the engine does not labor unduly).
What's different about this machine is that--unlike the car where the brakes and engine oppose one another--the load and the machine matched to synchronous parameters will actually reinforce one another! If this anomaly can be further verified through replication, it's a game-changer.

Now Dave, could you please connect a small generator such as a bicycle wheel generator to your output shaft and measure the output?

[goldpro]

I have posted this on OU.com as well, it seems that nobody is sure how the top drive is made. Maybe I don't either but, I think this is as close as you can get, and you need to look hard at the videos, it's not easy to see, but when you know possibilities of how it can be done, just maybe you can see what I have drawn.

This is just the start, part A the top power input.

regards

Mike

Mike,
From how you wrote about this top drive over on the other forum I think it might work, maybe, but consider these points***

***You mention that you have to give the top weight a push to get the mechanism to "engage" and start moving the lever rods otherwise it just spins the large round plate and the 3 bearings round and round with no effect on the lever rods. how would the other 3 top weights be kept synchronized so they are all in step with each other?

***I'm sure the lever Mr. Skinner grabs when he first walks over to the machine at the start of the video is the control for the flat belt shifting fork that you can see half way up the lever in the ebay picture. This would shift the vertical flat belt side to side on the fast and loose pulley system way up at the top.
This would act as a clutch of sorts to gradually start the machine.

At 10 seconds into the video keep your eye on the vertical flat belt as it goes around the pulley on the same shaft as the pulley that's driven by the cotton thread. When Skinner pulls the lever back you can actually see the flat belt shift over on that pulley. That pulley is wider than the belt so the belt can move sideways on it. The flat belt moves towards skinner/away from the machine frame.

Later, when he takes the cotton thread off.. note the belt is back in the position on the pulley that is closest to the machine frame (film must have been edited) . This means that up top, the belt is on the "fast" pulley (the one connected to the shaft rather than to the "loose" one that isn't connected and just spins). That may be why when he moves the top weight with his hand that flat belt pulley (the one in front of his forehead) turns.

*** I think the whole linkage from the top weight, up through the lever rods, through whatever gearing or mechanism is up top, then through the flat belt and down to that pulley is locked together (apart from the "clutch").

Aaron says not necessarily so, as the lever rod's bottom tip moves when he moves the weight with his hand and this movement would transfer back downstream all the way to the pulley. This may be so, but only if we use his newer idea of the bicycle wheel type ellipse maker I think. If the upper mechanism is like the way you have drawn it with 3 places where there is a bearing allowing a very loose connection of the large disk, cam, and lever rod top then I don't think the motion of the lever rod tip would transfer all the way back to the pulley. Too many pivots and bars to absorb the motion.

Also, as I already mentioned, I don't think the lever rod tip swings or ellipses at all while he moves the weight with his hand. If it does move it may only be 1/4" or so....not enough to make that pulley turn as much as it does or make the other top weights move. I think the lever rod tip and translation plate are locked together and that the twisting motion of the weight is what "turns" or "funnels" the lever rod motion all the way back to the flat belt pulley. skinner's machine might simply have enough mechanical advantage built into it to move the translation plates/top weights in a circle and it will still work fine.

***at 19 seconds I don't think skinner touches the top weight bar with his forearm like I think you mentioned to Luc. his arm looks too far way to me.


***What do you think is the purpose of the lever skinner grabs with his hand ?

Also as Aaron has pointed out all this is not really important as the main principle can be produced in lots of different ways one of which Dave has done.

I might never know how skinner built his but I too would like to figure it out as much as possible as it is a valuable teaching tool.

***also consider in the ebay pic up in the top section I can "see" what may be 6 or 7 vertical "shafts" whose ends are in pillow block bearings that may have gears on them to transfer the top drive from the large 5 spoke flat belt pulley to the lever rods.

As for watching the video to see what is happening up at the top...I've given up...I can see anything I want to see up there....too uncertain of what is really going on there.

Luc: maybe if you move the top of your lower weight shaft pillow block bearing farther away from the square tubing it will work better. that will lean the weight over farther giving more of an incline for the bottom weight to swing around on. In other words put a spacer block between the bearing and the tubing and connect them back together with 8" long bolts or so.
I don't know what Aaron means when he says it's not at the correct right angle. the angle looks ok to me...it already is at 90*...just not out far enough. ??

I hope all this banging away on the keyboard has been helpful.
As always I may be completely wrong.
best to build things... back to the meccano.
Tom

[h2ocommuter]

Ok there are no reversals in this machine. The weights are only moving down an incline which so happens to be in a circle. All that is happening is this circle controls that % of incline. The angle of the Drive weight Lever controls the velocity of the RPM.

I am building a 5 weight unit about 2' tall.

I will upload videos analysis and pictures.

[purelyprimitives]

Sorry NO, that is not the case

Regards

Mike

Please refer to Tom (goldpro)'s response #293.

If you still disagree please explain how Tom is wrong.

Thanks,
Charlie

[purelyprimitives]

@purelyprimatives

I think I have done that, post 284, or you need more explination? If your not an engineer then I think you need to try and understand what happens if you move a reference point, there are plenty of place on the internet to learn about this.

I've been an engineer for over 30 years.

Your drawing (I assume) depicts a centrally fixed tilting ellipse with a ball rolling around it. The ellipse tilts and the ball 'rolls downhill' seeking the lowest point. As the ellipse is continually tilted in a circle, the ball follows the ever changing angle of the ramp. Is that correct?

But in your drawing, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the ellipse does not rotate but only tilts. If so, where in Mr. Skinner's machine is this same fixed tilting plate? One that is not rotating but only tilts.

From what I see, the weights are rotating around a rotating axle which is not the same frame of reference as your drawing. Do you agree?

Charlie

PS I look forward to any video from anyone showing the weights rising and falling. Should be simple right?

[purelyprimitives]

As for Charlie's show-stopping concern, any machine can be stopped by overloading it. After all, with relatively little brake pressure, I can overpower my car engine resulting in a car-stopper. But I wouldn't then conclude that the engine is no good or underpowered.

My point was more along the lines of it falling out of sync. A car engine won't fall out of sync but this device will.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

I think this was discussed earlier and it was agreed that this would be a simple friction clutch so not to overload the motor from startup. You can see his hand on the actuator lever just after this.

That might well be a slipping clutch, that would make sense.

My point is there is a 1/8 hp motor at fairly high rpm it seems, it is then driving a geared transition box to a flat belt drive, OK there is probably a slipping clutch, this would make sense, but I am thinking that it was more to get the drive in sync with those top levers (which are mainly moved by the center weights). Once in sync the drive applies a little push every 180 degrees and nothing more. If it was driving directly those levers, I don't think that thin thread would take it, do you?

To get the machine running I think for sure he had to spin around at least one of the center weights so as it would mesh with the top of the lever and drive.

The whole point is the output does not affect the input, if it did then that cord would snap, that is very clear.

regards

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

I've been an engineer for over 30 years.

Your drawing (I assume) depicts a centrally fixed tilting ellipse with a ball rolling around it. The ellipse tilts and the ball 'rolls downhill' seeking the lowest point. As the ellipse is continually tilted in a circle, the ball follows the ever changing angle of the ramp. Is that correct?

It is not an ellipse, it is a circle which is a wheel, which is not turning, only a circumference change of reference to the center axis.

But in your drawing, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the ellipse does not rotate but only tilts. If so, where in Mr. Skinner's machine is this same fixed tilting plate? One that is not rotating but only tilts.

Again it is not an ellipse in that reference drawing, also the bottom of the bottomshaft is not really an ellipse, an ellipse is about as close as we can get as an explination, in reality it is 3 dimentional, it is forever changing in 3 planes. The top of that bottom weight is forever wanting to fall over, that is why it is so high (long).

From what I see, the weights are rotating around a rotating axle which is not the same frame of reference as your drawing. Do you agree?

Explain better please, as I do not know what you are talking about!

Charlie

PS I look forward to any video from anyone showing the weights rising and falling. Should be simple right?

Regards

Mike

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Seems someone has looked up what a flywheel is and it's properties, maybe looking up also counter weights on cams might be a good idea too

Does anyone know which is applicable to this system of Skinner? maybe neither?

regards

Mike