William F. Skinner - 1939 Gravity Power

[shylo]

Hi Aron, I see what your saying in your video, but that is not how it works.IMHO
In Magnoro animation I clearly see the horizontal plate that the upper rod is connected to rotating , the plate I believe is connected to a pulley.( which is connected to the other 3 pulleys by a belt that is driven by a single pulley)
The plate's rotation is circular ,It has to be , if I connect a 10 in. long plate to a 3 in.pulley ,it will create a perfect circle at the 20 in. diameter.
It looks like in the Skinner device the plate is about 6 in. just a guess, but that plate is definately traveling in a circular motion.
Why do you think the driving lever is going back and forth? That would do just as you say , but look closely , it's a plate connected to a pulley.
Not trying to be rude ,just what I see.
artv

[MagnaMoRo]

Hi Aron, I see what your saying in your video, but that is not how it works.IMHO
In MagnaMoRo's animation I clearly see the horizontal plate that the upper rod is connected to rotating , the plate I believe is connected to a pulley.( which is connected to the other 3 pulleys by a belt that is driven by a single pulley)
The plate's rotation is circular ,It has to be , if I connect a 10 in. long plate to a 3 in.pulley ,it will create a perfect circle at the 20 in. diameter.
It looks like in the Skinner device the plate is about 6 in. just a guess, but that plate is definately traveling in a circular motion.
Why do you think the driving lever is going back and forth? That would do just as you say , but look closely , it's a plate connected to a pulley.
Not trying to be rude ,just what I see.
artv

Exactly! This is only a 20-frame-repeating-clip, synchronizing with the rotation of the bars, so the white patch on the CHAIN (not belt) driving the GEARS (not pulley) only appears to come around each cycle but it actually takes longer. The big thing on top is a transmission with a centered shaft coming down having maybe 4 gears (could also be accomplished with only 2 gears with longer chains going to the gears above the plates at each diagonally divided half).

It has to be gears and chains (not belts and pulleys), to keep the 4 bars in orbital synchronicity.

[shylo]

Hi MagnaMoRo, I agree it more than likely is sprockets and chains, to keep the timing in sync.
Thanks for doing the animation, this was the only area I wasn't sure about.
artv

[BroMikey]

That is a highly complex design.

Since it self runs I would guess whats going on in the
upper section that represents a much smaller mass drives the
lower.

The upper has pulley's and cables connected to 3 sinc wobbling
legs while the lower has 10 singing and wobbling weights in
sinc to one another.

It took the mans entire lifetime to perfect.

[Aaron]

elliptical oribt

All mechanisms to synchronize them all at the input are at the top and OUT OF SIGHT IN THE ANIMATED GIF!

The rotating bar at the end of the main crossbar that spins the input lever in a circle WHILE the axis of that little rotating bar goes back and forth creates an elliptical orbit. All claims contrary is misinformation and is false at face value.

It is not a matter of opinion.

[BroMikey]

Okay just for the sake of getting everything on the table in a
manner that does not upset the new guys, are you saying
that the animation is true? Or is it a collection of pictures
that do not reflect the true nature of the actual device?

The animation looks really cool and it would be wonderful
if we had one that really did reflect the actual device. It
took some effort to make the Gif and the work is excellent.

I am not sure what is being said here. Please let me know
if this animation meets the criteria set forth in the invention.

I am not sure one way or another.

I heard what the producer of the GIF said so please
rephrase when you can one way or another.

Pictures can be illusions.

Mikey

[MagnaMoRo]

All mechanisms to synchronize them all at the input are at the top and OUT OF SIGHT IN THE ANIMATED GIF!

The rotating bar at the end of the main crossbar that spins the input lever in a circle WHILE the axis of that little rotating bar goes back and forth creates an elliptical orbit. All claims contrary is misinformation and is false at face value.

It is not a matter of opinion.

The .gif IS the real deal!

Steps I used to create it:

• Download this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxIRaJlTD4Y
  [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxIRaJlTD4Y[/VIDEO]

• Load it into VLC Player

• Set play back in full screen in super Slow Motion (about 1 frame per sec or so)

• Find some start and stop frames where the top bars on the machine look about parallel and go to the fist frame.

• Use TinyGrab to select the screen aria desired. (I used reference point in the image on the ceiling and on the floor)

• Use the Pause and Play button to advance each frame and keep grabbing the needed frames till just before the bars are parallel again.

• Load each consecutive Screen Grab into GIMP, each into a new layer

• position each layered image as good as possible and export to a .gif.

Then just post in here and let you put it down! No problem.

Do you have better motion camera images? I'll make a .gif of those too.

I'm a little surprised, though not upset, with your insistence. But also, I must say that there doesn't seem to be enough room at the top of the machine for all of mechanisms necessary to do all that you insist. If those required mechanisms are there (and I won't insist they aren't there) we should see a little more movement. Also, 3 of the top bars are visible enough to make out what is going on.

I am at piece with my accomplishment in the .gif, and with nothing to gain by any false claim or insistence.
MagnaMoRo

[BroMikey]

I don't know if this guy is right. Is this correct?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw3lpFvuzps

[MagnaMoRo]

I don't know if this guy is right. Is this correct?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw3lpFvuzps

This guys path is linear. And, as you can see, it doesn't self start. I doubt William would go through all the effort for something he would have to push to get it going. So, I think we can rule out the linear path.

That leaves only Circular and Elliptical.

To achieve an elliptical orbit is even more complicated mechanically than the linear or the circular. The shaft attachment would still have to slide up and down the shaft (like in the above video) as the orbit lengthens and shortens twice per orbit. Extra friction!

I don't want to force my opinion on anyone here, but I only see circular activity working here.

So, for me, the only issue left is whether the machine produces real "torque amplification" (energy increases harnessed from gravity) or is simply an elaborate flywheel.

MagnaMoRo

[Aaron]

sequence of events

I don't know if this guy is right. Is this correct?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw3lpFvuzps

My response to his video:

"David, this is the best small scale demo that I have seen. You mention something about elliptical but I did not understand how that came into play with your model. You are showing that the input mechanism simply oscillates back and forth, but I believe you a missing one of the most important pieces, which is the fact that the input lever on Skinner's machine is actually rotated in an elliptical orbit and not a circular one.

Please see this: https://youtu.be/JolNozy8UEY?t=34m49s it is also visible in the original video if you look at it carefully. You will see the top of the input level is actually rotating in a circular orbit WHILE the cross arm rocks it back and forth. With the input lever moving the mechanism in an elliptical orbit, the top of the lower weight is the highest at the center falls to a bit of a lower level at the edges of the ellipse."

He might be seeing the sequence of events in the wrong order - he says the upper weight chases the lower weight but it is the upper weight, which actually leads the lower weight. Input lever kicks the translation coupler, which kicks around the upper weight and the top of the shaft of the lower weight is then kicked around - in that exact sequence.

[Aaron]

elliptical orbit

This guys path is linear. And, as you can see, it doesn't self start. I doubt William would go through all the effort for something he would have to push to get it going. So, I think we can rule out the linear path.

That leaves only Circular and Elliptical.

To achieve an elliptical orbit is even more complicated mechanically than the linear or the circular. The shaft attachment would still have to slide up and down the shaft (like in the above video) as the orbit lengthens and shortens twice per orbit. Extra friction!

I don't want to force my opinion on anyone here, but I only see circular activity working here.

So, for me, the only issue left is whether the machine produces real "torque amplification" (energy increases harnessed from gravity) or is simply an elaborate flywheel.

MagnaMoRo

No - the general linear back and forth movement IS what kicks the upper weight around so that the translation coupler spins around and around.

https://youtu.be/JolNozy8UEY?t=23m56s

But the top of the input lever is moved in an elliptical orbit - common sense looking at the original video.

What is the point of you educating us on how to make an animated gif? Did you see anyone say that anything was faked?

Obviously it came from the original video and is real - it is your perception of what is in that gif that is incorrect - not that the image is faked. Very suspicious trying to make a point about something that was never argued.

The mechanism from the input pulley system is above the field of view in the animated gif and is NOT what the little white rotating flash is - and that is actually more apparent at the rear one showing the entire rotation of the small piece that the shaft is connected to.

It is a little rotating bar at the end of the crossbar that is rotating on it's own circular orbit while it goes back and forth creating the elliptical pattern EXACTLY like I showed you in the last video segment I linked to.

Because of Skinner's family's help, I have had more information on this machine than anyone else since Skinner himself and I'm supposed to take this nonsense about the input shaft being rotated in a simple circular orbit in any serious way? It is misinformation - I'm not claiming it's intentional, but it is misinformation.

You are also unaware of the basic principles of the mechanics of these non-equilibrium systems whereas a circular orbit forces symmetry and and you will never get the gains possible because it requires an elliptical orbit to give an impulse 2 times on each cycle. It's a massive power increase that a circular orbit is incapable of delivering. And the upper weight kicking around is the reactive component that does not buck against the input, but instead it's force is assisting forward motion - it is a mechanical equivelant to having a generator free of back emf and the recovery pushes it forward. Except they happen simultaneously in the Skinner machine.

The very claim of circular rotation show an intrinsic contradiction to the very principles applied in this machine to do what is claimed.... the disconnects, non reflection, etc... it is not only visually verifiable false from the original video, it is false in principles and bastardizes the rest of the system in every sense. The changing reference frame is required and the circular orbit sabotages this.

[Aaron]

you need to understand the operating principles

To achieve an elliptical orbit is even more complicated mechanically than the linear or the circular. The shaft attachment would still have to slide up and down the shaft (like in the above video) as the orbit lengthens and shortens twice per orbit. Extra friction!

I don't want to force my opinion on anyone here, but I only see circular activity working here.

So, for me, the only issue left is whether the machine produces real "torque amplification" (energy increases harnessed from gravity) or is simply an elaborate flywheel.

MagnaMoRo

Extra friction is in your mind eliminates the possibility that there would be a mechanism to create an elliptical orbit? lol

It's right there in front of everyone's face in the original video - it is not hiding!

Any mention of flywheel is a further example of not even understanding anything about this machine and is not to be taken seriously.

A flywheel's purpose is to store momentum and it needs to be symmetrically distributed around it's axis to accomplish this in the most efficient way. Take a flywheel from your engine and move the axis 1/2 inch away from center and lets see how long it spins and how long the machine stays in one piece. With Skinner's machine, having the weight distributed asymmetrically all in one side of the axis, it is the antithesis to a flywheel.

The lower weight carries some momentum but it is not for acting as a flywheel, but an object with momentum that is accelerated to the edges on twice on each cycle as it "falls" to each end of the ellipse. It is impulse technology to create a huge power gain by compressing that energy into a short period of time twice per cycle- and since there is gravitational potential converted to work in the system, we also get an energy gain - not just a power gain.

[Aaron]

input lever moves independently of the oscillating cross bar

Anyone can do a higher quality version of this and while looking at it frame by frame (looked clearer in my editor), it is also completely obvious the upper part of the input lever/shaft moves independently of the oscillating crossbar.

When the crossbar flings back in the opposite direction, the little "swing arm" that the lever is attached to accelerates past where the crossbar is. It is clearly visible in the original video showing that it moves independently of the crossbar.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA9wHJsFzm4[/VIDEO]

In two frames, the crossbar stays in the exact same position but the upper part of the shaft moves showing it is moving not only faster but independently of the crossbar just as I said. If the upper part of the shaft is fixed to the crossbar and simply traces a crescent shape (not linear) every frame would show the movement of both in synchronicity with each other but they are not.

VIDEO EDIT: I said the original camera may not have had enough frames per second to capture the crossbar but that's irrelevant. For the frames per second that the camera was capable of, it did capture the faster moving input lever which proves the point even more that the crossbar is actually moving slower than the lever.

[BroMikey]

My response to his video:

"David, this is the best small scale demo that I have seen. You mention something about elliptical but I did not understand how that came into play with your model. You are showing that the input mechanism simply oscillates back and forth, but I believe you a missing one of the most important pieces, which is the fact that the input lever on Skinner's machine is actually rotated in an elliptical orbit and not a circular one.

Please see this: https://youtu.be/JolNozy8UEY?t=34m49s

Input lever kicks the translation coupler, which kicks around the upper weight and the top of the shaft of the lower weight is then kicked around - in that exact sequence.

Thanks Aaron

I just love it when you kick into overdrive I learn so much.

I'll bet MoRo never thought of it like that huh?

trying to make a point about something that was never argued.


Because of Skinner's family's help, I have had more information on this machine ...............................



And the upper weight kicking around is the reactive component that does not buck against the input, but instead it's force is assisting forward motion - it is a mechanical equivelant to having a generator free of back emf


it is false in principles and bastardizes the rest of the system in every sense.

[Aaron]

why elliptical is needed

I know this thread is about Skinner and I don't want to derail, but are you saying the John device is not a mechanical amplifier, or its just not using the same concept as the Skinner device?

It kinda looks to me like the John device is just a little cog in a more complicated device like what Skinner using. I'm probably wrong, but looks like Skinner is using multiple off balanced parts to achieve his goal. Where as the John device is just one off balanced part.

The John device is simply a very symmetrical equilibrium mechanism that rotates the lower weight's shaft in a perfect circle - and in the videos, the more weights distributed out from the shaft to spread it around it's circumference moves it even more towards equilibrium, which moves in the direction of what a flywheel is supposed to do. It accomplishes what some people in this thread think the Skinner machine is doing, but they're very different.

When it is locked in a circular orbit, there is no gravitational advantage because the lower weight is at a fixed height and it defeats the whole purpose of trying to convert gravitational potential to real mechanical work. In a circular orbit, since there is no change in height of the lower weight, there is no dipole or potential difference change in relationship to the lower weight's position at any point of the orbit. That prevents gravitational potential from entering the system to push on the weight from a higher level to a lower level - thereby doing real work that is additive to our own input. That can only happen with an elliptical orbit.

I explained it many times here, but anyone can try it out.

Take a pencil and put the point on your desk on a paper or something. Make sure the tip stays at the same place. How grab the eraser and move it around in a perfect circle - or close enough to observe the obvious, which is the fact that the eraser does not change height.

Now, rotate the eraser in an elliptical orbit - make it a long narrow ellipse to exaggerate the effect to make it easier to see. The more narrow and elongated the ellipse, the more acute the angle between the paper and pencil becomes and at the far ends of the ellipse, the eraser is at the lowest height. Bring the eraser to the narrow part of the ellipse by the "center" and the eraser is at the highest point and the angle between the paper and eraser is the most obtuse.

In the Skinner machine, when the lower weight's shaft (top of shaft) is at the center (between the far elongated points of the ellipse), it is at the highest point and therefore, the lower weight is the highest and most top heavy. There is more gravitational potential available to it at that position than at any other position. Not only is the entire mechanism snapping that shaft towards the far point of the ellipse, but that is where the most gravitational potential is assisting this lower weight as it falls towards the far end of the ellipse.

We have additive forces here that is more than our own input. We have the upper weight's momentum, which is a reactive force to the input lever that doesn't counter the input motion, but assists it in its elliptical orbit. We have long leverage from the long input lever's length - another mechanical advantage. The momentum of the upper weight does most of the work and the input lever's energy requirements are only to make up for the loss. Then we have some momentum from the lower weight and then the gravitational input that pushes on it to the far edges of the ellipse - plus the acceleration of the lower weight around the edges of the ellipse.

With all of that, there is way more than enough to push that lower weight from its low point at the edge of the ellipse up to center point where it is at the highest with a lot of energy to spare.

Whenever the lower shaft moves, the upper weight will ALWAYS FALL to the inside of the incline. And every time the machine regauges itself (lower weight moving from low point to high point by moving from ellipse end to the center) that re-establishes the dipole to increase the amount of gravitational potential energy (M*G*H) available to do more work.

All of that is completely taken away by rotating the lower shaft in a circular orbit where it is at a fixed height. Gravity cannot do anything since there is no change in height, there is no regauging at any point in the process, etc... in a circular orbit, it is a completely closed system - closed off to gravitational potential energy, which defeats the entire aim of turning gravity into work.







Anyone can