The John Device Force Redirector

[zapzap]

Overunity?

The Impossible Video - YouTube

Here is the patent material filed. Note, the filing date is about 2.5 months ago: http://www.thejohndevice.com/TheJohnDeviceBook.pdf

Here is a recent update: "The World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) published the first John Device related patent on May 15, 2014. You can look up the patent directly on their site (WIPO - World Intellectual Property Organization) using the Title: The John Device. Alternately, you can simply download "The John Device" book (a .pdf file), which has the entire patent as a section in it...

Website: The John Device Home

A bit more food for thought:

"After SFTH Analysis, the 100W generator currently being used will need 400+ lbs of weight, so a 50W generator from the same company has been ordered (remember - from central Mongolia). The plywood and 2x4s and the layout of the system weren't designed for those 400+ lb weights. The larger weights are slowly destroying the frame (and the operator/inventor) because of the poor construction and implementation - not system conceptual issues. As you would expect when you understand The John Device technology, however, the system gets easier and easier to rotate the MORE mass is added."

[zapzap]

5 Watts input moves 125 lbs from dead stop. Self-loop?

FROM THE BLOG A YEAR AGO:

Watch 125 lbs rotate at 45 RPM in a 4 ft. diameter, starting from Dead Stop, and never using more than 5 (five) Watts of input power and the force of Gravity.

The John Device is the only system or device on Earth that can accomplish that feat.
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He had tested it with up to 300 lbs. or more. Recently he has ordered a 50 Watt generator to attempt a self-loop.

[velacreations]

interesting device, anyone make/test one?

[zapzap]

Maybe an old tech version okay for some/many?

From the inventor, dated May 20, 2014 (source: Facebook):

...But don't worry if you think I'm giving all my secrets away, as this is still all this old tech. Wait until you see the good stuff next year. - I could do lots more and faster, but one thing I've learned (other than how everything in the Universe works, that is) is that Man is in NO rush to solve any problems related to energy or the environment. I actually debate even filing new patent stuff all the time because... well... figure it out.

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For some, perhaps many, even a primitive, cheap, simple, operational 50 - 100 watt version would be a godsend. I recall reading somewhere that the inventor admits that during the pre-patent era (time wise), some of the pictured information was not 100% accurate. I think he mentioned it was on the top assembly. It should have actually been different than pictured.

What is happening at the W. Skinner page is fantastic too!

[zapzap]

Part of the secret, special gears?

From the "The John Device" web page:

The original GV-1 concept, which is single-sided, proved quite functional, and with the exclusively designed and exquisitely hand crafted hypocycloid top gear, was able to prove the initial Proof Of Concept (POC), facilitating further research and development into particular angles and loads placed on the torque shaft.

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Interestingly, yesterday (June 1, 2014) on the William F. Skinner page Rosehillworks quoted Aaron: "Where I want to go with it as time permits is to have a Scotch Yoke type assembly like in a Bourke Engine but the input is the shaft off centered and the output is the back and forth action moving levers."

Rosehillworks' comment:
Perhaps a hypocycloidal gear would be appropriate in this mechanism.

Perhaps indeed?

[Michael John Nunnerley]

From the "The John Device" web page:

The original GV-1 concept, which is single-sided, proved quite functional, and with the exclusively designed and exquisitely hand crafted hypocycloid top gear, was able to prove the initial Proof Of Concept (POC), facilitating further research and development into particular angles and loads placed on the torque shaft.

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Interestingly, yesterday (June 1, 2014) on the William F. Skinner page Rosehillworks quoted Aaron: "Where I want to go with it as time permits is to have a Scotch Yoke type assembly like in a Bourke Engine but the input is the shaft off centered and the output is the back and forth action moving levers."

Rosehillworks' comment:
Perhaps a hypocycloidal gear would be appropriate in this mechanism.

Perhaps indeed?

I think this guy is trying to invent what is already invented, if this is the case he is wasting his money on a patent, I would say 100%

regards

Mike

[zapzap]

Interesting possibility...

Of course what you wrote is a possibility.

Off The John Device Facebook page: "The good news for you - in reading 150,000 or so patents in the last few months, I've got a freebie for you."

Seems like he attempted to research the matter? Perhaps you can recall where you saw a previous similar embodiment manifested?

Frankly, one of the reasons I'm interested in this concept is because of the apparent success he had even with the seemingly low-tech Proof of Concept. Perhaps the inventor at some point might be willing to share the necessary details so that individuals of limited means in unfortunate circumstances can replicate primitive copies to run small water pumps or whatnot.

If ANYONE has clues or information on what would make a primitive NONCOMMERCIAL version function, I suspect there are many out there that would be all ears.

Thank you for your input, looking forward to more.

[Turion]

Disclosure

zap zap,
Just watch his YouTube videos. He SHOWS the entire device construction and explains at some point that it is made out of two inexpensive chair rollers put together. You can probably replicate what he has here for under $50 plus whatever you want to use for weights. This video in particular shows the entire mechanism at the top of his device. If you take the time to watch you will KNOW how to build a replication.
The John Device, Patent Pending - Video 2 - Moving Mass and Bending Perception - YouTube

[Peter Lindemann]

Direct Relationship.....

zap zap,
Just watch his YouTube videos. He SHOWS the entire device construction and explains at some point that it is made out of two inexpensive chair rollers put together. You can probably replicate what he has here for under $50 plus whatever you want to use for weights. This video in particular shows the entire mechanism at the top of his device. If you take the time to watch you will KNOW how to build a replication.
The John Device, Patent Pending - Video 2 - Moving Mass and Bending Perception - YouTube

Thanks Turion,

This is a great film to watch to understand the John Device. What it shows, even though he doesn't "show it", is that there is a DIRECT RELATIONSHIP between the rotating weights and the drive motor. In other words, IF he stopped the weights from rotating, the motor would also stop and draw maximum current under stall conditions.

This is what makes the John Device different than the Skinner device discussed in the other thread. In Skinner's system, stopping the large rotating weights at the bottom does NOT load the drive motor at all. Skinner's output system has TWO LAYERS of disconnect from the input, leaving all of the energy from the "falling weights" at the bottom available to drive the load.

The John Device can't power a real load without loading the motor proportionally. That makes it an elaborate flywheel. He repeatedly shows that every time the system gets up to 60 rpm, it draws the same amount of electrical power.

When Aaron first figured out the Skinner system, at my request, he built a simple drive mechanism like this using an electric motor to produce an orbital motion so the large bottom weight could constantly "fall" and rotate. When we loaded the lower system by slowing down the rotation of the weight mechanism, the power consumed by the electric motor increased.

The results of that experiment are what convinced me of the need for the rest of the complex drive mechanism in Skinner's two step lever-wobble plate drive. With the intermediate weights free to spin the wobble plate independently of both the directly driven levers and the directly loaded weights on the bottom, the SYSTEM attains a complete disconnect between the input and the output.

The John Device only shows that a weight will rotate if you create an orbital motion at the top of a tilted shaft. Alone, this mechanism is not enough to produce an energy gain from gravity. That is my conclusion from observing hours of Aaron's experiments on the Skinner system.

I hope these comments help people evaluate the difference between the John Device and the Skinner device.

Peter

[zapzap]

Not a flywheel. Video 2 NOT the whole story? The inventor says:

From the FAQ page of the web site:

Isn't The John Device just a flywheel?

No. If you watch the video "Ready... Set..." you will see The John Device accelerating a 125.5 lb weight in a 4 ft diameter from Zero to 45 RPM. That speed can then maintain that speed at the usual less than 2 Watts. A flywheel device of the same parameters would require the standard mathematical computations of input power requred, which are actually the output numbers on The John Device.

Flywheels are used by devices such as gasoline engines and as emergency power because of their nature and design features. They don't "magically" create power. In general, they use the excess (or all) of the power of a device to bring them up to speed and continue to rotate them. A perfect example of why they are fundamentally different is that many flywheels are built and used in the vertical plane of rotation, which, in conventional thought, obviously can't use the force of gravity if the desired output is greater than the input.

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From the same page:

...More importantly, this is just my homemade version of GV-1. This is a Gravity only device, and is simply a representation of the idea. The particular design of the hypocycloid gear (one of them, anyway) used on the top allows for additional force. In the videos, I don't use that gear. I use an incorrect one on purpose. The arms are at wrong angles, the shaft is wrong, the whole top gearing is wrong, the mechanism for driving the top can be much different, and on, and on and on... NONE of which is shown in the videos.

You can also read the "Learn More" section, and you will understand that GV-1 technology, while incredibly fascinating because of it's abilities, is only a baby. Almost a joke, really. Other than "getting people over the hump" and attracting World-wide interest, it will almost never be used in industrialized nations. GV-1, however, will always be attractive and interesting for it's pure simplicity and ease of implementation. (which was why I built it in the first place with almost nothing

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Thank you for your inputs gentlemen, we can hope that one of these days the inventor can answer your questions a bit more in detail. Oh, and the emphasis added are mine.

[Turion]

No brainer

So in other words, we have none of the critical information necessary to make the John device a working COP>1 device. Just a basic idea. And on the Skinner device thread most, if not ALL, of the information to build a working model has been disclosed. Guess I know where I will be spending my time.

Dave

[Aaron]

measuring mechanical work

measuring mechanical work
Here is a simple method to calculate the mechanical work done at the output shaft...

Here is an excerpt from one of Peter's original electric motor videos showing how to measure the mechanical work at a shaft. This is exactly how we measure the mechanical work being done with a Bedini SG so we know that when we add that mechanical work to the electrical recovery it is always over 1.0 COP...but you have to add the mechanical work to see the "overunity".

This is also perfect for measuring the work of the Skinner machine like I mentioned in my Skinner video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zox7EnafQmE

Here is a short video I did with details on my wheel. Look at this now, I just realized that I actually machined that wheel specifically to test the Skinner machine. I'm an amateur with the lathe so I just turned down the wheel until the caliper slipped on and that was it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jptEZeAJ_U

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The weight at the bottom on the device that is the subject of this thread is not doing any real work. It is simply only overcoming the bearing resistance to move around. A child can move a merry go round that weighs hundreds of pounds with very little input. The weight is not an indicator of how much work is being done. If you apply the output shaft to an electrical generator, even a simple little bicycle generator that operates off of the wheel moving, I'm sure you will see the truth. The generator will produce LESS electrical work than the input motor takes to run. And in that 2 watt range, the generator is likely to completely stall the motor or will burn it out because of the increased current because of the increased load.

I'm not posting this to discourage the work with that machine but to help. If the inventor listens to what is being shared here, he can actually incorporate a few principles that can let him achieve what he is wanting to achieve.

At the top of this post is the how-to on measuring mechanical work in a very simple way. That leather strap itself is a load and will show how much mechanical work is being done for a certain electrical expenditure at the input motor.

[zapzap]

Patent application link

Here is the link to a pdf file with the actual patent material filed on or about March 14, 2014 at both the U.S. patent office and the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO).

Here: http://www.thejohndevice.com/TheJohnDeviceBook.pdf

[ewizard]

I haven't read this whole thread yet but I often try to simply get an intuitive feel for whether such a device might actually create energy. In the process of doing that it came to mind that the best way to extract energy from this device would be to have a universal joint at the bottom of the shaft which would then attach to a permanent magnet generator at the bottom of the setup. Good PMG's can generate power at very low RPM. Not sure if that idea has been mentioned but I'm tossing it out there since it would seem fairly easy to add to this device. I'm still not sure if it would generate more power than it consumes but I'm leaning toward thinking it might with the help of gravity.

Opinions?

[ewizard]

In digging around a little more on thejohndevice.com blog I see he appears to already be headed in that direction. It seems he is waiting on another PMG from China and is planning to have it self running. Also saw a picture that looks like he is using a universal joint at the bottom.