Interesting Motor

[mbrownn]

Hi guys,

Been a very busy day so just now got back to the computer. Shylo I like what you did with that rotor. Can you post a picture of the commutator end. I am trying to figure out the best way to connect those coils to the commutator. I have some ideas but I would like to see what you have done if you don't mind.

Since I will be getting 3 of the scooter motors to play with I want to wind one of them like you have done shylo and wind one like mbrownn shows in his drawings. Then maybe that will help me understand better how the different kinds of winds might affect the performance. My motors are supposed to be in Saturday so maybe I can get started soon on trying out some of these ideas.

Mbrownn would you like to call your motor the mbrownn motor? That would work for me. Of course if there are other people that have seriously been working on this same idea they might have a better idea what to call it.

Carroll

Try to keep this thread specifically about this motor to avoid confusion

Im not keen on that name, im not egocentric like that. I thought about Assymetric Motor Generator but that's AMG which has been patented I suppose Micks Motor Generator or MMG is a compromise that would work for now, a bit like John Bedini's SSG

What I would do is build the motor as I instructed using magnets as the powered field coils, a simple wound armature, and place recovery brushes to feed a capacitor across the input. With a pony brake measuring power on the motor shaft at different speeds and a load such as a bulb on the electrical side, we can calculate the total output and find the optimum voltage and speed to run it. Then we can compare that with the input. I would expect it to be in excess of 70% efficient which is quite good. Above 80% is very good, above 90% and we will find people are patenting it out from under our feet.

[citfta]

shylo,

If you have any more information or pictures about the rotor you posted a picture of please post that information in my thread about open discussions so we don't cause confusion in this thread. I agree with mbrownn we don't need for this thread to wander off in a lot of other directions like some of them do. But I am interested in learning more about how you connected those coils to the commutator.

Thanks,
Carroll

PS: To mbrownn: I like the MMG. Sounds good to me.

[mbrownn]

shylo,

If you have any more information or pictures about the rotor you posted a picture of please post that information in my thread about open discussions so we don't cause confusion in this thread. I agree with mbrownn we don't need for this thread to wander off in a lot of other directions like some of them do. But I am interested in learning more about how you connected those coils to the commutator.

Thanks,
Carroll

PS: To mbrownn: I like the MMG. Sounds good to me.

Its the simplest winding possible. Starting with the armature in front of you and the output shaft facing you, and an armature slot at the 12 0'clock position. Solder one end of the wire on a commutator segment at the 9 o'clock position. Run the wire to the slot at the 12 o'clock position and wind the wire through that slot, past the armature shaft and return down the slot at the 6 o'clock position. Continue winding loops passing either side of the armature shaft until the slots are full, and then pass the wire to the commutator segment at the 3 o'clock position. Rotate the armature until the next slot is at the 12 0'clock position and repeat. Continue this process until all slots are filled.

On my armature I had double the number of commutator segments as armature slots. This makes the sweep angle smaller. I found that if it had the same number of commutator segments as armature slots the sweep angle is too big.

The reason for connecting the segments at 90 degrees to the coil is so that the wires are close the the armature and do not get thrown out too far when the armature is spinning. Its as simple as that, but I am sure you know removing the old armature windings can be a challenge.

Obviously we are separating the two halves of the armature into two poles, this is why it is best to have an even number of armature slots.

[shylo]

Hi Mbrown, I understand your wind now thanks, So you only energize 2 field coils at a time for rotation, the other 2 for generation in the armature?
Am I even close?
Thanks artv

[mbrownn]

Hi Mbrown, I understand your wind now thanks, So you only energize 2 field coils at a time for rotation, the other 2 for generation in the armature?
Am I even close?
Thanks artv

yes.

Two field coils and the armature are all powered simultaneously and in attraction, If the motor had not had the case slotted the armature would be magnetically held in position with no rotation. Because the case has been slotted, it forces the flux to return through the shoes of the generator coils. As the powered coil on the armature sweeps the generator shoe, the flux also sweeps the shoe. This results in generation in the coil mounted on that shoe. Its all very simple, in fact the generation side of it is absolutely standard.

It is only because the powered field coils have been displaced by 90 degrees and the armature simplified, that BEMF is reduced in these field coils.

[shylo]

The case is slotted, Did you cut right through the case or just put a groove in it? I have an old 16 slot armature(stripped) with 16 comm sections which has 2 stator magnets. I already have it cut in half, I used different armatures in the 2 halves so I could vary each half independently.
Would it be a possible candidate, but I'm sure the armature would need a different wind pattern?
artv

[Hiwater]

Hi Mbrownn. A question, does it matter which way the armature is wound. From the 9

oclock comm bar. Starting on top or starting on the bottom. Would be cw or ccw. All the windings go the same direction I would assume.

[mbrownn]

Hi Mbrownn. A question, does it matter which way the armature is wound. From the 9

oclock comm bar. Starting on top or starting on the bottom. Would be cw or ccw. All the windings go the same direction I would assume.

I don't think it would make a difference as long as you get the polarity right when you connect it up. After half a turn of the armature it will have reversed anyway.

good to see you back

[mbrownn]

The case is slotted, Did you cut right through the case or just put a groove in it? I have an old 16 slot armature(stripped) with 16 comm sections which has 2 stator magnets. I already have it cut in half, I used different armatures in the 2 halves so I could vary each half independently.
Would it be a possible candidate, but I'm sure the armature would need a different wind pattern?
artv

Yes, slotting the case is to break the magnetic circuit, even leaving 10mm at either end allows leakage in the magnetic circuit as shown in the simulation.

I think a standard armature will work when you use magnets as the field coils as no BEMF is created in a magnet, but the magnet will cause generated current in the armature (BEMF) so expect reduced performance. This does not happen with a simple armature.

As I said I haven’t tried it with magnets myself but I am interested in how it performs.

[shylo]

Hi Mbrown, I was testing just half the magnet can since I cut it in half.
I was drawing 3-4 amps ,brushes were sparking bad.
Does a single drive coil of your design push and pull at the same time?
I didn't wind 12 to 6, I wound 4 coils ,1 around each pole face(shoe?) seperated by 90deg.
artv

[mbrownn]

Hi Mbrown, I was testing just half the magnet can since I cut it in half.
I was drawing 3-4 amps ,brushes were sparking bad.
Does a single drive coil of your design push and pull at the same time?
I didn't wind 12 to 6, I wound 4 coils ,1 around each pole face(shoe?) seperated by 90deg.
artv

Now you see the need for the recovery brushes, there is a good amount of energy to be recovered, which can be used to reduce your input by feeding it to a capacitor across the source.

As the setup is in attraction, it is always pull. This keeps the flux within the iron, aiding generation.

[shylo]

Not sure if you already stated, but where are your collector brushes located in relation to your input brushes?
Also what is the location of the drive coil ,in relation to the field winding, when the drive coil is powered?
Thanks artv

[mbrownn]

The collector brushes are 1 segment away from the power brushes, just as the power brush is about to leave the commutator segment, the recovery brush makes contact. If the contact is a little late you will see more arcing, if its early motor performance drops off.

If you are using carbon brushes you can ignore this and the next paragraph, as there is little you can do about it. In this instant, we will in fact have 3 armature coils connected to the power. The power brushes have overcome the inductance and are flowing full current in the coil that is about to disconnect. on the segment after this, the current is already ramping up and possibly at full current. The preceding segment will have discharged its inductive kickback, but will be resisting current flow due to its inductance. We also have transformer interactions taking place between the powered coils and unpowered coils, but our diode on the recovery will prevent any current flowing. Most people don’t analyse what a commutator is doing and there are very complex things happening there.

As I said earlier in the thread, I would be interested in brushes similar to the ones on the photograph because these can be much narrower than carbon ones and so reduce these interactions further. I did make an attempt at making some using razor blades but that is a whole story in itself.

What do you mean by drive coil?

If you mean armature coil it will be similar to what is shown in the simulation.

[shylo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MDa...ature=youtu.be

Hi Mbrown, here is what I have just curious why the amp draw goes down when connecting the transformer and charging cap bank?
artv

[mbrownn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MDa...ature=youtu.be

Hi Mbrown, here is what I have just curious why the amp draw goes down when connecting the transformer and charging cap bank?
artv

Your armature does not appear to be wound anything like mine http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...r-img_0028-jpg Are you winding each armature coil around one T section?

Is the transformer in series with the battery and motor?

How far around the armature does the magnet go, it looks like its about 120 degrees?

Sorry, I cant make out what is happening from your video, so I cant comment without more information.