Interesting Motor

[shylo]

Yes, Yes and it's more like 160 degrees .
Shouldn't charging the caps cause more of a current draw?
artv

[mbrownn]

Yes, Yes and it's more like 160 degrees .
Shouldn't charging the caps cause more of a current draw?
artv

As it is not the motor I have described here i would prefer to discuss it on the Open discussion thread

[shylo]

Hi Mbrownn, In your sim you show the armature coil dead center of the field winding, since you are using attraction only I can`t understand how you would get rotation. Or are you slightly off center.
For some reason my question mark key isn``t working neither is my appostraphe (sp)
artv

[mbrownn]

Hi Mbrownn, In your sim you show the armature coil dead center of the field winding, since you are using attraction only I can`t understand how you would get rotation. Or are you slightly off center.
For some reason my question mark key isn``t working neither is my appostraphe (sp)
artv

Sounds like you got coffee in the keyboard

In truth the armature coil sweeps the generator shoe, rotating towards the powered field coil. When the armature coil switches on, the flux is forced to one side pushing the armature round. Using the image I link to, the armature coil switches on at the 1 o'clock position and remains on as the armature rotates anticlockwise to the 11 o'clock position.
http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...-coilsetup-jpg
As the right hand side of the armature is in attraction with the shoe at the 12 o'clock position, It forces the armature to rotate anticlockwise. The resultant flux sweeps across the shoe at the 12 o'clock position inducing a current in the coil wrapped around it.

This is a generator that creates torque. The powered field coil, or magnet if you chose to use one, exerts no torque on the armature. The flux remains well spaced and moves very little in comparison to what is happening at the generator coil, thus little BEMF is generated in the powered field coil.

Putting it another way, when we switch on our powered field coil, imagine the face of that shoe to be north. This forces the face of the generator to be south. The armature will not turn until we switch on the armature coil. When we do, the part of the armature closest to the powered field coil is south and in attraction. The part furthest away to to the powered field coil is north and is attracted to the south pole we created at the generator pole. As the coil on the armature is not half way between the north and south poles, the attraction will pull it until it is.

[shylo]

So as soon as you load a gen coil or motor coil, How long before the opposite pole shows up?
It's working again.Lol?
If I can exit the magnetic field of the PM before the counter shows up, Your design the counter shows up and you still have to travel ~30% before getting away from the drag (opposite poles attract). That's if I have it right.
artv

[mbrownn]

The moment a current flows in a coil a magnetic field builds up. In the case of my device we already have a magnetic field in the generator coil so the new field caused by the generated current appears to oppose it. Obviously the original field cannot have gone away or the generation would cease.

The question remains, does the new field exist in the same space or does it only weaken the existing field? I have no idea.

The only way you can move a wire through a magnetic field without causing drag from Lenz, is to not allow the current to flow. I don’t make the rules, its just how it is. So the methods of preventing this are to open circuit the coil or oppose the induced current.

I open circuit the coils as they pass the motor field coil, thus preventing BEMF in them. Your method is to make the armature coils so narrow that the BEMF opposes itself within them, making the BEMF self cancelling.

Yes drag and BEMF occur in my armature but only where generation is occurring. As I have explained before, the motoring force also occurs here. In your device you have self cancelling BEMF and motoring, but no generation. Interestingly enough, I believe both methods could be combined and that’s why in interested in what you are doing.

If you use a Stator setup such as mine and an armature such as yours, we could get it to work as long as the only coil on the armature that was energised is the one by the generator coil. You will need to narrow your field coil or magnet to less than 90 degrees. It is possible. Armatures with many segments would work best.

It should work with the stator used in the "interesting motor" thread and with some work we could do it with a "lockridge" type stator. Only building it will prove it.

The sweep angle is set by the width of the generator shoe, and with your armature it will be half of what it is with mine. This means you will need many, maybe 20+ segments on your armature to get the correct sweep angle. The sweep angle (my term) is the angle that the armature rotates under power across the shoe. Your sweep angle will be half of my design because when your armature reaches the middle of the generator shoe, the torque becomes zero. Going past the middle will reverse the torque.

Hope you understand what I am saying

[shylo]

That's what I'm wondering, If the coil I'm putting power into produces a north pole facing a north pole of a pm, it will cause repulsion .When does the south pole show up , when the power is disconnected?
artv

[mbrownn]

You need to set it up in attraction. If our field winding is producing a North and your narrow coil is producing a north, the rest of the armature has to be south, so almost any point on the armature is south. The generator shoe is also south, so the narrow north on the armature will be attracted to it. Replacing the field coil with a magnet would also work the same way.

I know it is normal to set a motor up in repulsion but try attraction and place your armature coil to switch on at the 1 o'clock position and switch off at the 12 o'clock position as per my drawing.

[shylo]

Well I was having no luck with that wind , everything was too hot.
I rewound as per your description, 12 to 6 and 3 to 9, just for testing.
Lower amp draw, less heat and more speed was the result.
I added some collector brushes, but they are at 90deg. to the input brushes.
So the collector is a complete comm section away from the input.(no sipping from the supply) Since it is 16 comm sections.
The output from the collectors , after going through the bridge was 7vdc.
I tested several different magnet arrangements on the open side of the armature, What I found interesting is that the base off of the transformer ,I was using earlier , gave the same result as the other half of the magnet can. Just the magnetic field influence of the half can underneath.
I'm going to fill the rest of the armature up and see what happens.
artv

[mbrownn]

Well I was having no luck with that wind , everything was too hot.
I rewound as per your description, 12 to 6 and 3 to 9, just for testing.
Lower amp draw, less heat and more speed was the result.
I added some collector brushes, but they are at 90deg. to the input brushes.
So the collector is a complete comm section away from the input.(no sipping from the supply) Since it is 16 comm sections.
The output from the collectors , after going through the bridge was 7vdc.
I tested several different magnet arrangements on the open side of the armature, What I found interesting is that the base off of the transformer ,I was using earlier , gave the same result as the other half of the magnet can. Just the magnetic field influence of the half can underneath.
I'm going to fill the rest of the armature up and see what happens.
artv

The problem with collecting power from the second coil UFO style is that it is at 90 degrees and your output there is reduced. Trust me if you collect using the sipsip method and place the capacitor across the source, the sipsip does not occur.

Your magnetic circuit is open, on your second half so the gains will be smaller than if it were closed

[Turion]

Here's a little video about the motor I picked up on eBay. Not sure it will work, as it has 41 sections on the commutator. But it does have four coils and two sets of brushes. I imagine a proper rotor with the right number of commutator sections could be machined that would fit this motor.

eBay Motor - YouTube

Dave

[shylo]

Hi Dave , are you sure it's 41 comm sections, everything I've ever seen is always an equal number?
I think that might be part of the problem, everything is always equal ,offset it so there is an imbalance, but have at least 4 imbalances to work together.
Kinda like Matts' bouncer and the Skinner device.

I'm curious as to why , by putting laminated steel on the other half of the magnet can ,gives the same result as the opposite magnet can does?
Maybe using 2 opposite magnets in the can is a mistake?
When 2 opposite magnets are facing each other, they either repel or attract.
Using 1 magnet can, only influences a pole in the steel.
When you face a N pole of a PM at a piece of steel , what pole is it that is induced into the steel,thats facing the magnet?
Is it south because it's attracted to it?
artv

[bistander]

Hi Dave , are you sure it's 41 comm sections, everything I've ever seen is always an equal number?

It looks like a nice motor. Similar in construction to automotive engine cranking motors or pump motors for truck equipments like snow plows, lift gates, etc. Those types of armatures can be wound several different ways, one of which is 4 pole 2 circuit called wave wound. This wave wound armature needs an odd number of coils and commutator segments.

[mbrownn]

Here's a little video about the motor I picked up on eBay. Not sure it will work, as it has 41 sections on the commutator. But it does have four coils and two sets of brushes. I imagine a proper rotor with the right number of commutator sections could be machined that would fit this motor.

eBay Motor - YouTube

Dave

The case looks perfect, the brushes will need some work and I cant really see the armature clearly. 41 commutator segments means the armature cannot be rewound to make a 2 pole simple armature. whatever you do with it will always be less than ideal. I’m sure that we can get it to work but it will be unbalanced. I’m coming to the conclusion that few, if any, standard lap and wave wound armatures will perform well.

[mbrownn]

I'm curious as to why , by putting laminated steel on the other half of the magnet can ,gives the same result as the opposite magnet can does?
Maybe using 2 opposite magnets in the can is a mistake?
When 2 opposite magnets are facing each other, they either repel or attract.
Using 1 magnet can, only influences a pole in the steel.
When you face a N pole of a PM at a piece of steel , what pole is it that is induced into the steel,thats facing the magnet?
Is it south because it's attracted to it?
artv

If you use a single magnet to pick up iron and compare that with 2 identical magnets stacked together, you find they can only lift the same amount. The only reason they use 2 magnets in a 2 pole motor is because it it easier.

South is induced in the steel.