Basic Free Energy Device

[wantomake]

Batt2

My results were not so good last night.

As soon as I connected dc bulbs (or motor) of any size across the booster and positive, the batt2 decreased quickly in voltage. Even with two in parallel. Quickly I stopped the test.

So for next couple days will be going through all my battery bank to refresh and refill, then do a prolonged pulse charge with the Imhotep fan charger or my digital pulse charger. So this takes time per each battery. Should've bought the deep cell instead of hybrid deep cell/fast start batteries.

Glad others are still at it.

Off topic; Imhotep pulse charged a riding mower battery for (3) months while in Japan, the voltage/amps still good two years later and always connected winter and summer. Was dead battery before pulsing charge. Yes someone checked for me while gone.

I thought batt2 was first in the two batteries in series which has the booster attached to batt2 positive?

Wiring is connected correctly as per all the diagrams and such. Believe me I've tried everything to make this work.

But my boost converter is same as you just linked about. Ive seen this happen with batteries before. Quick charge is quick discharge. Electrolytes and sulfating is the problem.

Still here but busy pulse charging these batteries.
Thanks Matt and I'll recheck my wiring to be sure.

[jettis]

So did you come to any conclusions, theories or facts? I see your schematics but do you have results or did that matter? Just asking..

Matt

Where does one start? With the configurations above I honestly saw nothing special. As I was looking for close to 1:1 energy transfer plus mechanical. Never saw it with those two configurations. FYI I only have the one type of boost converter described in my last post, so I do not know if there is a better boost converter out there to purchase. I tried all sorts of loads, from different DC motors, lights and resistive resistors ranging from low to high ohm values. They all had the same effect when it came to energy transfer. I tried nicads as well... lead acid batteries and capacitors. I do not see anything special about the setup as configured above... My research is telling me, what two others have said on this forum already... There is no gain as tested in the above diagram.

It should also be known that I was not impressed with the systems ability to charge a 2 volt cell vs. the 6 and 12 volt cell batteries. I had first thought in my mind prior to experimenting that the two volt battery would charge very fast but this was not the case. Anyone else have any results to share regarding these particular statements?

Now that said I never researched any form of battery rotation as you and John Bedini describe. However I am not one to rule out improvements or additions to the the system to enhance recovery and or generation. Pulse motors will help somewhat as it should be known by now...also... a resting battery, fresh after being partially charged will still gather and gain in charge even though it is removed from the charging system for some time. So that is free. Cascading is a added bonus as well.

CEMF is what can charge the primary high voltage side bank... I agree with this logic.

Anyways... You asked...

Dave Wing

[Matthew Jones]

Where does one start? With the configurations above I honestly saw nothing special. As I was looking for close to 1:1 energy transfer plus mechanical. Never saw it with those two configurations. FYI I only have the one type of boost converter described in my last post, so I do not know if there is a better boost converter out there to purchase. I tried all sorts of loads, from different DC motors, lights and resistive resistors ranging from low to high ohm values. They all had the same effect when it came to energy transfer. I tried nicads as well... lead acid batteries and capacitors. I do not see anything special about the setup as configured above... My research is telling me what at least two others have said the same on this forum already... There is no gain as tested in the above diagram.

It should also be known that I was not impressed with the systems ability to charge a 2 volt cell vs. the 6 and 12 volt cell batteries. I had first thought in my mind prior to experimenting that the two volt battery would charge very fast but this was not the case. Anyone else have any results to share regarding these particular statements?

Now that said I never researched any form of battery rotation as you and John Bedini describe. However I am not one to rule out improvements or additions to the the system to enhance recovery and or generation. Pulse motors will help somewhat as it should be known by now...also... a resting battery, fresh after being partially charged will still gather and gain in charge even though it is removed from the charging system for some time. So that is free. Cascading is a added bonus as well.

CEMF is what can charge the primary high voltage side bank... I agree with this logic.

Anyways... You asked...

Dave Wing

Ya well it sounds like you were looking for gains in power overall. I am not sure your every going to find that.

Matt

[bobfrench@fastmail.fm]

Hello gang, 06-19-16

I have been busy with a couple of related projects, but with Matt giving so much great input here, I couldn’t resist to try what he suggests. I have messed around with the 3BGS for some time and had mixed result, but nothing that I could consistently reproduce…until now.

[In testing the day before, I had started with lower voltage levels and had amp meters between B2 and the Boost Module and between B3 and B1. This messed with the running of the system causing it to cycle high current/low current, oscillating about every 4 seconds. So I took them out and things ran fine, but I had poor results.]

Using three identical 230 CCA batteries, the oldest of which is two months, a Boost Module, and a tiny Radio Shack motor, I charged the batteries and let them rest over night and come to rest at 12.81V, 12.82V, and 12.83V. I ran some tests before getting the following.

Below I attached a pic of the setup and a drawing to help explain how I measured the effects. I found that from B to C was a 2-3V difference and from C to D was over 14V. So I measured C to E and subtracted A to B (the Primary voltage) which usually rendered numbers between 2.5V and 3.2V. I found that if I set the Boost Module so that the number was near 2.5V the Primaries both went down, and if I set it near 3V they went down, but B2 was higher than B1. So I reasoned that at 3V, the energy went all the way through to charge them, but was too big a drain (because the Boost Module was pulling too much). So I set it around 2.7V and then I got consistently good results…the Primaries held right where they were and B3 charged higher.

I measured every hour and found that if I started with the difference at about 2.75V, it would be up to around 3V alter the hour of running, so I would have to re-adjust it to 2.75V. The following are my measurements:

Current: 80mA
Time 1545 1649 1752 1852
B1 12.51V 12.38V 12.37V 12.37V
B2 12.53V 12.43V 12.42V 12.42V
B3 12.87V 13.62V 13.55V 13.54V
C-E NA 28.03V 27.45V 27.72V
A-B NA 24.80V 24.80V 24.80V
DIF NA 3.23V 2.65V 2.92V
Adjust to NA NA 2.85V None

Time 2013 2053 2152 2252
B1 12.36V 12.36V 12.36V 12.36V
B2 12.41V 12.41V 12.41V 12.41V
B3 13.61V 13.67V 13.87V 14.00V
C-D 27.78V 27.63V 27.90V 27.84V
A-B 24.78V 24.78V 27.77V 24.75V
DIF 3.00V 2.85V 3.13V 3.09V
Adjust to 2.75V 2.73V 2.70V

(I tried adjusting the columns on the above, but they just all went back together. Sorry. I'm attaching a pic of them below.)

Thank you, Matt, for putting us on the right path. Without your input I would have probably never found the balance.

Bob

[dragon]

Maybe I can add a slightly different view...

firstly, as I've said before the 3 battery system is nothing more than a basic DC circuit - discharging the series batteries through a load, through the single battery and back to the neg of the series. Pretty easy to see the basics of how it functions and the "cost" can be measured and calculated.

We're simply trying to figure out how to pour water over the wheel to generate an output while pumping as much of the water as we can back to the top...

It seems most are looking at the basic circuit, moving the batteries around as the solution - it is a DC circuit ! It costs you energy to drive a load and charge the 3rd battery. The boost circuits also create an added draw on the series batteries, other than satisfying the needs of the load it is also costing us some energy. Sooooo.. the only other variable is Matt's motor - you want to know how to build it but most have no idea what it does...

So, the idea is to pump water uphill (move electrons around) to aid in the longevity of the charge or the ability to run a load longer than what would normally be expected before having to recharge the battery. To me, a battery is never dead - it contains the same amount of energy fully charged as it does in a discharged state - the only difference is the charges are balanced. When we charge a battery we aren't adding anything to it we're simply moving things around - re-creating an imbalance... taking from the neg and putting it in the pos... what are the methods we use to do this?

It seems the solutions we are after boils down to the "how" of moving the charge back to the beginning. Always moving toward the high potential instead of moving toward the neg. - constantly creating imbalance instead of moving toward a balance.

Several years back I played with the idea of battery switching but like most I suffered a severe case of tunnel vision and couldn't see the whole picture. Maybe still can't see it completely but the fog is lifting to a degree I can move forward with some ideas....

My goal is simple, I don't want to switch batteries around - I want to supply 10 amps of charging to the battery bank ( battery 3 ) and extend the ability of the series batteries to deliver this for a 3 to 4 day period at which point they could be charged. My battery bank will sustain my needs for 3 to 4 days without sun or wind but in winter there are times we have several days where the incoming charge is far less than sustainable. It would be very nice to be able to do this without purchasing another expensive bank of batteries or another array of solar panels. 10 amps 24/7 would deliver 240ah or 3.3kwh per day at 14 volts. A simple goal with enormous complications...

The diagram below show's one solution that has been reasonably successful but still lacking to some degree....

It requires 2 switches - I'm experimenting with some SSR's but I don't think they will hold up over time and plan to move to some IGBT's that I have. My test unit operates in the range of 1-5 amps currently and I've lost one switch and several diodes because of the spikes.

We can place the single battery and coil in series to aid in current/voltage return to the series batteries. The switch on cycle charges the coil and single battery through a load - switch off cycle returns the stored energy in the coil and a portion of charge of the single battery. We can use the passive (battery) storage in series with the active (coil) storage to our advantage. To what extent is yet to be seen.... I don't know if this is a workable solution to achieve my goal but so far it looks promising.

The trick is to have an inductor that can store the amount of energy needed for the return and capable of handling the amperage long term (stay cool). My best runs have been using a transformer out of a cheap stick welder ( 70 amp model ). These are built for some abuse and have some large wire windings yet still have the mh requirments for storage. (cheaper to purchase the whole welder as a donor for the transformer ).

Anyway, I hope that this at least puts some perspective to what Matt's motor is adding to the mix and removes some of the tunnel vision of just the 3 battery circuit....

[bobfrench@fastmail.fm]

Dragon,

Have you considered replacing your inductor with an inverter? The inverter Primary might serve the same purpose as your coil and it is already being pulsed as the inverter regulates it's DC input. Plus you can use the inverter output to run a charger to replenish your other batteries.

I'm living off-grid too and I have found that if I run an inverter between the 24V+ of my main bank of batteries (charged by solar) and the 12V+ of another bank with the two banks tied at the Negatives, then 1) the 12V bank charges, 2) part of the charge is returned to the 24V bank, and 3) I get to use the inverter's output for "free" while it's doing this. It's just the 3BGS with the Solar added. BUT I use the energy twice, once as it runs the inverter (and is collected in the 12V bank) and then again after the 12V bank is charged and I put the same inverter on it directly. You can effectively almost double your available energy without buying more solar panels or batteries (except to make the 12V bank).

If you try this, be advised that if the 24V bank is at a very high level and the 12V is low, then the difference between them may place the DC input to the inverter beyond its paramter specs and shut it down or blow a fuse. I have found that early morning when the panels are not yet fully charging the batteries is a good time to charge the 12V set. From noon on, on a sunny day, I have to run my air conditioner to keep the 24V bank low enough to run the inverter for charging the 12V set "for free" while running other devices off the inverter. The greater the load on the inverter the faster it charges the 12V bank. I usually charge the 12V set in the morning when needed and let the 24V set charge from noon on. With the Solar Tracker by Bedini it can charge up to over 30V and go "into the green" (fully charged conditioning mode) in a few hours on a sunny day. Overcast days take longer, but can still happen that same day. I have been surprised to see then in the green on very dark days with a little rain. I have 650Ah of 24V and 800W of panels.

Good luck,

Bob

[bobfrench@fastmail.fm]

Dragon,

I forgot to say that there's no need for the diodes or switches if you use the inverter.

Bob

[dragon]

Thanks for the input Bob ! I have tried an inverter in place of the switching circuit with varying degrees of success but wasn't completely happy with the results. I'm leaning toward a maintenance free module that can be used to offset the strings of low solar/wind output - preferably a "set it and forget it" deal used only when needed.

My house is pretty much self sufficient with the exception of my 220volt drier and deep well pump. My hot water comes from another bank of solar through an MPPT into a 1700farad bank of capacitors that drives the element ( still needs a little help now and then from the grid ). DavidE sent me a link to a really nice inverter that drives the existing heater elements directly from the panels, no batteries or special equipment. I need to add 2 more panels for this to work and buy the inverter.

I've been eyeing a pair of Freedom inverters that can be linked to provide a split phase 220 volt output which would completely replace the in coming grid lines to the fuse panel. Unfortunately, I can only drool on them until I save enough to make the upgrade.

I'm down to sustaining long periods of lousy days and basic heating circuits....

I added the circuit I've tested using the SSR's -The SSR circuit was run 4 hours at a time holding at 25.4 volts throughout.

I'm working on another circuit very similar to this one using only 1 IGBT switch. It's basically the same with the exception the feed back charge is isolated from the main series batteries then this is used to keep the series charged. I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible without added conversions which tend to eat up anything your able to recycle.

[Matthew Jones]

Ran into a little snag today with one of the batteries I wanted to use. Internal resistance has changed on it since the last time I used it, so I had to do some desulfating.
I should be able to get it running in the morning and do some tests.

Nice to see others jumping in. I would very much like to see some of that work.

Cheers
Matt

[Matthew Jones]

SO I got my setup going this morning. Looks like pigs setup but thats ok nothing a little cleaning won't take care of.
I found that the boost converters will drop out at 9.2 volt. The duty cycle at that point exceeds 95% and it shuts off.

I suggested an idea in the video for the best way to hold down battery 3 without burning a lot of power, maybe none. Feel free to try this if you are working on a setup.

Again not trying to pick on anyone, but this is a builders thread please show your work if you can and please help gather data.

Thanks
Matt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wT7...ature=youtu.be

[dragon]

After several tests with the above circuits I realized it will not do what I had hoped - my 10 amp goal. My goal will have to be met in another way.

While running heavy loads ( 5-10 amps ) the series batteries appeared to be stable but after a few hours the voltage dropped quickly in the end. I've seen this in several other projects as well. It seems to hold voltage ( appearing to be charged ) while draining the batteries ah capacity. Voltage isn't a good way to to judge a batteries state of charge - my home system monitors AH in and out which seems more reasonable yet still not completely accurate. Several occasions I noticed the batteries were considered charged when the AH were not met, later I found out that temperature has a big effect on the batteries AH. So you could charge them in an ice box using very little energy to charge them, warm them up for full AH ratings.

There are a few interesting anomalies while playing with this system though... I found that with the right load and frequency I could maintain the series batteries at 25.4 volts while barely charging the 3rd battery. Also, I could bring it to a point where it would charge the series batteries ( voltage rising ) and actually discharge the single - this I found interesting and will pursue on a small scale.

For now, I'm still in search of a solution....

[Matthew Jones]

After several tests with the above circuits I realized it will not do what I had hoped - my 10 amp goal. My goal will have to be met in another way.

While running heavy loads ( 5-10 amps ) the series batteries appeared to be stable but after a few hours the voltage dropped quickly in the end. I've seen this in several other projects as well. It seems to hold voltage ( appearing to be charged ) while draining the batteries ah capacity. Voltage isn't a good way to to judge a batteries state of charge - my home system monitors AH in and out which seems more reasonable yet still not completely accurate. Several occasions I noticed the batteries were considered charged when the AH were not met, later I found out that temperature has a big effect on the batteries AH. So you could charge them in an ice box using very little energy to charge them, warm them up for full AH ratings.

There are a few interesting anomalies while playing with this system though... I found that with the right load and frequency I could maintain the series batteries at 25.4 volts while barely charging the 3rd battery. Also, I could bring it to a point where it would charge the series batteries ( voltage rising ) and actually discharge the single - this I found interesting and will pursue on a small scale.

For now, I'm still in search of a solution....

Is there anyway you could show us what your doing?

Could you show this in your "Other Projects" as well?

Thanks
Matt

[dragon]

Matt, I put the big batteries back and laid out a smaller system to play with while contemplating another option on my 10 A goal. I can shoot a picture of this if you like.

I've laid out 2 small 7ah batteries for the series and a 500 farad bank of caps as the single. This presents a massive load so it doesn't charge as quickly as a battery of the same size would. Still the same circuit as above using 2 SSR's and one coil of the welder transformer. I'm driving the SSR's with a SG where I can control duty cycle, input intensity and frequency. I'm not driving any kind of load at this point, this is only to satisfy my curiosity with how/why it responds the way it does to different frequencies - nothing practical.

[Wistiti]

Dragon,

Have you considered replacing your inductor with an inverter? The inverter Primary might serve the same purpose as your coil and it is already being pulsed as the inverter regulates it's DC input. Plus you can use the inverter output to run a charger to replenish your other batteries.

I'm living off-grid too and I have found that if I run an inverter between the 24V+ of my main bank of batteries (charged by solar) and the 12V+ of another bank with the two banks tied at the Negatives, then 1) the 12V bank charges, 2) part of the charge is returned to the 24V bank, and 3) I get to use the inverter's output for "free" while it's doing this. It's just the 3BGS with the Solar added. BUT I use the energy twice, once as it runs the inverter (and is collected in the 12V bank) and then again after the 12V bank is charged and I put the same inverter on it directly. You can effectively almost double your available energy without buying more solar panels or batteries (except to make the 12V bank).

If you try this, be advised that if the 24V bank is at a very high level and the 12V is low, then the difference between them may place the DC input to the inverter beyond its paramter specs and shut it down or blow a fuse. I have found that early morning when the panels are not yet fully charging the batteries is a good time to charge the 12V set. From noon on, on a sunny day, I have to run my air conditioner to keep the 24V bank low enough to run the inverter for charging the 12V set "for free" while running other devices off the inverter. The greater the load on the inverter the faster it charges the 12V bank. I usually charge the 12V set in the morning when needed and let the 24V set charge from noon on. With the Solar Tracker by Bedini it can charge up to over 30V and go "into the green" (fully charged conditioning mode) in a few hours on a sunny day. Overcast days take longer, but can still happen that same day. I have been surprised to see then in the green on very dark days with a little rain. I have 650Ah of 24V and 800W of panels.

Good luck,

Bob

Hi Bob.
what is the power (watt) of the boost converter you use? your load seem to be big! I suspect you did not use the 150w Matt had shown few post ago..?

Thank you for sharing your experiment!

[Matthew Jones]

Another Test

So yesterday I ran 50 watt load all day and lost quite a bit power out of the batteries. I didn't expect anything else. But yesterday during the video I made a suggestion on how to hold down battery 3 with the boost converter.

Today I am using an inverter for a 10 watt load and using the boost to return about 2 watts to the positive side of the serial bank.

I think I have found a bit of a balance. I have been checking while this video uploads and it seems pretty stable.

I'll film again this evening so we can see the results.

https://youtu.be/j6gj3rDgMV4

Matt