Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )

[gotoluc]

Looking good JimBoot

To do a power (watts) calculation on your resistor you will need the RMS voltage value and not peak to peak. So select RMS in the display menu.

Also, make sure to check the position of the switch on your probe if it's set at 1X or 10X and make sure the software probe setting is set at the same 1X or 10X, if not the numbers will wrong.

Then you can download this software which will calculate the watts if you enter the resistor value and RMS voltage: http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/assist/assist.exe

EXAMPLE

[jimboot]

Doh - thanks Luc,
The software had an update and I can't find half the tools!

[jimboot]

A very good lecture on the effect . Think I know where James German got his idea http://youtu.be/n3f8v9bjx7g So we need a variable reluctance material for the core.

[dragon]

Just a quickie update - The base and motor is assembled, I've been reluctant to make the pulleys to finalize it for a couple of reasons, one being that it's darn cold in the shop (single digits near 0 ) and I want to make sure I have the frequency correct.

Using a drill motor I found it reaches 48 hz at 360 rpm - my initial calculations were wrong, I was thinking 14 magnets but it has 8 director poles so there are 16 reversals not 14 - not a big difference but enough to offset pulley sizes.

It requires 5.5 ft lbs of torque and at 360 rpm comes in at 281 watts pretty close to what I calculated in the static numbers. It's doing around 2.5+ amps at 360 and the input torque doesn't change when shorted. By the way it reacts I suspect amperage would rise sharply as rpms are increased.

A couple of problems still need to be addressed - in all my builds, using this concept - I've noticed voltage isn't linear to rpm like in a normal generator, and I don't understand why... there is no problem with amperage which is the key to high output. The second or still the ultimate problem is coging... I'm working on some ideas to split the stator into 3 sections and phase the cogs so they are ultimately overlapping. This would result in a 3 phase output if wired together in star or delta or could be dealt with on an individual basis depending on it's end use.

That's all I got so far... it's been challenging to say the least....

[gotoluc]

Just a quickie update - The base and motor is assembled, I've been reluctant to make the pulleys to finalize it for a couple of reasons, one being that it's darn cold in the shop (single digits near 0 ) and I want to make sure I have the frequency correct.

Using a drill motor I found it reaches 48 hz at 360 rpm - my initial calculations were wrong, I was thinking 14 magnets but it has 8 director poles so there are 16 reversals not 14 - not a big difference but enough to offset pulley sizes.

It requires 5.5 ft lbs of torque and at 360 rpm comes in at 281 watts pretty close to what I calculated in the static numbers. It's doing around 2.5+ amps at 360 and the input torque doesn't change when shorted. By the way it reacts I suspect amperage would rise sharply as rpms are increased.

Sounds like good progress and thanks for the update!

A couple of problems still need to be addressed - in all my builds, using this concept - I've noticed voltage isn't linear to rpm like in a normal generator, and I don't understand why... there is no problem with amperage which is the key to high output. The second or still the ultimate problem is coging... I'm working on some ideas to split the stator into 3 sections and phase the cogs so they are ultimately overlapping. This would result in a 3 phase output if wired together in star or delta or could be dealt with on an individual basis depending on it's end use.

I am very familiar with this stable voltage effect.
I've worked with Thane Heins for many years and his coils do the same thing. This is why I have said form the beginning of this topic that this is another way of doing what Thane does with his coils.
What I'm going to share here is very important
This summer I was working with Thane to further develop the technology. In the attempt I made a light weight Epoxy Fiberglass 52 magnet rotor in the effort of reducing prime mover input power and to also use half the RPM compared to his super heavy 1/4" solid steel rotor with 26 magnets.

The result was, the effect pretty well vanished!
He kind of knew this would happen because in the past made a rotor out of aluminum and lost the effect but I guess he wanted to see me confirm it.

There are many other finer details that I know from experience which I won't go into but the stable voltage and the need of Iron to store magnet flux in are the main keys to this effect which is a variation of what Thane has been doing.

I must say that the Ramadan device is easier to understand and hopefully by working together and sharing we will accelerate the ideal ways to use the effect.
You seem to have a great start.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Hi everyone,

I was doing tests yesterday with the Ramadan Bitt configuration trying to understand why each coil was behaving differently under load or shorted.
This may be of importance?
What I found was, only the left coil when shorted would cause the prime mover to drop in input power if the right coil was under a 1 Ohm load.
When I reversed the scenario, left coil on load and right coil shorted it would not cause the prime mover input power to drop.
So after more pocking around I found the left coil wire is shorted to the core, so the layer of protective tape I first added when winding the coil wire must of been compromised.

I made a video of it so we can have a reference of the effect before taking the coil off and rewinding them over better core protection.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEPo97MKpUg

I will rewind the coils and re-test to see if I can get the same effect without the coil shorting to the core.

Stay tuned for the update.

Luc

[jimboot]

Just a quickie update - The base and motor is assembled, I've been reluctant to make the pulleys to finalize it for a couple of reasons, one being that it's darn cold in the shop (single digits near 0 ) and I want to make sure I have the frequency correct.

Using a drill motor I found it reaches 48 hz at 360 rpm - my initial calculations were wrong, I was thinking 14 magnets but it has 8 director poles so there are 16 reversals not 14 - not a big difference but enough to offset pulley sizes.

It requires 5.5 ft lbs of torque and at 360 rpm comes in at 281 watts pretty close to what I calculated in the static numbers. It's doing around 2.5+ amps at 360 and the input torque doesn't change when shorted. By the way it reacts I suspect amperage would rise sharply as rpms are increased.

A couple of problems still need to be addressed - in all my builds, using this concept - I've noticed voltage isn't linear to rpm like in a normal generator, and I don't understand why... there is no problem with amperage which is the key to high output. The second or still the ultimate problem is coging... I'm working on some ideas to split the stator into 3 sections and phase the cogs so they are ultimately overlapping. This would result in a 3 phase output if wired together in star or delta or could be dealt with on an individual basis depending on it's end use.

That's all I got so far... it's been challenging to say the least....

Totally agree Dragon. You double your RPMs and get no reward for it! On the flipside though it means I can use less input. I don't have a cogging problem but I do have an amperage issue. Does the cogging lessen when you get up to speed?

Luc that is very interesting re the rotor. I've been trying to isolate my rotor irons from each other, so I was surprised with the output of your latest rig.

The isolated irons cogg more, I don't suppose you have a rotoe that is a single piece Dragon?

[dragon]

Luc - your last video with the added core piece, the magnet is adding one pole to the core of your coils, the iron base of your drill is the second pole. By adding the core your giving it a larger surface area to return to the opposite pole on the drill base. So is your shorted coil producing a reversing pole that helps complete the path of the loaded coil? It might be interesting to see the difference of magnetically shorting that leg to the drill base...

On the stable voltage effect, have you come to any conclusions as to the cause of this?

[dragon]

Totally agree Dragon. You double your RPMs and get no reward for it! On the flipside though it means I can use less input. I don't have a cogging problem but I do have an amperage issue. Does the cogging lessen when you get up to speed?

Luc that is very interesting re the rotor. I've been trying to isolate my rotor irons from each other, so I was surprised with the output of your latest rig.

The isolated irons cogg more, I don't suppose you have a rotoe that is a single piece Dragon?

Jimboot - once it starts rotating the force is reduced and appears to remain the same through a range of rpms - which is and isn't good. It's good in the sense it's reduced but remaining stable means input requirements increase with rpm. That really wouldn't be a problem overall if voltage and current were linear... it's just another challenge to investigate and overcome...

[gotoluc]

Luc - your last video with the added core piece, the magnet is adding one pole to the core of your coils, the iron base of your drill is the second pole. By adding the core your giving it a larger surface area to return to the opposite pole on the drill base. So is your shorted coil producing a reversing pole that helps complete the path of the loaded coil? It might be interesting to see the difference of magnetically shorting that leg to the drill base...

Well, it now looks like the shorted coil to core was fooling me. I've re-isolated the cores and re-wound the coils and now it operates just like a normal Generator. So now shorting one coil when the other is 1 Ohm loaded no longer drops the input power, it actually increases the input!

The only thing that does decrease the input power is by adding the cores to the unloaded coil base which I demonstrated in my last video.
However, as you pointed out, the cores are coupling the opposite pole (drill plate) on that side of the C core which relieves the rotor to core drag.
We may say great that's still a saving but it's not, since if I remove the 1 Ohm load the prime mover input is lowered by that amount and if I connect the load once again, there's close to 6 watts increase to input to deliver 5 watts to the 1 Ohm load.
So it now seems there's nothing out of the ordinary going on in this Bitt version of the Ramadan device.

I'll be resuming my tests on the thngr's simple version.

On the stable voltage effect, have you come to any conclusions as to the cause of this?

Sorry, I have not come to any conclusion.
Some weeks back I started a topic at the OU forum and was trying to share the results of a ReGen-X coil effects, in hopes as a group we may come to some idea of what's causing the effects but before getting to it MileHigh (an EE at the forum) was making a mockery of me so I closed the topic.

Anyways, hopefully in time we can solve it here.

Looking forward to your results.

Luc

[dragon]

Well, it now looks like the shorted coil to core was fooling me. I've re-isolated the cores and re-wound the coils and now it operates just like a normal Generator. So now shorting one coil when the other is on the 1 Ohm load no longer drops the input power, it actually increases the input now!

The only thing that does decrease the input power is by adding the cores to the unloaded coil base which like dragon says is bringing the opposite pole (drill plate) on that side which relieves the core rotor drag.
But if I remove the 1 Ohm load to the coil my prime mover input is also lowered by the same amount.
So it seems now there is nothing out of the ordinary going on in this configuration.



Sorry, I have not come to any conclusion.
Some weeks back I started a topic at the OU forum and was trying to share the results of a ReGen-X coil effects, in hopes as a group we may come to some idea of what's causing the effects but before getting to it MileHigh (an EE at the forum) was making a mockery of me so I closed the topic.

Anyways, hopefully in time we can solve it here.

Looking forward to your results.

Luc

Well Luc, it appears we are both at a stale mate... I started repositioning the magnets by moving the shaft around and was actually gaining in voltage and current... then... the center pin that holds the magnet drum on the shaft sheared. One step forward... two steps back.

While I'm repairing it, I'll have to put some thought into the cause of this voltage effect. If we can generate lots of current in the coils what would cause the voltage to remain stable ? It almost sounds like a phasing problem.....

[gotoluc]

Actually dragon on the stable voltage effect I can share what I've been thinking may causes it, so please keep in mind this is only my own explanation based on my observations and may be completely off.
As I've mention this is typical in a ReGen-X generator coils. They exhibits this behavior when the following conditions are met:
the load resistor is a small value like 1 Ohm, when the RPM (frequency) is high enough which causes a current phase shift, when the magnet rotor is made of solid steel (Iron content) (magnetic flux circuit) and if the coils are wound as high voltage rather then high current. Bifilar has proven to work better with less turns compared to a single wire.

Now on the voltage thing. When the rotor first starts the voltage will start at a small value and keep rising as the RPM (frequency) rises. However, at a certain RPM it will level off no matter how much the RPM keeps rising. Around the RPM the voltage levels off usually coincides where if you connect or disconnect the load there is no effect to the prime mover if the above ReGen-X conditions have been met.

What I think may be going on at this point is, the coil is no longer a coil as we know it, I think it's become a kind of hybride (inductor & capacitor) and somehow allows the stored magnetic flux current in the steel rotor and cores to be electrically transferred though the coil wires. However, the wires may still have Inductance, so it may be the cause of delay in current.

I don't know if this helps you understand any more on what could be taken place. Please feel free to ask questions on what's unclear to you.

Here's a video I recently made for the topic I ended up closing. I start with a standard coil in phase with a ReGen-X coil. The standard coil is used as a magnet position indicator. When the ReGen-X coil is place under a 1 Ohm load you can clearly see the current shifts (delayed)

Link to video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0N0-sxa09c

I'll try to make a new video for you to demonstrate the voltage climb and stabilizing effect.

Hope this helps

Luc

[dragon]

I'm not sure, as yet, if we are dealing with similar effects. It appears I have a changing force that equates to current production that successfully alleviates Lenz forces from the rotating directors but no angular component that normally equates to voltage production.

In a normal generator the flux would penetrate the coils on an angular velocity and voltage will rise. As it enters voltage rises to its peak and as it retreats voltage falls. Current would lag voltage slightly when a load is applied.

I "assumed" the changing flux would supply all the components of a normal generator but obviously this isn't the case... I didn't follow a rule I learned a long time ago from a wise mentor... "never assume anything".

So from this observation velocity produces voltage and the force of change produces current. Two separate entities combined? So.. is voltage and current actually 2 separate entities that compliment each other? Can we generate voltage without current? Can we generate current without voltage? Can they be generated separately then combined?

An interesting dilemma...

[Tishatang]

Can we generate voltage without current? Can we generate current without voltage? Can they be generated separately then combined?

I think the answer to these questions might be related to what looks like the ability to generate a magnetic field without current! This is about antenna design and RF fields. But, maybe the concept applies also here? This is more than theory because actual antennas have been built by "synthesizing" the field.

Crossed-Field AM Radio Transmission Antenna - 1/50 Wavelength Long; 100 kW

I heard about one of the 5,000 patents withheld in the "interests of national security" was for a antenna patent. The DOE stole the inventor's patent, issued him a gag order and told him to not reveal anything to anyone. Pure speculation, but suppose this was the ability to transmit power at a distance ala Tesla and his Pierce Arrow car by synthesizing the waves and recombining upon reception?

Anyway, food for thought.

Chris

[dragon]

When things go wrong we tend to search for answers and solutions to the problem... sometimes over thinking things to extremes. At times it's good to shift to extreme as it generates new thoughts in areas you may not have considered, other times it may simply be something that was overlooked and not easily seen in the fog of frustration.

Going back to the smaller version I found that my timing on the larger one is a bit off - causing an overlap and ultimately canceling out a portion of the voltage.

On the scope the pincore was showing a mild clipping of an almost perfect triangle wave... it didn't sink in at first as I struggled to figure out where the voltage was going - then the pin sheared on the magnet drum and I was reacting out of frustration in search of the answer. The small one produces an almost perfect sine and after measuring output at various rpms it is following a linear progression, to a certain degree, of voltage production and is predictable.

Like I said, this one would give me all the data I needed to build a 3rd rotor. For now, since it's so darn cold in the shop, I'm going to set the pincore project aside and work with the smaller one while refining and designing the - hopefully - final pincore rotor.

I've come up with some interesting ideas on increasing output of this small 6 pole version. My video skills are poor at best and my equipment is even worse but I'll put something together on this small one to give everyone a good idea of what I'm seeing and why it's inspired me to follow this path...