Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )

[gotoluc]

I found this work reminiscent of Joe Flynn s "Parallel paths" work of some years ago , We dont seem to hear much from Joe since he became involved with the military still as a quick reminder of his work

How Parallel Path Gets Over Unity

Hi Duncan,

you may not be aware but a high quality replication of the Flynn PP motor was built by Jetijs 5 years ago which demonstrated no OU

Topic: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...replicate.html

Video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1MVYvlQqnM

Lets not post anything more about this here

Kind regards

Luc

[jimboot]

Great to see all the threads on the forums all of a sudden getting active. Thanks to your great builds grum, luc & dragon at

What I can tell you with my latest build having the iron director pass between like poles will double to triple the output. The way I'm currently configuring it in say a design like dragons is to simply have a mag of the same pole at the outer end of a coil core. I remembered the effect from one of luc older experiments showing the effect of same poles facing on solenoids. Also some similar effects in some jack hb based test I did.

I'm trying to visualize what is going on by watching all ken wheelers vids

Anyway something else for the theorists to do some heavy lifting on Smiley if we can understand it or if I can get confirmation that would help. I'll do a scope tomorrow after work.

[dragon]

I spent most of my free time yesterday laying out design parameters and defining what I want out of the next build - filling 3 white boards with ideas and layouts. Nothing is concrete at this point - but a beginning. This is probably the most difficult part of a build. Here are a few things that you want to keep in mind...

- Shortest flux path possible to focus the field through the coils ( no stray paths, leakage or excess magnetic resistance )
- Enough room for copper to fulfill the intended output requirements
- Smallest rotor diameter as physically possible to reduce overall input torque
- Maximum size and strength of magnets

We all have an idea of what we would like to have - but think about it a bit and toss in your idea's.... I'm not looking for impractical goals such as a 2 MegW machine that will fit inside a button hole but some idea of what people are thinking would be sufficient for a first design ( or re-design in this case ).

Something very practical and very do-able.

In order to get to a place we want to be we need to know where we want to go... in this case we have to build the road...

[rosehillworks]

Dragon

Thank you for your insights. I am trying to wrap my head around what you are doing I think I understand it now. Do you see any reason why I could not use the casing and statr of an
alternator as building blocks for your design?
If not I do not want to waste anyones time going down that road.

[dragon]

William, My appologies - I was out of line

[Grumage]

Dear All.

Something to stimulate the more erudite members of this forum ??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzdf8kOfSow

Thoughts ?

Cheers Grum.

[dragon]

Erudite? I consider myself upper level rock - not the dumbest rock but close...

It appears that mass increases the effect, I would imagine there is a lot of capacitive voltage generated in that core. If you put a scope probe on it you might find there is a considerable amount of activity.

I wonder what would happen if you put an earth ground on the core?

Fun Stuff !!!

[gyula]

Hi Grum,

I second what Dragon wrote and would like to add my 2 cent.

1) the crocodyle clip is ferromagnetic and when you move it close to the coil or to the coil core, the L inductance of the coil increases. This means the output voltage level also increases, it is like you add more turns to a coil.
2) on the LED load: I suppose if you were to use say a resistor for the load, instead of the LEDs, then the ouput voltage would also go up like that, have you tried that? IF not, I suggest a 10 or 20 Ohm resistor (or higher) to check it.
3) the iron piece you used for the shield in the Gary tests also increases the L inductance of the coil (like the croco clip) but it has a higher mass than the croco clip so it can increase inductance (hence output voltage, hence power) to a bit higher level than the croco. IF you have an L meter, you may wish to check this with the coil when the motor is off.
4) when you touch the coil core with your finger, I think your hand 'works' as an EM field guide and the stray fields near and around your setup can a little bit "focused" onto that particular coil. Also, it is possible your hand capacity changes the coil's self capacitance and this influences the L inductance of the coil. This latter is more likely than the first.

It would be useful for us if you tell the DC resistance of the coils. Also if you still have the coils of the MK1 version (where you used a 0.1 Ohm resistor shunt) would you tell the DC resistance too.

ADDITION: Forgot to write: a permanent magnet has a permeability of 1.1 or so, very close to that of the air (because the magnet material is almost fully saturated). This is why it does not add an increase to the L inductance of the coil. In fact it can influence the core of a coil by changing the core permeability (hence the L inductance) but in this case it seems your core has a low permeability value, and / or your magnet is not so strong. The possibly low or relatively low permeability of your core manifests in that a croco clip can influence the inductance as much as the video shows.

Thanks, Gyula

[Grumage]

Hi Grum,

I second what Dragon wrote and would like to add my 2 cent.

1) the crocodyle clip is ferromagnetic and when you move it close to the coil or to the coil core, the L inductance of the coil increases. This means the output voltage level also increases, it is like you add more turns to a coil.
2) on the LED load: I suppose if you were to use say a resistor for the load, instead of the LEDs, then the ouput voltage would also go up like that, have you tried that? IF not, I suggest a 10 or 20 Ohm resistor (or higher) to check it.
3) the iron piece you used for the shield in the Gary tests also increases the L inductance of the coil (like the croco clip) but it has a higher mass than the croco clip so it can increase inductance (hence output voltage, hence power) to a bit higher level than the croco. IF you have an L meter, you may wish to check this with the coil when the motor is off.
4) when you touch the coil core with your finger, I think your hand 'works' as an EM field guide and the stray fields near and around your setup can a little bit "focused" onto that particular coil. Also, it is possible your hand capacity changes the coil's self capacitance and this influences the L inductance of the coil. This latter is more likely than the first.

It would be useful for us if you tell the DC resistance of the coils. Also if you still have the coils of the MK1 version (where you used a 0.1 Ohm resistor shunt) would you tell the DC resistance too.

ADDITION: Forgot to write: a permanent magnet has a permeability of 1.1 or so, very close to that of the air (because the magnet material is almost fully saturated). This is why it does not add an increase to the L inductance of the coil. In fact it can influence the core of a coil by changing the core permeability (hence the L inductance) but in this case it seems your core has a low permeability value, and / or your magnet is not so strong. The possibly low or relatively low permeability of your core manifests in that a croco clip can influence the inductance as much as the video shows.

Thanks, Gyula

Dear Gyula.

Thank you for taking the time to post your observations.

Here is a reply from Verpies @ OUR.

Flux Gate Interrupter, BEMF Redirector

Ok on to some further observations. The average coil resistance is 50 Ohm's through the set of eight coils.

The coil under test was 49.5 Ohm, inductance open 246 mH with Croc clip 254 mH and with Silicon Steel strip 290 mH respectively. I have to agree there is a small increase in inductance.

I replaced the LED bank with a 10 Ohm carbon film resistor as suggested and......... indicated voltage was 0.15 V DC.

I wasn't sure whether you had noticed that the other end of TK's favourite piece of test equipment was actually connected to the Negative side of the coil ? This does increase the output voltage further when connected !!

Testing will continue......

Cheers Grum.

[gyula]

Dear Grum,

Thanks for the further details and the link to Verpies reply. He referred also to the differing permeability of a permanent magnet and that of an iron piece you used, and mentioned the huge stray fields due to the lack of flux return path for the permanent magnets, I agree with him.

Okay on measuring the coils inductances, also with the croco clip and with the steel strip (earlier I referred to the latter as an iron piece). The increase in inductance explains the induced output voltage increase.

For generating output power, the coils inner DC resistance is to be chosen as minimal as possible, the 50 Ohm is very high. Unfortunately, to get low DC resistance for a coil, one has to use thick wire and this inherently involves large sized coils. I guess you just chose those coils as being ready and at hand and to get a decent output voltage from their relatively high number of turns. Of course, for test purposes one tries to use components at hand which do not always fit for a task therefore one has to be aware of possible pitfalls.

When you loaded the output with the 10 Ohm resistor and you got 0.15 VDC across it, it means that quasi 95% or more of the total generated output remained in the coil and dissipated in the coil wire. I seem to have advised a"wrong" value when I suggested the 10 Ohm load for a test but eventually this result showed the coil provides a relatively high generator impedance which does not let a decent current flow to a low impedance load like a 10 Ohm one. Your LED diode assembly seems to have a much higher loading impedance than the 10 Ohm because the unloaded 8 V or so output voltage does not drop in level, what is more it increases output voltage by 1 V or so.

However your LED load is also a tricky load, and I know you mentioned elsewhere you are aware of it being a nonlinear load.
I have made a drawing in Paint to illustrate how a LED diode as a load may behave when we talk about current draw, depending on the output voltage level of a full wave rectifier bridge versus the forward voltage threshold level of a LED.

You can see the big difference between the average load currents when there is no puffer capacitor at the diode bridge DC output. The load current becomes "intermittent" whenever the instanteneus voltage level goes below the forward voltage level of the LED, while in case of using a puffer capacitor, the current is able to flow continuously, provided the coils AC output voltage is still maintained by the generating process for the increased average load current too (so the output power does not remain in the coil as heat loss due to the increased load current).

You did not mention in the video whether you had a puffer capacitor at the diode bridge output.

So your LED diodes as a load surely represent at least a several hundred Ohm equivalent resistor, perhaps near to the lower kOhm range, so if you still have the setup and the mood, try to use a 1 kOhm or higher resistor load and see whether the DC output voltage tends to increase by 1 V like with the LEDs. Perhaps a 2.2 or 4.7 kOhm potmeter would serve for this test as the load, setting it to the high kOhm range and coming down with it while watching the output voltage level. This way you could estimate fairly well what power a group of 'bright' LEDs may consume. (use a 220 Ohm or so resistor in series with the potmeter to protect the latter from burning the resistive layer under the wiper)

Unfortunately, I do not know what TK's favorite piece of test equipment is, please tell what it is.

Hopefully all this helps you in your efforts to further evaluate your findings in the tests and I wish you good luck. If there is something I was not clear on, please ask.

Gyula

[prochiro]

Good Job!

Gyula
Your soft and comprehensive explanation to Grum and to many here is an example of great teamwork. Using the example at hand to bring up others to a level of understanding where all are at or near enough to an understanding that all can contribute and feel a part of success that this project delivers. The drawing also shows it all .

Thanks and keep it up.
Prochiro

[Grumage]

Dear Gyula.

Once again, a full and well detailed explanation, thank you.

So effectively I have an impedance miss match ??

Rather than repeat myself again, please see my post over at OUR, I would like to know what your thoughts are?

Flux Gate Interrupter, BEMF Redirector

Oh, TK's favourite piece of test equipment ? Being jocular, of course, see attached image !!

Cheers Grum.

[dragon]

It appears you are overlooking the resistive value of the entire circuit...You have 1.34 volts in a 50 ohm circuit + resistor... Allowing for all variables you have 27ma current for a total of .036 watts.

[gyula]

Hi Grum,

I am pleased the finger-touch and slight pressing question is cleared now.

What is more important is that as shown in your last but one video you measured 3.8 V peak to peak voltage across the 0.1 Ohm resistor and 28 V peak to peak unloaded voltage. 3.8 Vpp is 1.34 Vrms and figuring the current that caused this voltage drop gives I=1.34/0.1=13.4 Amper indeed. Considering the coils 50 Ohm DC resistance, my answer is that this is not possible, somewhere there is a problem, either in the probe or the scope settings or the scope calibration or the 0.1 Ohm is not 0.1 Ohm, etc etc.
Thinking backwards, the induced voltage is 28 Vpp, this is nearly 10 Vrms and this voltage is not able to create 13.4 A current in the 50 Ohm coil which has also the inductive AC impedance in addition to its DC resistance. Suppose the current is indeed 13.4 A, the total AC impedance should be Z = 10V/13.4A = 0.746 Ohm, ok? (The 10 Vrms is induced in the coil when the 0.1 Ohm is across it, no problem with that.)

Or you used different coil sets in your last but one video when the 1.34 V was measured across the 0.1 Ohm?

You wrote in your answer #327 to Luc:
"I have been testing further, not one coil will drive a single 12v 0.8 W incandescent bulb but it will drive a bank 1 W LED's to a fair degree of brightness."

The bulb you refer to has 180 Ohm hot resistance at 12V, and because it was cold when you tried to drive it from the coil, the cold resistance must have been in the some hundred Ohm range, right? This means that when such "high" resistor is connected to the coil, there will be no enough output voltage left to drive the bulb because the total induced voltage will be shared between the coil impedance and this cold some hundred Ohm bulb, they form a simple series voltage divider from the induced voltage point of view and the output voltage depends on the ratio of their impedances.

SO, Yes there is an impedance mismatch between the generator coil and its load. You can find the load resistance which gives a power match by checking what resistor value halves the output voltage with respect to the unloaded output voltage. Remember though that in the matched case when you achieve it, half of the total induced power will be dissipated in the coil. So eventually you will be forced to use coils with as low inner impedance as possible and practical for the setup.

Gyula

[Grumage]

Dear Gyula.

I have put together a short video of the test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s95CwLmqB-0

I know you will tell me where I have gone wrong !!

Cheers Grum.

PS. Forgive me if I pronounced your pen name incorrectly !!