Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )

[tysb3]

@ UFO
Hi,
I think You something missing and wasting your expensive time in wrong direction. please check this picture: http://realstrannik.com/media/kunena.../Animation.gif

there are switching magnetic poles to opposite, not rotating. the iron plates is magnetic switchers.

[Ufopolitics]

Architechture of the Generator Cycle (Timing)

Hello to All,

First, thanks for the compliments of my video. I am still not happy with the results as I have to align and center a lot of components (parts) as some may have to be replaced...looking for a better , less mechanical drag model. I would also be adding external generating coils/core, and making a new inner static field core, based on Six pole design.

Now, there is some knowledge I feel it needs to be shared here, related to a 'Conventional' Two Part Generator...in order to 'Clear Clouds' avoiding waste of time and frustrations when it comes to building from scratch Generating Fields/Cores (Induced) and Exciters (Inductors).

Every Generator obeys to a 'Cycle'...a Timing that would output a clean wave, and is directly related to the way Inductor 'Cycles' its Magnetic Field Influence (North and South) on the Induced Coils.

So, We can NOT add more Iron Elements, nor increase the OEM Circumference of the Inductor Steel Area in the Iron Elements either...expecting to obtain more output...because it will NOT happen...all We will achieve are Distorted Sine Waves, that will not 'Land' on a neutral and common Point...

[IMG][/IMG]

Above is a typical Two Part Gen Head (3K) that I own...I have set here the Neutral 'Point' at Rotor (Inductor) and centered by the green intermittent line and "CENTER" text. And actually, this is not 'just' a point, but a sweeping angle, where the line would be the bisector of that angle.

On the Two Charts showing the Sine Wave are L1, L2, L3 and L4 on left, those are Overlapped Coils wound Clockwise (CW) when looking to frontal view of steel Outer Housing(Left Upper Mounting Hole)...and L5 to L8 are wound CCW when looking frontal on their center (Right Lower Mounting Hole)...So, it all resumes in a SINGLE COIL distributed along all 24 Teeth/Poles of that Exterior Steel Housing the Generating Fields...BUT Divided in TWO by that specific Green Line...not a big deal guys...and not that "complicated" either...when we dissect it in detail like I have done ...

Now, following Rotation "R", South Pole from Inductor will start the Negative Cycle from this line on, Inducing Negatively L1 to L4, as it starts entering majority of their greater number of center poles, one by one...and so with the North Pole (at 180º)...where it would be generating the Positive Sine Wave on L5 to L8...And ALL from this NEUTRAL, ZERO cross Point on Graphic.

This Neutral or "Idling" Angle is utilized to establish 're-feeding' from E1 and E2 in Orange Coils...(those Coils could be easily identified, since they are of finer awg than Generating Wires)...and they communicate with Rotor Inductor Coils Via Slip Ring/Brushes...and are attached to a Running Cap in a closed loop. They are in charge to keep transferring back and forth the Magnetic Field strength to Inductor. On a Brushless Design they redirect magnetic strength from core to core, and Rotary Inductor Coils are closed looped through Diodes (to keep steady Polarity N-S) and a Varistor/Movistor to maintain the desired rated Voltage.

On the Model I built on Video, I originally wound a Sequence of overlapped turns like in a Symmetrical Motor (is in the "Winding Sequence" of my Diagram Bottom Right)...and it did not output one single penny......They cancelled each others in every turn...so I had to redo it the way I show on video, and the way it is displayed above.

[IMG][/IMG]

An OEM Two Pole Inductor Generator MUST have a Dual Split (Two(2) Sets of Overlapped Coils) like shown above on First Diagram...and if We add Four Poles Inductor or Iron Elements...We will be definitively altering the sine wave into a weird/non usable output that will never fall to a neutral/zero point...or could do, but randomly through the cycle. Something similar to what Gotoluc Member showed when He ran random pieces of steel over random coils, not following a timed sequence...not going through this cycle.

A Four Pole OEM Inductor Generator MUST have 'Quad Split' or Four sets of Overlapped Coils, in order that a Four, NSNS arrangement of the Inductor Poles will be sweeping timely on those Four Sets of Coils.

We can NOT have Two Poles (N-S, nor N-N) sweeping the same set of Overlapped Coils in the same Phase/Time. The Second Runner Pole will not allow the first to 'land' on Zero...and so on the following one.

I am writing this basically...because I see many of you starting from scratch...and planning to wind your own Generating Coils....and/or adding 'more poles' to the OEM standard design...it will not work that simple guys...sorry to tell you, but it is the God honest truth...And it applies to every single Generator on Earth We will ever wind.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

@ UFO
Hi,
I think You something missing and wasting your expensive time in wrong direction. please check this picture: http://realstrannik.com/media/kunena.../Animation.gif

there are switching magnetic poles to opposite, not rotating. the iron plates is magnetic switchers.

Hello tysb3,

Thank You for worrying about wasting my time in wrong direction...Science is just like that...we must keep going to find where is the 'precious key' to success...there are no 'formulas' to get there my friend.

I know what you mean, and thanks for the gif, great moving design!

I could make my small model to switch polarities anytime as well, just by changing the way Iron Plates are receiving magnetic influence from the same Magnets, (just making 'half plates' at 180º reaching both ends to stator-magnets)...and vualá, iron will 'switch' polarities then...capisci, understand?

The problem with switching polarities is the cogging will arrive/come back with the 'package'...and that's what I was trying to avoid...

The only way to know if something works or not...is to BUILD IT...there are no math formulas, no equations that will dictate how Science will develop...except by making it happen...

The "KEY" Two (2) Questions here are...:

1-Is it the 'Switching Polarity' on the Iron creating this effect?

2-Or is it the fact that Stators and Generating Fields are static, and rotating Iron is Deviating/Deflecting B-Fields?...as well as serving as an Air cushion/clutch Gap that absorbs 'some' of Lenz counter forces?

Or We could have a Third one...

3-May be Both above are required to have 'heaven'?

This is the way I attack the 'unknown' my friend...


Thanks again.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Thanks and congratulations on a working proof of concept Ufo. Very interesting, as always. Is there a larger, improved build in the future?

May I request one thing? The next time you test would you compare the output voltage and amperage using a small resistor both clockwise and counter-clockwise rotation at the same rpm? I would be interested to see if there is a difference.

Regards

Thanks Cadman,

I would love to make a larger Model...still working on the smaller one....want to satisfy some doubts before I move on.

1-I want to build another Aluminum Drum, but installing Radial (Motor) Magnets...to see if there are any differences from this original design...so no Iron rotating...let's see what happens when I load same bulb.'

2-Want to try switching polarities on same rotating Iron Cores design...same Axial magnets, half circumference iron rings...different interchangeable parts...same embodiment.

I have to get a part for my Lathe...a new Chuck to allow center drilling on fine Rods...to have Chuck to Chuck facing each others. Is very hard to find right size/diameter parts for small builds like this...

Sure I will do that test, sounds interesting...looking for differences in the way/direction they revolve Huh?...

I am also working on another Generator Model...a bigger one...different concept though...does not belong to this Thread...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[jimboot]

Essentially this is the effect I am examining in this generator. I've tried to show it with this simple experiment. http://youtu.be/4OSXbG2BmUw

[Cadman]

Ufo,

Correct me if I'm wrong ('cause if I am then I'm in trouble ) but isn't the image of your 3kw gen a 240VAC with two separate 120VAC windings, one winding on either side of your center line?

Even if it's only a 120VAC gen the position of the rotor shows it at the max induction point, both sides of every coil induced, so wouldn't the zero volt crossing or neutral line be about 90 degrees from your center line (where there are no wires in the slots)?

Or am I just confused?

[Ufopolitics]

Generator Wirings

Ufo,

Correct me if I'm wrong ('cause if I am then I'm in trouble ) but isn't the image of your 3kw gen a 240VAC with two separate 120VAC windings, one winding on either side of your center line?

Cadman...You are in big time trouble!...

That 3K Gen is a piece of crap...only 120V, one dual outlet, but same white-black wires.

And I believe related to the windings, you are not understanding the way I set the overlapped Coils...I made this Diagram...to see if now you understand it...

[IMG][/IMG]

You can not have one full winding on one side and then another (separated) on the other side...each winding (in the case there are two separate windings...they would be wound as a 'bifilar' dual wires in parallel for a Two Pole Generator in order to get Two Outputs and both at 240V.

Even if it's only a 120VAC gen the position of the rotor shows it at the max induction point, both sides of every coil induced, so wouldn't the zero volt crossing or neutral line be about 90 degrees from your center line (where there are no wires in the slots)?

Or am I just confused?

Yes, I believe you are confused my friend...the Max Induction Point (Sine Peaks on both ends, negative+positive) would be 90º from that CENTER Green Line...That is when Rotor Poles are Fully Covering a higher percentage of the whole Wrapped Coils INNER STEEL CORES on both ends.

That is why at this CENTER Line and across 180º is where the Exciter Coils E1 + E2 are located.

Take a look at it again with this new graphic...


There is even a simpler way to look at this...

Take L1, L2, L3 and L4 off their slots and make then a round chunk of wires all together...then do the same with L5 to L8...what do you have?

[IMG][/IMG]

You have exactly ONE COIL SPLIT IN TWO PARTS...in order to allow center Rotor...

Same winding direction...from start to end all from L1 to L8.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[jimboot]

The building continues http://youtu.be/Dhc0aF1TuGA,
Later worked that the leads get hot unloaded too. I'm not concerned because the motor is just for testing. After doing calculations on my last rig I reckoned I'd need to greatly alter the design to get everything where I needed for maximum output. When I looked at the effort involved I decided it was time to use the mag rotors. For all the facing about I think I may have been better to stay with the last setup and take some measurements. I think will go back to an improved version of that one and skip a scope on everything

[Cadman]

Ufo,
Thanks for taking the time to respond and work up such nice, clear as day images.

Ok, I am still confused, yes, definitely.

We see things from a different perspectives it seems. For instance you see the winding as a single coil, and I see it as 8 coils in series, and it is the same either way.

Here is where our understanding diverges. You say...

… the Max Induction Point (Sine Peaks on both ends, negative+positive) would be 90º from that CENTER Green Line...That is when Rotor Poles are Fully Covering a higher percentage of the whole Wrapped Coils INNER STEEL CORES on both ends.

or in other words, judging by the second image, where the coil turns are enclosing the the most flux. Correct?

And this is how I understand the process.

From “Basic Motor and Generator Theory”

The coil in position AB, in figure 2, encloses the maximum amount of flux. The enclosed flux decreases as the coil moves toward position CD and becomes zero at CD, since the plane of the coil is parallel to the magnetic field. Then the enclosed flux increases in the opposite direction, reaching a negative maximum at BA and diminishing again to zero at DC. The flux reverses and increases again in the original direction to reach a maximum at AB.

Although the flux is maximum at positions AB and BA and zero at positions CD and DC, the induced EMF will be maximum at positions CD and DC and zero at positions AB and BA. This is true because the EMF depends upon the rate of change of flux or rate of cutting flux lines and not upon the quantity enclosed.

My apologies to everyone if this seems to be getting off topic, but I am getting close to building both versions of Syair's generator and I think it is pertinent to nail down this concept.

Regards

Cadman

[d3x0r]

Similar... but not entirely different... magnet separated by iron to pickups? thought for food maybe... and maybe it was in this thread that I saw it?

I stumbled on this other guy...
Gerard Morin (youtube)

http://youtu.be/dEaSvtjoAMk?t=11m Describes exactly what this 'pump' is...

It's a water pump from a front load washing machine... it's got a coil (2 coils) on steel laminations, with a rotor with permanent magnet (2 poles, 1N 1S) ...

(whirlpool drain assist pump)
http://youtu.be/2abTptUYXH8?t=9m9s (kinda shows replacement of a similar pump)

(image link)


similar models...
https://www.google.com/search?q=whir..._AUoAw&dpr=0.9
-----------
I suppose that the motor is able to use more power from the batteries than the loads themselves... so really powerin is powerout?

[dragon]

Cadman is correct..... current is generated as the poles are nearing the coil leg and the direction of current is based on the pole.

[Ufopolitics]

Ufo,
Thanks for taking the time to respond and work up such nice, clear as day images.

My pleasure Cadman

Ok, I am still confused, yes, definitely.

You said it before...that you were "in trouble"...

We see things from a different perspectives it seems. For instance you see the winding as a single coil, and I see it as 8 coils in series, and it is the same either way.

Here is where our understanding diverges. You say... or in other words, judging by the second image, where the coil turns are enclosing the the most flux. Correct?

And this is how I understand the process.

From “Basic Motor and Generator Theory”

The coil in position AB, in figure 2, encloses the maximum amount of flux. The enclosed flux decreases as the coil moves toward position CD and becomes zero at CD, since the plane of the coil is parallel to the magnetic field. Then the enclosed flux increases in the opposite direction, reaching a negative maximum at BA and diminishing again to zero at DC. The flux reverses and increases again in the original direction to reach a maximum at AB.

Although the flux is maximum at positions AB and BA and zero at positions CD and DC, the induced EMF will be maximum at positions CD and DC and zero at positions AB and BA. This is true because the EMF depends upon the rate of change of flux or rate of cutting flux lines and not upon the quantity enclosed.

My apologies to everyone if this seems to be getting off topic, but I am getting close to building both versions of Syair's generator and I think it is pertinent to nail down this concept.

Regards

Cadman

But of course We are (both) seeing this process in two 'different perspectives'...Watch:

[IMG][/IMG]

1- I am referring to FIG 2...and You are referring to FIG 1...

My friend, they are apart by 180º, but still same principles apply...

On your FIG 1 (the exact same as the one you have shown above) The Induced Coil is Rotating Within/Enclosed by N-S Magnetic Field.

On ALL my examples prior, I am basing it on FIG 2 example, where Induced Coil(s) are Outside and Static, while Inductor or Magnetic Field is Rotary...and I have chosen this Model, just because it is the most common one seeing on most of AC Generator Heads...whether they are Brush or Brushless types.

As well as it is the Generator Head chosen on this Thread to be modified.

The purpose of the Iron Elements rotating...is to make our Inductor Coils Static (not the Induced, but the Exciting Magnetic Field) ...then let the iron be the "Transmitter and switcher" of the Flux entering the Induced Cores.


Everything written on your quoted text above, (according to the way you understand it) related to FIG 1, is completely true, and I agree with it, as they are the 'Basics' to start understanding Induction...NOW...take another look at FIG 2...And tell me:

Isn't it the same exact point of Max Induction to both FIG 1 & 2?

Except that in FIG 2 We have a split Coil into AB and A1B1...But they are continuous, in series or however you want to call them, look at it like a split Coil.

Now, related to "seeing" eight coils instead of one single split in Eight parts...all that is gonna do...is make it even more complicated to understand it...that is how I see it.

Related to Max Induction position as FIG 1 and FIG 2...that is correct, those are the 'Basics', the Fundamentals to start learning from simple, easy examples... BUT, in reality is NOT like that...in a Generator Head, we have OVERLAPPED several coils (Eight in my 3K Gen example)split in Two Groups (if it is a Two Pole Inductor/Exciter)...Therefore, the Max Induction is NOT a Specific Position BUT a whole Sweeping Angle of those Eight Total, Overlapped Coils.


Hope am not confusing you more...and all this is , I believe is 'related'... if many here are to be starting to build a Generator from scratch...or making your own generating coils in some Model testing.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[dragon]

The 4th build is a pincore 120/240 3kw. I didn't have any silicon handy so I made the director plates from a substandard 1008 steel sheet and electrically isolated them using HV 2mil tape. I knew they wouldn't perform as well as silicon but I figured it was good enough for a test and the assembly could be altered in the future.

The first picture shows the field of the original next to the drum assembly I made up to replace it.

Second one shows the drum installed.

Initial tests gave me around 42 volts at just under 2 amps which isn't to terrible considering the steel used. I measured the gauss being transfered into the core and it was quite low, reading around 550 gauss - not even equal to a good ceramic magnet - pretty poor. Lots of room for improvement.

Just as my 3rd build with the 6 pole the Lenz forces are completely redirected into the solid central hub and have no effect on the input so I know I'm heading in the right direction on the upgrade of this build. Calculating the rpm/Hz at the beginning it should have come in at around 1200 rpm but it actually reaches 60hz at 923 which I find a bit puzzling. Also it does output a perfect sine and should as long as the groupings are correct.

This one has 6 poles in the center with 2 rotating directors - 3 poles per sector this helps activate the field power coils which will be used elsewhere. I found you can use as many central poles as you want ( geometry allowing ) as long as they are odd groupings with the least amount being 2. So 3, 5, 7 etc. This one has a 5" hole and is about 3.25" deep so there isn't much room to pack all this stuff in.

Back to the shop to modify a drum.... fun stuff !!!

[Dog-One]

Just as my 3rd build with the 6 pole the Lenz forces are completely redirected into the solid central hub and have no effect on the input so I know I'm heading in the right direction on the upgrade of this build.

Okay dragon, I'm convinced. Great work by the way.

Off to the bench...

[ketone]

Great Work Dragon!