Topic: The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )

[machinealive]

Hey jimboot

I guess I wasn't that clear in the video.

On the end plates are the magnets. Then a 2 " rotor with slugs in it. Then I will have 1" diameter slugs in another endplate, which I will secure with an aluminum pipe. So I will have about 3 1/2 " of length on a 1" diameter slugs ( 6 in total). There won't be a lot of room, but I think it will work.
I am about 10 hrs away from starting the wind. Then it will be clear.

Hey dragon, what if the generator is wound bifilar, then we could bias one coil, to counter magnet, until motor starts, or use the bemf from the motor to bias the generator. Just a thought.

[dragon]

Hi Machinealive, nice build so far. I'm not sure how much you could offset the coging but anything is worth a try at this point. I've gone through and completely reworked the central hub and am still a few days away from finishing it... I've set the magnets at a .1" skew so there can never be a complete lock and it allows a much smoother transition. Unfortunately you end up with some slight fringing as they transition from one pole to the other but you still end up with 95% of the flux being transferred to the director poles.

Another thing I found disturbing... Spent 2 days cutting and testing different materials to find the best possible way to transfer flux from magnet to stator. As a secondary transfer device ( director poles ) between 2 airgaps I found that laminates are really poor. They work fine when used to transfer directly through a single airgap, such as an electromagnet... but as a secondary element with 2 airgaps they tend to confine the flux. The best transfer tests were through a solid mass - totally against conventional rules... so a new plan had to come in to play to curb any eddy currents in a solid mass by shaping the directors and using less material. Anyway, it should remove the "cog" and turn it into more of a lower constant force or magnetic drag... We'll see if my efforts are in vain in a few days I guess...

I also went with a completely different layout which triples the magnetic surface area ( from my last build ) yet is still less than the original rotor. This one will have 8 director poles and 14 magnets to continuously pulse the 2 pole alternator. All the tests I've done have shown that this still follows all the same rules of a conventional alternator ( output formula's etc ), the only difference is in the way we switch poles and how well the magnetic flux is being directed.

[machinealive]

Hi dragon

That's interesting in regards to laminates verses solid directors. I was only planning solid directors, as that was in original patent, so that's good for my build. Also, the original patent also looks like there was some shaping of the poles, reduced. In my build the magnets are 1", then the directors will be 3/4", then the coils will be wound on 1" slugs. So, I will also be concentrating the flux through the directors.

Thanks for heads up.

[Ufopolitics]

Overlapping Directors...

Hi Machinealive, nice build so far. I'm not sure how much you could offset the coging but anything is worth a try at this point. I've gone through and completely reworked the central hub and am still a few days away from finishing it... I've set the magnets at a .1" skew so there can never be a complete lock and it allows a much smoother transition. Unfortunately you end up with some slight fringing as they transition from one pole to the other but you still end up with 95% of the flux being transferred to the director poles.

Another thing I found disturbing... Spent 2 days cutting and testing different materials to find the best possible way to transfer flux from magnet to stator. As a secondary transfer device ( director poles ) between 2 airgaps I found that laminates are really poor. They work fine when used to transfer directly through a single airgap, such as an electromagnet... but as a secondary element with 2 airgaps they tend to confine the flux. The best transfer tests were through a solid mass - totally against conventional rules... so a new plan had to come in to play to curb any eddy currents in a solid mass by shaping the directors and using less material. Anyway, it should remove the "cog" and turn it into more of a lower constant force or magnetic drag... We'll see if my efforts are in vain in a few days I guess...

I also went with a completely different layout which triples the magnetic surface area ( from my last build ) yet is still less than the original rotor. This one will have 8 director poles and 14 magnets to continuously pulse the 2 pole alternator. All the tests I've done have shown that this still follows all the same rules of a conventional alternator ( output formula's etc ), the only difference is in the way we switch poles and how well the magnetic flux is being directed.

Hello Dragon, hello to all, hello Machine, is great to have you here also joining this build!

I will share this Tip that may help some that are going to, or are building this Generator Concept...

I've been working on a different model, different type of structure...however, I also had some cogging issues and I resolved it (at least a great percentage) by "overlapping" the iron core segments...or as you call them 'directors'...take a look:

[IMG][/IMG]

Like I wrote before...my set up is completely different...so I adapted same concept of overlapping to this Patent, Design/ Concept on this Thread.

Aluminum or a non ferrous, material MUST be used between overlapped layers as the 'Spacers' shown here...also, ALL Stainless steel bolts...this way the flux circuit will not close between each Iron segment.

IMO iron does not 'recognize' magnetic polarity as fast as two magnets or magnetic sources do (electromagnets) facing each others...however, cogging is due to the 'jump' between two pieces of iron and two magnets or even just one magnet...along same or parallel paths...and the smaller the iron gap between the 'TRANSITION' the lesser the cogging..(and I am not talking about the AIR gaps but between two directors spacing)

Please note that the 'Main Iron Mass" of each segment is still same circumference as for each magnet(s).

And I also found out that solid steel (Iron) transmit much better the flux in this type of design than laminated steel...but, again, related to my other build, I have not done this in a bigger scale yet..


Regards to All and Happy New Year!


Ufopolitics

[jtanguay]

The direction of the laminated steel will probably make a big difference too.

Has anyone tried to obtain one of those generators? I've been so curious as to how difficult it would be to grab one.

I'm also curious as to how one would go about sending in CAD drawings for various parts and having them machined. If the complete end cost wouldn't be too bad I'd be down for investing in this endeavour.

Now to just get my hands on those CAD drawings... or start from scratch with one of those generators and re-engineer from the drawings.

I think there is a lot more to this device such as geometry and size. If it isn't just right, then it won't run correctly, or be better suited to different voltages/frequencies or even cancel out the effect.

edit: I had something ship from china - approx. 28kg - cost around $250 just to ship. The smallest 2kW generator is still 65kg. I find it hard to believe but ok...

[dragon]

I guess it depends on where your located, I've seen them on ebay for a reasonable cost. I have an ST-5 that I purchased many years ago connected to an old Lister diesel as a back up.

I think any generator can be used, the ST's have an advantage of being quite large so there is much more room to work with internally. The draw back is they are very very heavy.

[RAMSET]

some may not be aware, this is also being discussed over here
The new generator no effect counter B. EMF part 2 ( Selfrunning )

can be ruff to view at times [sorta like the battle trenches]
but I find it inspirational in a way...

thanks for all you do and share here,truly inspiring to see.

Chet

[gotoluc]

Small update

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5TkAq9DJPY

[jimboot]

Hi Machinealive, nice build so far. I'm not sure how much you could offset the coging but anything is worth a try at this point. I've gone through and completely reworked the central hub and am still a few days away from finishing it... I've set the magnets at a .1" skew so there can never be a complete lock and it allows a much smoother transition. Unfortunately you end up with some slight fringing as they transition from one pole to the other but you still end up with 95% of the flux being transferred to the director poles.

Another thing I found disturbing... Spent 2 days cutting and testing different materials to find the best possible way to transfer flux from magnet to stator. As a secondary transfer device ( director poles ) between 2 airgaps I found that laminates are really poor. They work fine when used to transfer directly through a single airgap, such as an electromagnet... but as a secondary element with 2 airgaps they tend to confine the flux. The best transfer tests were through a solid mass - totally against conventional rules... so a new plan had to come in to play to curb any eddy currents in a solid mass by shaping the directors and using less material. Anyway, it should remove the "cog" and turn it into more of a lower constant force or magnetic drag... We'll see if my efforts are in vain in a few days I guess...

I also went with a completely different layout which triples the magnetic surface area ( from my last build ) yet is still less than the original rotor. This one will have 8 director poles and 14 magnets to continuously pulse the 2 pole alternator. All the tests I've done have shown that this still follows all the same rules of a conventional alternator ( output formula's etc ), the only difference is in the way we switch poles and how well the magnetic flux is being directed.

What will you be using instead of laminates? Jame w German used soft iron as did syair. I've got the prime mover down to 5watt consumption. Now I'm trying to work out the best coil config. Got laminates coming out of wazoo atm. Thanks for the update an info. Much appreciated.

[dragon]

Jimboot, I made the new directors out of a section of heavy 4" iron pipe. Machining it to size then cutting the pipe into equal arc segments.

[jimboot]

Jimboot, I made the new directors out of a section of heavy 4" iron pipe. Machining it to size then cutting the pipe into equal arc segments.

Sweet! What do you think about cast iron? Worth a try? I'm going to rip my rig down to three mags and two iron. I Think I'll get more rpms and better output as the irons will should go neutral before flipping.

[dragon]

Sweet! What do you think about cast iron? Worth a try? I'm going to rip my rig down to three mags and two iron. I Think I'll get more rpms and better output as the irons will should go neutral before flipping.

Some iron is really poor in transferring and/or switching, the right kind will perform nicely.... Here is a chart covering the basic iron that's typically available... The ones with low permeability aren't so good - 65-45-12 or 60-40-18 durabar might be the best choice. Like a lot of others, my budget is small and I have to work with what I have, my choices are limited and I've chosen the best of what I've got on hand - not optimal but good enough for testing a few configurations. If things work well then it would be wise to invest in some exotics like nickel/iron or cobalt/iron, there may be some silicons out there that would be better suited for this type of use.

[machinealive]

Hey UFO

You've got a great concept/model, although I haven't shown the motor, inside my machine, I know your gonna love it.

I finished the rotor with the slugs, turned out nice, I'll be finishing the other end, gen coils, hopefully tonight, but it is more difficult, might take several days.

[Cadman]

Hi everyone, happy holidays to you.

I'd like to share my progress with you too...

After a lot of flux modeling with different designs I have settled on a combination between a 4 pole and a 2 pole generator. It's odd looking but it has about a 40% higher flux transfer through the rotor than the straight 4 pole setup, and it has over 250 degrees of continuous magnetic sweep. Plus there are only 2 cog points per revolution that persist for slightly over 10 degrees of rotation. Output is intended to be rectified DC so I am not overly concerned with the wave form.

Best results were obtained where all of the steel, including the armature center, is non-oriented with a permeability of at least 7000. Keep in mind this applies to my design using N52 neos with a permeability of 3.07 and rated at 13200 gauss each as the magnetic source.







The issue of lenz has been pretty contentious, on some forums anyway, so I modeled the difference between an iron rotor piece and a permanent magnet rotor piece passing by a winding carrying 5 amps of current. There is a marked difference between the two, and you can draw your own conclusions.

Magnet rotor Iron rotor


Regards to all

[dragon]

Beautiful Cadman !!! the comparison on the last 2... very informative ! I believe you have a winner there.