A1Mo-Gen: Tesla's Gift "The Electromagnetic Reactor"

[Midaztouch]

I chose not to rush to an opinion on that diagram, hoping that Sam would confirm his actual brush width. Until Sam has confirmed that, any comment is speculation.

Happy Hunting

mark

That 10 pole is his baby. He has been working with that motor for over a year.

I asked him the size to clear any doubts.

His motor was built well by an OEM. The brushes look to be around the same size as a commutator segment.

Send him a PM.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[HuntingRoss]

I have found one of my motors to output more voltage than the PSU input. I still have no satisfactory explanation for this. When I attach an inductive load to the generator output about 80% of that load is added to the motor input load. In real terms there is no benefit in doing this that I can see at the moment.

Oops, wait a minute. If you are saying you had higher that supply voltage on the generator coil only it might be a different situation. It's possible to have a generated transformer voltage effect through the laminations as well as a small EMF from collapsing coils. You might need a scope the see this but the inevitable might be that that a load of any kind across the generator will show up as a proportional increase in current on the input. Of course you would have to factor in losses to have it all make sense right?

Yes, it was the second bit...the voltage out is more than the voltage in. But when that is connected to a load approximately 80% of that load is added to the motor input load. It's like putting your thumb over an open hose causing back pressure. This is why I'm thinking the best use for generator output is only at times of throttle back, braking and downhill cruising.

Once I have settled on a favoured design I will focus on differing load types to see if the output is better harvested via batteries or super-caps. My initial thoughts are, to use the generator output in a 'regenerative' sense and thereby avoid the additional load on the motor battery resource. Like you, doing both at once appears to be very problematic at these initial stages of research.
Mark there's a lot of experiments on the net about battery charging using capacitors and dump circuits. The trick is to be able to charge the capacitors without it being a current drain on the generator circuit. I could spend a lot of time talking about that but my experience is mostly with pulse or brushless setups

I would certainly appreciate an appetiser on your thoughts for me to mull over.

As an example. I have a motor which is generating 28% more torque at 110% more rpm for 90% more power consumption. Through road and bench testing I hope to determine if throttle control can achieve parity on the torque which in theory reduces the additional power consumption to 51% with an undetermined drop in rpm. Eventually coupled to generative harvesting of the output leads, this may be an increased radius of operation on the batteries. In Theory !!
Hey Mark, that's a mouth full. It sounds like everything you said is a positive step in the right direction even though I don't fully understand. The power consumption statement seems to need some qualification but I'll look forward to seeing how you test the theory.

On a prony test the motor produces 28% more torque at 90% more power input. If I (in theory) throttle back to achieve equal torque output, the motor should consume 51% more power. That's pretty hard to replicate on a prony test, but extrapolation over a series of different test loads should give me an idea. The balance of whether this is a good thing or not is determined by field testing to see if the motor performs as expected AND to see if the generated output actually increases battery range...making the 51% sacrifice worthwhile. Or to put it another way...the output would have to exceed 51%.

Happy Hunting

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Mark Ross

Lately, you have been working hard and quite vocal on correct angles. Give your educated opinion about my statement on the above image.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

I chose not to rush to an opinion on that diagram, hoping that Sam would confirm his actual brush width. Until Sam has confirmed that, any comment is speculation.

Happy Hunting

mark

[grounded]

I took the motor apart last week to rebuild it. The first build was just a test to prove it has torque and RPMs. I made the motor and made this thread at the same time... When I made the motor I was thinking about drag racing. Then I changed my mind to be more practical.

I orded new tires. When the tires arrive, I will take the bike over to the shop to have the sprockets and chain aligned and tires put on at the same time... But I still want to try for the 24v record some day.

I'm waiting for John to explain his turtle.
Then I will order wire.

Here is the OEM specs:
Permanent Magnet Motor - 56 Frame

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Grounded, what's your back round with motors?

- i wouldnt bother going after any records. theres been huge competition from all areas of the world for that sorta thing, both gas and electric, and youll probably have to dedicate most of your life getting anywhere near the top. stick with the practical everyday. thats where its at in my opinion, and more usefull for the rest of the world

- when you re-wind your motor, pull the wires tighter than before, so you dont have any ping out like you did a couple weeks back. not too tight, so you damage the enamel, but tight enough to stay put, and it might even give you extra space for a few more turns too.

- which model numbers yours ?

Model Amps Encl HP Hz Outpt Shft Rotate RPM Volts Wt.

P56MD003 103 Open-GD 4.00 DC .750 ccw 2500 36 39
P56MD020 65 Open-GD 2.50 DC .750 Both 2000 36 39
P56SD004 42 Open-GD 1.60 DC .750 Both 1850 36 33
P56MD019 40 Open-GD 1.50 DC .750 Both 1150 36 41
P56SD112 78 Open-GD 2.00 DC .750 Both 2000 24 34
P56SD113 41 Open-GD 1.00 DC .750 Both 1070 24 35
P56SD123 54 Open-GD 1.30 DC .750 Both 1750 24 34
P56SD704 70 Open-GD 1.60 DC .750 Both 3000 24 30
P56SJ800 33 Open-GD 0.75 DC .625 Both 1000 24 21
P56SD095 78 TENV 1.00 DC .625 Both 1800 12 37
P56SD095 78 TENV 1.00 DC .625 Both 1800 12 37

- my background with motors is next to nothing.
ive done mechanical engineering for several years, but never messed with motors untill recently.
i started building a window motor, which is not yet finished, and recently i made a 5 pole assymetric as a trial, to test.

i have a vision of a car, that can pull its own weight, whilst powering itself.
im still very early into everything, and havent learnt nearly enough to take me that far, but im working on it.
money is holding me back quite a bit, as i cant afford the parts to continue my builds.

car-wise im not sure which motor will be best. what do you think ?
an induction motor might be better, with less drag. the oval shaped coils do suck alot of juice tho.
what are the similar type motors called, that have the same outer windings, but going round 360 degrees ?

[DadHav]

Hi John

I have no doubt in the wisdom and experience of what you say mirrored in my own experiences too.

I have found one of my motors to output more voltage than the PSU input. I still have no satisfactory explanation for this. When I attach an inductive load to the generator output about 80% of that load is added to the motor input load. In real terms there is no benefit in doing this that I can see at the moment.

As a result of this I am focusing on the maximising torque against power input and I am steadily moving towards a better design and I am number crunching in a spreadsheet to see where the advantages are across a number of competing wind designs.

Once I have settled on a favoured design I will focus on differing load types to see if the output is better harvested via batteries or super-caps. My initial thoughts are, to use the generator output in a 'regenerative' sense and thereby avoid the additional load on the motor battery resource. Like you, doing both at once appears to be very problematic at these initial stages of research.

As an example. I have a motor which is generating 28% more torque at 110% more rpm for 90% more power consumption. Through road and bench testing I hope to determine if throttle control can achieve parity on the torque which in theory reduces the additional power consumption to 51% with an undetermined drop in rpm. Eventually coupled to generative harvesting of the output leads, this may be an increased radius of operation on the batteries. In Theory !!

Happy Hunting

mark

I have no doubt in the wisdom and experience of what you say mirrored in my own experiences too.
Mark most of the things I say aren't making me happy. I know how hard you and the other guys are working here. Even Midas wants to do well but he just needs an exorcism or something. Just kidding Richie! Well that isn't fair, Maybe Raul too. Ha, just kidding Raul! I know it wouldn't do well for me to say this has all gone to far but I wish everyone could get back to business and bring something positive out of this effort. I don't mean to play devils advocate but if I can make someone awarepeople are missing the things that they should be thinking about or found in their prior knowledge searches, then I'll take it on the chin and mention it. There's nothing more valuable than finding someone with similar interests and usable knowledge on the subject.[/COLOR]

I have found one of my motors to output more voltage than the PSU input. I still have no satisfactory explanation for this. When I attach an inductive load to the generator output about 80% of that load is added to the motor input load. In real terms there is no benefit in doing this that I can see at the moment.
Exactly Mark. If you are referring to the connecting the generator coil in series to an already running prime mover this is what you might expect. You already have the battery voltage over the motor coils and commutator then you add the generator voltage in series to the battery voltage. No one seemed to understand that and this is what lead to me being called s**t for brains in the earlier posts. LOL. Do you remember hearing "Over Unity Galore" I wish I'd have never read it but I'm here now and will speak freely because I know the mediators are watching and I would love to hear their real opinion of this mess.
Oops, wait a minute. If you are saying you had higher that supply voltage on the generator coil only it might be a different situation. It's possible to have a generated transformer voltage effect through the laminations as well as a small EMF from collapsing coils. You might need a scope the see this but the inevitable might be that that a load of any kind across the generator will show up as a proportional increase in current on the input. Of course you would have to factor in losses to have it all make sense right?

As a result of this I am focusing on the maximising torque against power input and I am steadily moving towards a better design and I am number crunching in a spreadsheet to see where the advantages are across a number of competing wind designs.
You got me on this one Mark, UFO is extremely knowledgeable in this area of expertise and I see people trying many things that he probably would put a flag on but that's what research is about. I always say good luck and someone will stumble on something that will defeat Lenz law effects or draw in energy from somewhere or find an electro biological relationship or some darn thing to change physics as we know it.[/COLOR]

Once I have settled on a favoured design I will focus on differing load types to see if the output is better harvested via batteries or super-caps. My initial thoughts are, to use the generator output in a 'regenerative' sense and thereby avoid the additional load on the motor battery resource. Like you, doing both at once appears to be very problematic at these initial stages of research.
Mark there's a lot of experiments on the net about battery charging using capacitors and dump circuits. The trick is to be able to charge the capacitors without it being a current drain on the generator circuit. I could spend a lot of time talking about that but my experience is mostly with pulse or brushless setups[/COLOR]

As an example. I have a motor which is generating 28% more torque at 110% more rpm for 90% more power consumption. Through road and bench testing I hope to determine if throttle control can achieve parity on the torque which in theory reduces the additional power consumption to 51% with an undetermined drop in rpm. Eventually coupled to generative harvesting of the output leads, this may be an increased radius of operation on the batteries. In Theory !!
Hey Mark, that's a mouth full. It sounds like everything you said is a positive step in the right direction even though I don't fully understand. The power consumption statement seems to need some qualification but I'll look forward to seeing how you test the theory. Can't think constructively anymore tonight. I just read posts on Raul's forum and wrote this after that. I also posted something here before reading on the other forum. It's a shame how things can be sometime.
Catch you some other time.
As usual my opinions only. corrections welcome.
John

[HuntingRoss]

Hi John

I have no doubt in the wisdom and experience of what you say mirrored in my own experiences too.

I have found one of my motors to output more voltage than the PSU input. I still have no satisfactory explanation for this. When I attach an inductive load to the generator output about 80% of that load is added to the motor input load. In real terms there is no benefit in doing this that I can see at the moment.

As a result of this I am focusing on the maximising torque against power input and I am steadily moving towards a better design and I am number crunching in a spreadsheet to see where the advantages are across a number of competing wind designs.

Once I have settled on a favoured design I will focus on differing load types to see if the output is better harvested via batteries or super-caps. My initial thoughts are, to use the generator output in a 'regenerative' sense and thereby avoid the additional load on the motor battery resource. Like you, doing both at once appears to be very problematic at these initial stages of research.

As an example. I have a motor which is generating 28% more torque at 110% more rpm for 90% more power consumption. Through road and bench testing I hope to determine if throttle control can achieve parity on the torque which in theory reduces the additional power consumption to 51% with an undetermined drop in rpm. Eventually coupled to generative harvesting of the output leads, this may be an increased radius of operation on the batteries. In Theory !!

Happy Hunting

mark

[Midaztouch]

John,

Your always awesome and thorough


Keep it Clean and Green!

Midaz

[DadHav]

John


You have been right so many times... I'm afraid to bet against you... Your making me nervous!

Why did you say, you would bet on the TURTLE in this race?

I've decide to rebuild the A1MoGen from the ground up perfectly before I put it in my electric motorcycle...
I was just about to order wire... but YOU came to mind with your turtle before I pressed send.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

I wanted to try some drag racing but being able to travel round trip for an hour is what is really needed.
A simple case of "Wants vs Needs"

Richie, I saw the video you posted today and have to say it's refreshing to see your candor. Turtle & the Hare? For me it goes back over 60 years. At around 10 or 11 years old I started building rubber band powered model airplanes. I wanted the planes to stay in the air longer so I put extra strands on to get more power. Wow I almost tore the wings off one of my little airplanes but it fell from the air before it could make a circle to come back to me. I changed back to the regular setup and guess what? the plane made two complete circles and landed almost in front of me. We all know with the thinner motor I could get far more turns on the rubber band motor to generate power for a longer time. I should say less RPM's for more time. Anyway for years if a person wanted a fast electric motor he would use heavy wire and less turns and if he wanted slow and strong he would use thin wire with many more turns. Saying again FAST might get you to the finish line (Rabbit) faster but will run out of energy before returning to the starting line. Oh oh, here comes the turtle, slower but with energy to spare. Unless I've missed something for years people here have ignored the fact that you pay for speed with current draw. This commodity is somehow always missing from the testing. Let me ask a question that might or might not make any sense: I'll ask it of myself for that matter. If I wanted to make a motor to win a race or perform a task, would I put a generator coil on it? Why would I want to do that? If, for an example, I have a 12 notch armature I will have only 6 notches or legs pushing or pulling from the field magnets instead of all 12. I can't use the generator section for anything yet because I've seen that if I run anything at all with it including trying to recycle energy, that it loads the motor down and only draws more current. I can put the generator coils in parallel with the motor and still likely have higher current draw. (Rabbit) I can also put the generator coils in series with the motor coils. What would I have? Twice the wire, twice the resistance, all 12 legs of the armature working to provide power and torque, and I use half the current from the batteries. That sounds like a perfect example of the TURTLE. In my simple tests the result made a motor almost as good as the OEM. Richie I've seen very few convincing videos of regenerative acceleration. The two I have of my own aren't possible for me to explain so I avoid talking about them most of the time. I's far from being demonstrated on these two forums at this time. Capturing energy from collapsing coils? How can I do that? I've learned from everyone who has had successful radiant energy experiments that I need a lot of wire, fast cut off on the coils, constant and specific magnet passes etc. There are other things going on in the laminations that are hard to figure out and contend with. Eddy currents, transformer effects, radiant maybe. It's gonna take a lot of work to find a way to combine these elements and use them usefully. I could go on for hours explaining my personal feelings about why I stopped building these brushed motors. Anyway Midas, I'm pretty sure most people never bothered to read this far but I appreciate it if they did. I will still hope that one of you guys that have the guts to hang in there this far comes up with something that makes all the time people spent here worth while.
As always these are only my opinions and will gladly except corrections.
John

[Midaztouch]

are you just waiting for that gear sprocket before you can test drive it ?

curious to see how it goes, and how long the juice lasts.

whats the original specs of the motor ?

I took the motor apart last week to rebuild it. The first build was just a test to prove it has torque and RPMs. I made the motor and made this thread at the same time... When I made the motor I was thinking about drag racing. Then I changed my mind to be more practical.

I orded new tires. When the tires arrive, I will take the bike over to the shop to have the sprockets and chain aligned and tires put on at the same time... But I still want to try for the 24v record some day.

I'm waiting for John to explain his turtle.
Then I will order wire.

Here is the OEM specs:
Permanent Magnet Motor - 56 Frame

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Grounded, what's your back round with motors?

[grounded]

are you just waiting for that gear sprocket before you can test drive it ?

curious to see how it goes, and how long the juice lasts.

whats the original specs of the motor ?

[Midaztouch]

Love it UFO!

[IMG][/IMG

UFO you made a great screen shot! That's exactly how I felt about your designs! Perfect!

[VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iaE1yKZP20Y[/VIDEO]

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Facts about asymetric motors is what everyone is watching for.


The pair and group wind asymetric motors are NOT game changers!... Nothing special here.
IMO, There is no need to replicate these motor designs if you can't have regenerative acceleration/0 magnetic drag.

Midaz

[Midaztouch]

#2[QUOTE]

Hello my friend Midaz, Hello to All,


Ok,Midaz, after we exchange some mails, I think I've got your idea and points.

This concept will work, no doubt about that, and I believe you are right about concentrating the magnetic field within a single coil will 'compact' (let me say it this way) the strength in lesser poles and will not split coils in two. This splitting deviates the bisector angle,or it becomes two bisectors...either one, and yes, it will weaken it somehow. I was going by flux transfer at common shared coils from one to the other...

I like to try this in a Radio Shack first...and see what it does.

If I got it right, the CAD Diagram should look like below:

The only thing that must be done for it to be timed properly, would be to move for a short angle the brushes towards the rotation sense...like 5 to 10 degrees in order to avoid bisector engagement between stators and coil being fired.

Either move the brushes...or rotate both commutators to proper angle (counter to rotation) when assembling rotor, then have brushes at exact alignment to stators center.

So, yeah, let's give it a try friend...we never know, we are all experimenting here....and this is a 'Democracy' here in the Open Source spirit...

I like the simplicity of this configuration...and like I said...You are right, it makes sense...You may have seen what I have missed prior when dissecting the three poles and starting to walk into the All North concept.

For comparison purposes I will wind the RS Motor this way with the same number of turns and gauge, as I did when I made the video where N-S Pairs versus All North Pairs was made, differentiating from the all N Pairs that I would try to fit the two coils total turns into just one coil and two poles.

I will try to "squeeze" this new project in front of my BIG pile of pending work...


Regards Friend


Ufopolitics

"This concept will work, no doubt about that, and I believe you are right about concentrating the magnetic field within a single coil will 'compact' (let me say it this way) the strength in lesser poles and will not split coils in two. This splitting deviates the bisector angle,or it becomes two bisectors...either one, and yes, it will weaken it somehow. I was going by flux transfer at common shared coils from one to the other..."


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz
Not only did UFO agree with me, ALL the original "TEAM" members that I spoke to agreed also.

[Midaztouch]

I built your single coil motor months ago and it remains the most power hungry space heater I have ever built in my short motor career...@ 7.0A @ 5v @ 1795 rpm 'no load'.

So I'm not surprised at your recent 'test' results indicating huge 'no load' power consumption.

By way of comparison. The motor I built and prony tested last night, meaning under heavy load, was 6.76A @ 8.97v @ 959 rpm. No load figures, 0.4A @ 10.26v @ 2556 rpm. The motor hardly warmed up during the entire test.

Happy Hunting

mark

Ohms spec for asymetric motors: 1.2 - 1.4ohms = No Heat... I was seeing what I could get a way with this first build for the future!

Now use the same wire length that you have for the motor you had pony tested last night(CAD!?) and make a Singular Coil hybrid design. You'll have at least 25% more torque, around the same RPMs and once you find a "Sweet Spot", you might have the same amp draw. Use 5poles for the Singular Coil hybrid design.

Singular Coils work for every. Including your work.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

I would have told you earlier but you were acting up. You never would have found the ohms specs because you still haven't read the whole thread... Now YOU come correct

Plus it's spring time... Time to go outside and play with the kids on the scooter.

[Midaztouch]

John


You have been right so many times... I'm afraid to bet against you... Your making me nervous!

Why did you say, you would bet on the TURTLE in this race?

I've decide to rebuild the A1MoGen from the ground up perfectly before I put it in my electric motorcycle...
I was just about to order wire... but YOU came to mind with your turtle before I pressed send.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

I wanted to try some drag racing but being able to travel round trip for an hour is what is really needed.
A simple case of "Wants vs Needs"

[HuntingRoss]

Please read the bottom on post 101, first.

Last edited by Midaztouch; 04-24-2015 at 01:10 AM.

OK. Did that ?

But that, of course, doesn't answer the serious question of how to replicate the A1MG because there are no schematics and no test results to bench mark against.

I think I'm the first and only to report on a build that I believe replicates your A1MG and found it to be a very efficient heater unit. Not strong and not particularly fast and a 'gas' guzzler, which your recent posts is starting to confirm.

I did ask for spec data so I could correct any errors so that I may reappraise the build but nothing was offered in return. As far as I'm aware the build is a fair replication of what is on offer here.

Happy Hunting

mark