Scaling up Voltage from Tate Power Module

[mikrovolt]

Bob,
If you build a pulse forming network what was said about thermal measurements observation and how other measurements can be interpreted is logical and clear.
But without the PFN you are not ready for the other components that is in Eric's world come back and talk to me when you understand that. I am not a mathematician telling student to go do your homework first but I will give you help on what the lesson plan I left many details on this forum and the pertinent history. I appreciate your concern, I have thanked Sputins as his work in replicating the details of yet another component is excellent.

[Bob Smith]

Bob,
If you build a pulse forming network what was said about thermal measurements observation and how other measurements can be interpreted is logical and clear.
But without the PFN you are not ready for the other components that is in Eric's world come back and talk to me when you understand that. I am not a mathematician telling student to go do your homework first but I will give you help on what the lesson plan I left many details on this forum and the pertinent history. I appreciate your concern, I have thanked Sputins as his work in replicating the details of yet another component is excellent.

Thankyou Mikrovolt for taking the time to point this out. Believe it or not, I wholeheartedly agree with you. This is why I mentioned the idea of something like a Joule Thief early on - precisely to generate a needed oscillation for voltage amplification, stepping up and down, etc. I don't know if this is the kind of pulse you're referring to. I will have a look through your posts in other threads as per your "lesson plan."
Much appreciated.
Bob

[mikrovolt]

In a toroid ring the energy travels back and forth on the two hemispheres.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loTQBKzkN_I

These are the terms that come to mind.
cross point
L-wave translators
semi isotopic
voltage multipliers
dielectric coupling

[Duncan]

size doesn't matter .. or does it?

As fzzy points out the transverse wave uses heat … ergo energy … of course we don’t want to ! Our maths these days is based on infinitesimal calculus that in turn is founded on Euclid and Pythagoras
is Pythagoras a theory or a proof ? .. is what isn't a sin a cosine and visa versa ? How big is an infinite amount of the infinitesimal ? The calculator reassuringly say's 1 or 0 and not “I don’t know”
a rash assumption it seems ..

There is no absolute scale of size in the Universe, for it is boundless towards the great and also boundless towards the small.
Oliver Heaviside



yes I think your quite right Bob a mixing of frequencies --- oh that it were that simple , resonance is simple given something nice and stable like a nice coil and a good stable capacitor in a Lab what chance a battery with a constantly changing dielectric depending on charge and or load?
We each have our own mind formed picture of these waveforms and may quarrel till the cows come home …. In our minds they are real .. they have substance , occupy time and space really ?
Perhaps you can share with me my picture of what may be happening ….. The transverse wave is bound to use energy.. how ? (anyway just what we don’t want) The next question ….. how to remove the complex sin waves and all the harmonics which make up the transverse wave, (they interfere with each other and use energy) whilst leaving the the impulse wave to do magic ? In simple terms ..you must Give the frequencies you are mixing their own space so they cannot interfere with each other (and use energy)
please consider carefully the implications and possibilities of the sequence MJN is pointing at in this post … factor this into your heterodyne thoughts Bob

http://www.energeticforum.com/111774-post102.html

perhaps with help like that we may all yet be able to look at this picture and see the same thing.

I wonder if we could ask Alice ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl89g2SwMh4 when she's very small?

Kind regards Duncan

[mikrovolt]

Regarding the Dollard movie of yester year. Short summary
The lesson is by Dollard in the old movie. Any question how he arrived at this go ask Dollard even if some radar people helped him it showed it’s dielectric nature.
While it is possible that Tesla built one. I only know that the telegraph had something close to it during the Tesla era and that everything noisy was Tesla’s fault. That Wilhelm Cauer type F elliptical filter was designed around world war 2 and other types were used in radar.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.cGU&cad=rja

In this book is a picture of the type F filter on page 219 figure c.
It is similar to what Dollard used in videos that followed.
It is logical that the radar folks would understand lumped element transmission lines.
My research came from SLAC and I worked back to Cauer Foster but never got exact results so approximated and used simulation.

[Bob Smith]

In a toroid ring the energy travels back and forth on the two hemispheres.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loTQBKzkN_I

These are the terms that come to mind.
cross point
L-wave translators
semi isotopic
voltage multipliers
dielectric coupling

Interesting video.

Cross Point
I have come to understand this area in the context of magnet-coil generators, where the point of maximum induced potential is reached before the magnet gets half way across the coil, then decreases, flipping polarity at top dead center (TDC), and decreasing at coil's edge. Would it be fair to call the toroid's cross point its "dielectric plane"? It would seem consistent with what Ken Wheeler's been saying.
What would happen to the location of the dielectric plane if the inductor or toroid (or perhaps both) were oscillating at resonance? I'm thinking back to EPD's words I posted:

When you experiment with a resonating coil, you find that all your magnetism then appears at one end and all your dielectricity appears at the other end, and you have a difference(?) in these electrical discharges which occur off the end of this... which will occur back to the point at which they started from. And you can hook a radio frequency watt meter or amp meter or whatever you want here and there'll be actual initiation of very heavy flows of energy, all of which are reflected back to the coil, except that utilized by the load.

L Wave Translator
I understand L wave as a surface wave (which follows the longitudinal and seismic waves that precede it). Are you saying that the wave forms travelling around the toroid are similar to the L Wave? Not sure what you mean by a translator - like a pickup coil (perhaps a shorted series-wound bifilar, to ensure energy can be taken off without affecting the primary)?

Lunch is pretty much over for me, so I'm just going to paste some interesting quotes on dielectricity (ignore references to electrons and substitute "electrical charges")

Here's a thought. Tesla adamently claimed that using electromagnetic energy to do anything is completely wasteful and silly. He viewed EM more as a by-product -- a smaller component -- of the scalar waveform.

@
Eric Dollard has a presentation called "Transverse and Longitudinal Electric Waves" produced under the organization Borderlands Sciences. The video is available on youtube. In his video, he shows a book called "Electric Discharges, Waves, and Impulses and Other Transients." by Charles Steinmetz. The diagram shown in this book (which I have a copy of BTW) clearly indicates that any current traveling through a medium creates both a magnetic field and dielectric field. The lines of electrostatic force caused by voltage make up the dielectric field. In the beginning of this book, Steinmetz discusses transients and permanents. He defines a transient as any energy, variable, or mechanism in a circuit which is CHANGING. A permanent is an energy, variable, or mechanism which is in a constant unchanging state. After talking about this, Steinmetz then describes oscillatory patterns which usually occur due to transients. One such oscillation could be the transfer of energy back and forth between magnetic and dielectric fields.

You were saying that you don't fully understand why the spark won't jump in opposing direction and THEN be quenched afterward by the magnetic field. I'm going to propose this possible explanation: In order for any spark to begin at all, the dielectric field -- which contains stored energy -- must cause current to flow through the gap. However, if this transfer of energy from the dielectric were to occur, the energy would have to simultaneously transfer into a magnetic field around the current flow. Because the opposing magnetic field is so strong, no such event can occur. This can be viewed as a total suppression of transfer of energy between the coupled magnetic and dielectric fields.

Perhaps, you could view the electric field coupling sort of like the coupling of two magnetic fields in the coils of a transformer. It is the nature of the electric field that a transverse magnetic field and longitudinal dielectric field are always coupled. If you oppose one, you oppose the other simultaneously -- at least to some degree. What you've done here is force the total of energy storage to be contained only in the dielectric field because you have completely suppressed the magnetic counterpart. If the coupling between magnetic field and dielectric field weren't so strong, then the spark would be allowed to form before it was quenched -- as you had first thought.

Steinmetz isn't Tesla, and I'm neither one of them. But I'm looking at what Steinmetz said and offering another view. Also, keep in mind that my view is not necessarily in competition with your view. You are looking at the molecular level, while I am describing this from the field view. To understand my view, one must understand that any conductor ALWAYS has both a dielectric AND magnetic field around it -- you cannot escape that -- you can only effect which of the fields is stronger and how they are contained.

Eric Dollard and Peter Lindemann have pointed out that the dielectric field can cause what is called "electronic activity" in a conductor -- i.e. the presence of a dielectric field causes electrons to move. It is NOT the other way around. Bearing in mind that the Electric field has two components: magnetism and dielectricity, it may be erroneous to say that moving current induces magnetism.

What is very interesting is that Tom Bearden and some other physicists have pointed out that it is a theoretical possibility that you could create a 98% aluminum / 2% iron alloy and utilize an very fast switching mechanism and create a circuit in which ZERO current is allowed to move. Every single electron will be trapped and stay that way if you only hit it with a voltage for a brief time under said conditions. Of course, the applied voltage would still issue forth a vibration in the dielectric field. Yay!!

But if you look at things like this it still brings up a question. If you establish a permanent voltage gradient between two points on a circuit and current is allowed to flow permanently (we have no transients -- changing variables), then how are the dielectric and magnetic fields forming around the conductor? It is easy to understand the idea that a rapid closure and opening of a circuit causes a wave to issue forth and to cause shockwaves to emanate from the conductor. But what in the world is happening in the case of a permanent direct current? Is it perhaps that at this point we DO have to consider things from a molecular standpoint? The electron flow is not really a smooth flow at all, but rather billions of rapid collisions happening? Could we then consider that each transfer of energy from one subatomic colliding movement to the following is causing a dielectric and magnetic wave to issue forth? If that is the case, then direct current is nothing more than billions of individual vibrations which are actually happening randomly. This begins to bring the whole idea of energy waste to into perspective. Now we can see why oscillations and resonance create great efficiency. In a non-resonant direct current system we have 99.99999% waste.

This fellow has some nice posts on this page that summarize some important points about the function of dielectricity and its role in some of Tesla's setups.
Bob (back to lunch)

[mikrovolt]

Getting back to the PFN and how you can replicate the experiment in the video that you asked about.


type F elliptic filter.JPG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...UBKgnnc#t=1167

this is where I left off. The number of elements happy but embarrassed as I am I need help on quantitative. Thanks for asking about Dollard's work. I hope this makes sense regarding his early stage of development on L-wave exiter.

cauer PFN 1.85 Mhz.JPG

I changed to 1.94Mhz to get into experimental part of the 160M for Sputin's replication telluric mode.
The intended design for air capacitors made from 2 aluminum sheet 2.5 inches square.
When I simulated Dr.Green's tesla on 80M for TX mode with this design I was impressed.

I feel standard filter calculations will work because of how I am deriving this.
Summary of how I got these parameters:
I used the filter design and the virtual instruments intuitively adjusted values.
I hope this crude method is valuable and if there is value in PFN then math
formula can be made from this approximation.

[Bob Smith]

Mikrovolt
Thanks for cuing up the link to the EPD/Brown video. Brilliant! I love the analog "computer" of LMD waves. I see what you're doing, I think. I can't help but see a resemblance between the LMD analog computer and Tesla's hairpin circuit as well. I believe there was an igniter patent that seemed similar as well (can't remember the name). Will have to look at it more closely again tomorrow.
Regards,
Bob

[Duncan]

likewise microvolt ---- I had seen this borderlands video before but nice to have attention drawn to it again . kind regards Duncan

[Duncan]

thoughts ...

He he I'm enjoying watching Eric again 'through the ages' for me he is for me the most entertaining 'free energy' performer in the ring.
Still I guess we have to keep in mind he's also part of the free energy circus after all the world isn't full of Dollard or Bedeni generators easily made and powering homes … unfortunately.

However the forums are full of endless pages of the writings and video's started by our favourite diva's and they are very entertaining, but if you think the 'Dollygen' is just around the corner I beg to differ.
The free energy circus sells books , video's, and does shows.
It doesn’t have a big top or grease paint (but plenty of slime) we love it and luckily don't take each turn too seriously. There is of course an element of truth in each performance and a big part of the fun for we 'The punters' is trying to spot the magicians slight of hand .
Do you think they will show us the tricks and ruin the act and the show ?
Perhaps then you might also think Turkeys would vote for Christmas ?
Of course there is a rather more sinister aspect to”free energy” and its flagged up loud and clear in these few aged video's this being 1 of 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDPoZJNT1eM

So energy and particularly oil being the control weapon for the world wide American empire what chance an American blowing the gaff?
It would be rather like an Englishman ordering the sinking of the fleet at the height of the British empire and the government knowing his intention ..
Its not going to happen is it? and turkeys wont vote for Christmas either !
This doesn't mean there isn’t an element of truths in the acts and illusions there is, its a high-wire act the trick is to embroil the punters in mathematical and science gobbley gook … poor dogs enthusiastically chasing there own tails !

Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.
Nikola Tesla
We punters are of course encouraged by vested interests to funnel quickly into 'no relation to reality strata' (lets try to avoid that – shall we ?) ! Eric’s great , So is John B so are all the other bit acts, ..pages and endless pages on the lockridge device … Don Smith, Tariel or whatever …
How about we take the bits that are EASILY and DEMONSTRABLY repeatable . Mix that with very highly probable, witnessed , antenna systems (suggest Moray) and see if we can fill in the spaces … EASILY , then build
remember Nikki didn't have any transistors or thyratrons so why go there ? Radar ? Perhaps he had a type, but certainly not like that in this tome of a book!
The energy is there and like fresh water its free , like water there is as much on our planet as ever there was, not a penny weight more or less , after all where can it go?
A great part of the enjoyment of this forum is chewing the cud with guys some of who I have come to regard as friends whilst deciding what to build . That huge amounts of free energy is available is beyond doubt (even if I hadn’t seen it at work myself) still to duplicate it is as difficult as the sea lion act where the mammal balances the ball on the tip of its nose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTmKsQGqVU
for what its worth Bob I think it might be a good idea to remove clutter however well intended from our thinking, for instance Moray the undoubted champion of documented, witnessed, antenna power systems did not have access to advanced Radar theory or in fact semi conductors or any of the other goodies we have available .

[Duncan]

cont...

Luckily (or not) Bob you seem to be latching onto my line of thought as is mbrownn particularly regarding ¼ wave and series resonance moving that a step forward I wonder if you might like to view this video by Robert Bass particularly regarding Moray . Please to note the inclusion of germanium xtals ( I seem to recall a large lump of Rock Moray found on a rail car in Switzerland or sweden)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHTCZu8OZtI
another progression for you to consider Bob and IMHO particularly pertinent to Moray and the Tate system regarding germanium and xtals in general .
Xtals used in VHF-UHF radio work are also operated in the two methods – series and parallel please read now the – FREQUENCY PROGRESSION of series driven Xtals . …. This paragraph
Crystals can be operated in a mode called overtone mode. Third overtone, and fifth overtone crystals are commonly used in the lower VHF
range 30 to 150 MHz. Seventh and ninth overtone crystals are also used, and can operate up to a few
hundred MHz. Most fundamental crystals can be operated on their third and often fifth overtone, and higher
order overtone crystals can be operated on their lower order overtones and fundamental as well
is borrowed from this paper
http://www.northcountryradio.com/PDFs/070302007.pdf

For some time (long ago) I repaired thousands of these walkie talkies for my bread and butter



The Tx was in the 2+ GHz range to get up there the 13th overtone was selected … Its a little hard to view things like this Bob but this difference (Harmonics and Overtones) is actually if you like another way of dividing electricity. In simple terms harmonic progression which we are familiar with and use all the time (parallel) and overtone progression(series) about which we know next to nothing,

[Duncan]

and more...

however it does rear its head again in heavy power .
Americans I think are trained at the teat to butcher the English language and miss out completely what they don’t understand so please keep in mind overtones are an 'odd progression ' harmonics are an 'even progression' odd harmonics ???what the hells that , In heavy power and particularly with the advent of lots of fast switched mode power supplies ( kinda like bedini does) this progression is becoming increasingly troublesome watch for the progression here described as circulating neutral current ….
Effects of Harmonic Currents
The effect is cumulative and the neutral is connected to and in effect is guess what …. earth! … ground ! Now depending where your standing and how your viewing this, that’s reactive current AKA Magnetic current Its only conjecture of course Bob but now add the bits together but tune, receive and use those currents and perhaps we are looking at undiluted Moray
Just to show my vintage Mr Brownn here is a picture of the last beast I bought and TX'd on



like you I previously played and enjoyed Ex WD equipment . I used to love home brewing but alas technology overtook my fumbling ability. Do any hams build anything any more or just buy a box?
Certainly building side band equipment is challenging, still the fun and experimentation was gone for me . Anyway as a teen my pocket money got me one of these to play with with a huge longwise antenna it was inspirational



Well Bob right or wrong I hope you see the train I start to consider here , regarding the antenna Moray enigma dormant from the 1920s kind regards Duncan

[Bob Smith]

Hi Duncan
You're way ahead of me, but I think we're on the same page.
Regards,
Bob

[mbrownn]

Duncan, Nice transceiver

I think you give me too much credit for understanding because, I think you guys are way ahead of me but i will chip in where I think its relevant

Giving more thought to this, what was very important in the Moray device and the Tesla device was a very good ground, and an antenna. We know Tesla worked with ¼ wavelengths and it seems moray did the same. Many have speculated about the frequency required but maybe this could be a red herring.

I made a comparison between a circuit Vidbid posted and the Tesla magnifying transmitter here http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-question.html but maybe there is more to this. We have huge currents passing through the earth, maybe the Tesla magnifying transmitter and Morays device both acted as amplifiers? Maybe the frequency was only to perturb the earth current causing it to flow in a more usable frequency. Voltage being provided from the antenna, current from the earth, frequency from the device.

If we stick two earth rods in the ground and pass an AC current into them, In one direction we would only see the current from the AC. In the other we see the AC plus the earth current. If the earth has inductance and the frequency is high enough, the opposing part of the AC will produce a spike in voltage in the earth current. If we now had a second path to allow the earth current to flow, ie our load, the inductance of the earth would provide the voltage required to overcome the impedance.

I did read somewhere that the earth has both inductance and capacitance.

Is this worth investigating?

We would need very good earths, not just a simple one like used today. The frequency would have to match the earths inductance between two points, or maybe between the earth and the sky.