Barbosa and Leal Devices - Info and Replication Details

[level]

**************

[wantomake]

Did succeed

Clarence,
Thanks for this replication, it's good to see something that can harvest energy from the planet without polluting it in return. I've been a little successful using the captor setup, but using car coils instead of toroids. Only lights a 13 watt cfl and powers the charger to the battery bank.

I'm only able to do a small setup with 5 copper grounding rods. Therefore I'm certain, as it did happen, that energy can be pulled from the earth.

Hope to add to the setup as I can,
wantomake

[MadMack]

Common sense

It has been pointed out to you on a few occasions already that when there is a ground loop when using the mains, that it is possible that a power meter at the input of the device may not correctly detect the actual power being used. If the ground loop bypasses the power meter, then the meter may possibly not properly measure the power drawn in the loop that is bypassing it, depending on the type of power meter being used.

Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me. Rather than just take it for granted that you are right or Clarence is right I have done a little research and compared it to Clarence's circuit and his ground rod arrangement.

http://web.mit.edu/~jhawk/tmp/p/EST0...ps_handout.pdf

In particular pages 3 to 6. Clarence measured the current as it entered his circuit and measured the current at the load in his circuit. Why would that be invalid? The house meter has nothing to do with it. To think that his ground center rods are getting current from a single house ground rod 20 times farther away than the multitude of rods surrounding his center rods is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

If that were the case then my house has ground loops with my neighbors electric service on all sides.

Mack

[level]

Hello MadMAck. What I have explained is very straight forward. Some people seem to interpret what I have said as indicating that I think a Barbosa and Leal device can't possibly work, but I have said nothing of the kind. I have pointed out where you can potentially be fooled however, and what steps you should take to avoid those potential problems. Use only battery power and measure the voltage and current on the battery and you should be good as long as you know how to do basic measurements.

[level]

I've been a little successful using the captor setup, but using car coils instead of toroids. Only lights a 13 watt cfl and powers the charger to the battery bank.
I'm only able to do a small setup with 5 copper grounding rods. Therefore I'm certain, as it did happen, that energy can be pulled from the earth.

Hope to add to the setup as I can,
wantomake

Hello wantomake. If you are using car ignition coils to step up the voltage, then that doesn't sound exactly like a Barbosa and Leal arrangement, but if you can post a drawing here showing how you have everything connected, I think people here would be interested in seeing it. Are you just powering your setup from a battery and inverter, with no mains connection at all?

[MadMack]

You are still advising people to use the mains after it has been explained many times that the power comes from the mains via a ground loop when doing so in this type of arrangement with the hot wire connected directly to one side of the load. Please stop trying to deceive people with such nonsense.

Hello level,

Please reread my previous post, and please point out how Clarence's measurements are invalid and how his extra power comes from the mains via a ground loop, in regards to the way he has his actual physical setup.

I don't want a heated argument here, just a rational explanation that makes sense when applied to Clarence's setup.

Best regards
Mack

[clarence]

Clarence,
Thanks for this replication, it's good to see something that can harvest energy from the planet without polluting it in return. I've been a little successful using the captor setup, but using car coils instead of toroids. Only lights a 13 watt cfl and powers the charger to the battery bank.

I'm only able to do a small setup with 5 copper grounding rods. Therefore I'm certain, as it did happen, that energy can be pulled from the earth.

Hope to add to the setup as I can,
wantomake

Hello wantomake

I am personally GLAD for your success in whatever fashion it comes.
also I hope that all of your updates prove successful until you achieve what you are looking for!
NEVER be discouraged by anything or anybody and your progress will follow.

Best of wishes, and respects Sir

Clarence

[level]

Hello level,
Please reread my previous post, and please point out how Clarence's measurements are invalid and how his extra power comes from the mains via a ground loop, in regards to the way he has his actual physical setup.
I don't want a heated argument here, just a rational explanation that makes sense when applied to Clarence's setup.
Best regards
Mack

Hello MadMack. I have not stated that Clarence's measurements are invalid. You just made that up. I have said that he hasn't provided sufficient test results under the proper conditions for anyone to be able to assess how is setup is actually performing. I have already pointed out where significant problems can potentially occur and how to avoid those problems, so I won't dwell on that. Either someone is interested in taking steps to fully understand what is going on in a given setup, or they are not.

[MadMack]

Hello level,

I have not stated that Clarence's measurements are invalid. You just made that up.

No, I didn't make it up, I inferred it from your following statement.

You have demonstrated absolutely nothing so far, and you spoke of tests done using the mains, which shows you either have no understanding at all what you are doing, or you are deliberately trying to deceive people for whatever reason.

Big difference.

Either someone is interested in taking steps to fully understand what is going on in a given setup, or they are not.

Indeed.

[level]

Hello level,
No, I didn't make it up, I inferred it from your following statement. Big difference.

No, it is just a plain fact that if you are powering this type of setup from the mains, that you can't draw any conclusions about how the circuit is performing due to (potential) ground loop issues. Even if you try to take careful measurements, you can't draw any conclusions from those measurements due to the ground loop issue. I can't control whether people understand the significance of this. All I can do is point it out. People can do what they please. If you want to avoid the probem altogether, then the simple and straight forward solution is to power from a battery and inverter, and measure the battery terminal voltage and battery DC current draw when the battery is under load. Simple and easy.

[MadMack]

Level,
I do agree that an easy way to take safe measurements is with a battery inverter system. However that does not take into consideration that mains AC is not the same quality as the AC from a 3000 watt battery powered inverter. Pure sine wave or not.

A person could set up a mains supply to a B&L setup and simply disconnect the earth ground wire from the distribution panel to run tests. That would certainly put the potential loop to rest.

And before you say it, if you don't know how to safely disconnect that earth wire from the service panel then you have no business fooling with a B&L setup in the first place.

All that being said, I think you are doing a disservice when you reject Clarence's mains setups out of hand. He has stated more than once that his ground rod array is 60 to 70 feet from his service ground. If you really look at his circuit and ground array and where the mains is connected, I mean really look at the physical relations of the components, scale it all out in a layout, you can see that a ground loop is not going to be an issue. The resistance from the ground array to the service panel earth ground is too high for it to interact with his circuit. Electrons will always take the path of least resistance and current always returns to the source. The path of least resistance is through the wire from the ground array to the service neutral line connected to Clarence's B&L circuit.

Regards
Mack

[level]

Hello MadMack. Don't forget that clarence has sunk about 56 or more ground rods into the ground connected at the output of his setup. That will most likely provide a pretty good ground return path back to the ground at the panel. I was able to light a 100W light bulb quite brightly from the mains hot wire by sinking a single rusty 2 foot long ground rod into the ground about roughly 30 feet from the mains panel earth ground. The conductivity of the earth where a person lives is going to be a factor in that, but a ground loop will still be a factor even with poor earth ground, as there will still be some degree of a ground loop at play.

A pure sinewave inverter will give you a reasonable sinewave, so I would suspect that won't be too much of a factor here. Some people's mains power is probably more distorted than a pure sinewave inverter. If Barbosa and Leal are legit, then I personally have not seen a replication that appears to do what they have claimed. If someone can demonstrate a Barbosa and Leal arrangement using only a battery and inverter as the input power source that will produce a lot more power out than the battery is supplying, then in that case they might well be on to something there.

[citfta]

The fact someone would even suggest disconnecting the safety ground from the mains electrical panel is very strong evidence that person has absolutely no business working with mains power.

If you insist that mains power is somehow necessary for this circuit to work then USE an isolation transformer like I suggested earlier. If there is really no ground loop problem like you believe then an isolation transformer should work fine. If the circuit won't work with an isolation transformer then that proves there is a ground loop problem with the mains grounding system.

A person could set up a mains supply to a B&L setup and simply disconnect the earth ground wire from the distribution panel to run tests. That would certainly put the potential loop to rest.

And before you say it, if you don't know how to safely disconnect that earth wire from the service panel then you have no business fooling with a B&L setup in the first place.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[wantomake]

no mains connection

Hello wantomake. If you are using car ignition coils to step up the voltage, then that doesn't sound exactly like a Barbosa and Leal arrangement, but if you can post a drawing here showing how you have everything connected, I think people here would be interested in seeing it. Are you just powering your setup from a battery and inverter, with no mains connection at all?

Level,
No mains connection. Just regular inverter no pure sine wave. Smart car battery charger, marine battery bank (solar bank). Two no resistor car coils(old upright can type).

I did make a drawing in one sketch book to study with, not sure will show up good as picture. I don't have the schematic drawing feature on this kindle fire.
I use the Kurt oscillator setup without the Darlington pair.
https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=QoYDbHhbaNY

Hope this helps,
wantomake

[wantomake]

I have that hope

Clarence,
Thanks for the kind words. My ultimate goal is to finish a home unit, then hope and plan someday to see a real motor/generator that we all can share and replicate.

Respectively,
wantomake