Single Wire Power - A Search for Ambient Power to do Wwork

[Bob Smith]

Dave's 2BGS, Duncan's Drawing

thx .. I do try to find glaring anomalies and adapt them to my mission sometimes having little idea why the anomaly exists. I'm going to relate one such . It was explained to me by fellow member David Bowling whilst I stayed with him for a short while, Its actually the genesis of his 3BGS. Almost a happy accident! the events unfolded for David pretty much as I explain (given some poetic licence for bad memory and emphasises) However I'm sure with a polite ask David would cross the T's and dot the I's … David had a pretty big Lead acid battery sitting under a bench at the back of his work shop, forgotten, unloved and uncharged for a long (far to long ) time.The term
'Battery' then is being a bit elastic with the truth, this thing is simply a box of sulphated crystals that look a bit like a Battery . The battery has with no trouble what so ever reached the stage the physics text books describe as > approaching infinite impedance >
quite pointless trying to charge such a thing by any normal means and obviously totally pointless putting a thing of 'infinite impedance' in any sort of circuit … No usful current can possibly flow.
David also had a half decent LA Battery to hand and a car windscreen motor ever the optimist and just tinkering David threw this circuit together... Which of course didn't work .. How could it possibly?
Nothing complex here …( Is there?)



In disgust David abandoned the junk and headed for the Coffee jar. In a careless off hand move which would later have huge ramifications David didn't bother to disconnect .. just abandoned it. (been there, done that!)
A few hours later noises in the empty house ! .. Burglars ? No. The motor has started itself … It was going faster and faster any attempts to stop it physically was resisted, – It just went faster still
a few tests showed the half decent 'charged battery' was now 'fully charged' and full of pep. David’s father lives 'off grid' and in due course David presented this scrap to him. They connected it to the huge bank of batteries used on the homestead … Two flicks of a lambs tail and they were all fully charged (rejuvenated?) too!
Well David’s 3BGS has run for many pages and I certainly don't want to rake old coals. however I can't help but feel that the crystal structure inside what the researchers referred to as 'the bad battery' was the key (and alas the stumbling block) .They'd keep restoring themselves and revert to a perfectly good lead acid Batteries The effect gone , Will O' the wisp. IMHO Somewhere in that Crystal business a big portion of this enigma is answered. It was really the scale of 'free energy' which became available which is difficult to convey .. almost frightening

At the risk of derailing my own thread...
I decided to try this with a very dead LA battery I removed from my car last month. In its dying days, I was able to charge it fully, and that would last 2 days. I tried to put the charger on it today, and it won't even take a charge - not even registering 1mV. Dead as a doornail. Useless as t*ts on a bull.

I used a DC motor from a battery-powered hand drill. The motor sprang to life once things were connected as per Duncan's diagram. The battery began to charge into negative polarity. It rose to -3V and I had to let the motor rest. With a load on the shaft, it wanted to draw more amperage (I suppose) and the charge in the battery rose higher and faster. I don't have a way to keep a load on it right now, but the concept is fascinating.

It would seem to me that this completely useless battery is drawing energy in from the environment and I suppose the sulfation inside it is acting as a kind of catalytic layer, enabling it to draw from the ambient.

With the DC motor, I'm assuming we're getting an AC signal inside the motor(positive as magnet approaches TDC on rotor coil, crossing zero to negative as magnet recedes away from TDC). Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm wondering how the electrical action of the motor is interacting with the sulfated battery to enable the battery to charge. This information might be useful for other applications involving LABs.
Bob

Edit: To be fair, I should mention that I started the process off with one of UFOPolitics' 5 pole modified motors, which sprang into life once connected. It was running pretty fast, and I was worried about burning out the brushes, so I switched to the old drill DC motor, which seemed to actually push the voltage in the dead battery higher into the negative range. Like I said, I stopped at just past 3V to let the motor rest, so as not to burn it out. If I can find a way to put and keep a load on it, I will, and I'm sure that will enable the battery to charge quite rapidly.

[Turion]

Here is the "story" from the very first post in the "3 Battery Generating System" thread here on the forum, with details you might be interested in added that were left out of that post because of length. I'll shut up after this as I have NO INTENTION of sidetracking this thread.

It is a circuit similar to one first posted by John Bedini some years ago where he used a light bulb as load. Two charged batteries, one discharged battery and a load. I used a 12 volt DC motor as the load. It was an old robotics motor that I still have. We knew we were going to put this circuit together, and intended to do it with three GOOD batteries as in John's circuit, but after charging all three batteries overnight, we discovered one battery would take a charge but not HOLD it. We put the battery that would take, but not hold a charge in the third position. THIS IS CRITICAL TO YOUR SUCCESS!!!!! IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A BATTERY THAT WILL TAKE A CHARGE BUT NOT HOLD IT IN YOUR THIRD POSITION YOU WILL NOT GET THE SAME RESULTS I HAVE GOTTEN. You MAY get some good results, but you will probably NOT get AMAZING results. ARE WE CLEAR ABOUT THAT???!!!

When we first threw the switch, nothing happened. We figured this was a dud experiment, and got involved in some other things. Ten to fifteen minutes later the motor suddenly started up. The voltage on the bad battery would jump to 24 volts. It would go down slowly to about 18 volts, and then the motor would slowly start and begin to run, speeding up gradually. The voltage would continue to drop down to around nine volts, at which time the motor would suddenly shut off and the voltage would immediately jump back to 24 volts and the cycle would repeat. This change in battery voltage is what has convinced me that what we measure when we put a meter on battery 3 (in this configuration) is NOT the voltage in the battery, but the POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE between battery 3 and the two batteries in series. That potential starts high, at 24 or so volts because of two batteries in series vs a dead battery, and goes DOWN as the bad battery charges. But until there is SOME charge in the bad battery, the motor will not run. So when the bad battery has about 6 volts in it, the motor will begin to slowly run. As the motor sped up and the voltage in the bad battery began to climb, the meter showed a lower and lower voltage potential difference. When that difference got down to around 7-8 volts the motor would shut off, and the voltage would jump again...up to 24 volts and the cycle would repeat. WHY and HOW this step happened is the KEY to it all. CLEARLY the bad battery was HOLDING nothing if the voltage jumped immediately to 24 volts if we were truly measuring the [potential difference. But if the battery was holding nothing, how did the potential difference slowly go down to 18 volts???? These are the questions that keep me up at night.

To try and get the system to keep from shutting off, I ASSUMED I needed to keep the battery in the third position from becoming charged, so I began to hook loads to it. I used an inverter and powered all kinds of loads, balancing the load on battery three by putting an additional LOAD ON THE MOTOR. It did amazing things. It ran for a several WEEKS, powering loads 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I slept on a cot in the garage next to it while it ran at night, so I KNOW it was running. I thought I was going to be rich, so I took the thing apart and flew to California to meet a patent attorney, paying him $10,000 up front (non-refundable) to do a patent search and file for a patent. When I returned home, the thing would NOT work. Fortunately the attorney took pity on me and refunded MOST of my non-refundable deposit, just because he thought the thing was so cool! I have been working on this for 10 years now. I won’t ever stop.

Dave

[Bob Smith]

Thanks for that further info, Dave. I'm going to try to run a friend's simple oscillator circuit from which he and I been (and others) have been able to draw single wire power, using the same battery setup in the next couple of days when I get a chance. Perhaps it may have something to teach us and might help us understand what's going on in the batteries as well.
Bob

Edit: BTW, earlier this week, I set up a feedback from my single wire system back to the battery, and it started to climb from 11.5 volts to over 16. I disconnected the positive and it continued to climb. I got scared and disconnected the negative, at which point it stopped. I left the system sit a couple of hours, went back and could not replicate the effect. Not sure what happened. But it was a single battery, and for a few minutes, the amount of charge available in the battery seemed to be growing - even while the circuit ran. Occasionally, my DMM has pinged out over 1000V on my battery terminals and then shut down. Under certain conditions, magic seems to happen with these LA batteries. I'd sure love to know what that is and how to produce that effect at will. My thinking so far has been it's a combination of sulfation and resonance / right frequency. Onward we go.

[Duncan]

Now a good (big) ground connection Bob -- to either dud battery connection
then you'll see things fly!

[Duncan]

a change of direction

well done Bob ! But I'm sorry you regard it as going off topic. I promise you it isn't . your subject is harvesting energy from a single wire and if you connect either side of that dead battery to a solid ground you’ll see some startling effects. You won't be able to measure anything but many Amps (possibly hundreds) will visit the battery. Having said that you have probably realized the frustration of a lot of people who got so very near regarding 3bgs.
The classic definition of an experiment requires that it be repeatable each and every time .
You might view this set up as a Ponds & Fleishman thing .. sometimes a Diamond – sometimes a stone.
It is Clear that I do not fully understand what is occurring or else I would have posted it ! (promise)
There are some on the forum who have a different agenda for instance write lengthy posts pertinent to a thread only later to return and remove them. Some who perhaps have an answer but rather than share it, opt to lead others astray. Its just my opinion of course but I would like to see instant expulsion for these actions.
As David has told us he had dreams of 'big money' I'm sure most on this thread know a 'big hole' with a corpse in it is a more probable outcome for free energy researchers . The man would like some money (me too! ) but more than that .. some answers
I'm finding the digestion of thx's diet difficult –wow half of these effects I have never even heard of !
I hope he finds a simple answer or at least a solid mile post contained in his thoughts. (It seems to be starting to mesh in places for me.)
I guess we all, like horse's, 'bulk at the water jump' when confronted with things out of our comfort zone (so I'm taking little bites)
Bob I wonder if you might like to repair you battery by other means in order to validate the next step in my thinking ? I naturally don’t assume I have solved the whole enigma but as I struggle to comprehend this chemistry Its necessary for the chemist to understand me … Its one of those problems we humans have, understanding one another that is...
Considering this effect my thinking and practice was to get away from the Motors , the switching .. simplify .. then point at the effect .. and Isolate It !
So Bob if you'd like to take another step with your rotten battery whilst I explain the thinking (which isn’t very deep) That would be super! You already know I dance from anomaly to anomaly Here is a page of very standard, pedestrian electricians training .
Why does a capacitor create a 90 degree phase shift of voltage and current? - Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange
Pretty standard lets amplify that … Any sized capacitor in any sinusoidal AC circuit will cause a 90 deg phase shift
.. Still easy to swallow ? It isn’t for me ! But I have pushed it to the ridiculous to stress the point.

Now consider the simple power equation and particularly cos φ P = VI cos φ so ….
If φ is 90 deg no power is consumed by extension then any circuit containing a series connected capacitor of any size consumes no power !
Going to put your house on that Bob ? I wouldn't – Its obviously a fudge .. Its a fudge I'd like to invite you to test !
It seems to steer far away from the 3BGS which you have already reduced to the 2BGS . Here's the 1BGS .. In fact no G so lets just say the 1BS system ( The cynical might say one bull ****ter system but --- t'aint so!) The idea is to KISS
and This is so simple its silly … whats happening isn't simple at all !
My approach is different to thx .. it has to be the knowledge base is different . Here is my stance, not because I wish to argue! I simply want us all nearer the mother lode. .. I draw a very definite distinction between the terms ' To charge a battery' and 'To rejuvenate a battery' very very different operations .
To charge a battery is the usual well trodden dogma which isn't of interest to us … We haven't got a battery anyway ! As Bob says we've got tits on a bull ! To rejuvenate a battery can be almost instant … and its frighting !
The Pdf I posted quotes 0 charge to 80% in 15mins it can be much faster!
There's a phenomenal amount of energy available and you can hear and feel it. So with no disrespect to the 3BGS lets simplify 'rejuvenation' and get closer to 'one wire'.
What difference a spark gap a capacitor or a DC motor armature ? Not much, different terms which tend to confuse , Ionization, plasma, dielectric breakdown, armature reaction … KISS … in a series circuit Its e'lectric turned on and off very quickly . Again there’s big words almost as long as 'wheelbarrow' to describe this .
Essentially then this is all the G … in the 3BGS represents as far as the rotten battery is concerned … A variable series connected capacitor ! The energy from the ambient (The ground mostly) is a result of Resonance.
I suggest Bob you now take your shagged battery and give it some of this treatment

Capacitive Battery Charger - John Saves Energy

perhaps not at mains voltage (if your not happy there) then put it back in your motor if you want. here's a 'one size fits all ' build

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6NluEvBAUU

This will not (Usually) demonstrate COP >1 I don't intend that it should ! Only that this is 'rejuvenation' as opposed to …. Charging
COP is a slightly different art which seems proportional to resonance and ground antenna efficiency. I am perhaps jumping ahead to far but given that you can get and adjust close to resonance it makes no difference if you 'rejuvenate' one battery or one hundred .The current is common and VI cos φ still = 0

George Wiseman of Eagle fame makes use of this first in respect of capacitive battery 'rejuvenation' as explained here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJA6bHB9jgk

George doesn't seem to have realized the ground Implications but certainly has paid 'lip service' to resonance in his next step .
I should explain that electricians are taught reactive current is a component of reactive power and reactive power can 'do no work' George then suggests you take a whole bank of batteries 10 in his case (20 in mine) as I'm in Europe then adjust charging by altering capacitance to minimum real power (Watts) and so maximum - ground reactive, tulleric or magnetic current. Depending what language you speak.

Reverse Your Electric Meter, Legally! | www.eagle-research.com

I think I prefer the historical term magnetic current which was dropped from the text books very quickly after a certain Edward Leedskalnin decided to write about it.
At this point the 3BGS is academic although it is one hell of a learning tool . You have already done it with two batteries Bob why complicate ?
The descriptions above gets rid of all the generator / motor baggage and does go COP>1 .
It still doesn't answer the questions we all want to know how? & Why? & How can whatevers happening inside that poor old knackered battery be stabilized ? There's pretty easy ways around the rest . even staying close to resonance will have a circuit somewhere .

[mikrovolt]

Crystals and chemistry form diode-like junctions.
In the Stiffler SEC he produces hydrogen bubbles using a diode in water.
In this we can see that the experiment explores open pathways.

Most would agree that the diode does not use a conventional pathway
that a single wire connects to a copper band on the water jar.
We need to look at what is being charged and how and why this
interaction allows an event that would not take place otherwise.

We know diodes in closed system conduct in one direction with 3BGS and
other LA battery experiments that reversal takes place followed by phenomena.
Logically there is conduction (of some kind ) in the other direction in a dead battery
under certain conditions.

Understanding what really is a self generated discharge (SGD) by examining modern day proof.
The secret and the science of unlimited electric energy
Making one wire experiments successful by using open systems approach.

[Bob Smith]

Great posts, guys! Busy couple of days ahead. I'll post when I can.
Carry on...

Bob

[Duncan]

Errata

Without comment I introduce the following that you may or may not be able to reproduce

a/ Take two charged Lead acid batteries (one being a control) put one on a concrete floor one on a wooden table
note the speed of relative degradation.

B/ Take a discharged Lead acid battery charge it by normal means sitting on top of natural slate on a wooden table (or similar) … see that an imprint of the battery plates is indelibly etched into the slate.

C/ This I suspect only good for folks who have tried their hand at dowsing … repeat the experiment Bob has done above , use a pretty small normally fast motor (I used one which normally vibrated car seats) As David has also explained depending on the state of the crystallized battery you may have to wait some time for the motor to turn of its own volition . (Once it does just as Bob says It throws more and more at you .. Its a very touchy feely,eerie thing.)
Anyway prior to that whilst staring at this static motor I was of course willing it to turn .. it did, It reminded me of dowsing so .. I thought to stop it .. It did. I managed to do that twice and slow the motor down once before it whizzed away on its own mission . Imagination ? Coincidence ? I really don't know but I mention it because you may like to try it too ! … and luckily you needn't tell anyone and look silly like me!

[Duncan]

Did Tesla Trip and Fall ?

Hi Mikrovolt yes I have that feeling too regarding Crystals and diode effect . As I regard the single wire system , This crystal effect and other systems I get the impression of a Radio system that is a mirror image but subtly different.
The single wire antenna of a radio isn’t really a lone wire it is part of a circuit between sky and ground the predominance being sky .so the use of an earth connection long ago abandoned.
Wireless the theory is reversed The transmission is mainly by ground .. It is not electromagnetic and Its not a transverse wave. The transcripts of Tesla's court appearances tell us so.
The experiments of EPD show us the tuning of a wireless system is 'series resonant' whilst the tuning of a Radio system is parallel resonant .
The radio system results in a high voltage across the tank circuit .. The wireless system in a high magnetic current
through the series circuit. The radio system uses a single crystal diode to 'de-modulate' (transform) the signal into a usable form
The Wireless system used here ( I assume) uses thousands perhaps millions of crystals to 'de-modulate' (transform) This huge magnetic current. Here is some vintage Tk video consider the size of the earth wire (no need to watch the whole thing I'm sure you've seen it before anyway)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zURkxC0quAY
After The war of the currents Tesla and Westinghouse attended to the business of The Niagara falls and the Buffalo power line . Tesla never concerned himself much with poly-phase and electromagnetism afterward s .. Why ? How do you think relations were between Edison/ GEC and Tesla/ Westinghouse a bit tetchy ? especially as Tesla refused to ever be in the same room. Do you really think Tesla would let Edison /GEC anywhere near his pet project and ambition?
The answer is .. Only if he really had to, Only if he had absolutly no choice, He didn't !The thing was a bloody disaster . Business did what it would today , Hushed it up and looked desperately for an escape, (Business is only happy to gamble with other folks money & stocks and shares .. It is now .. It was then.)
Huge amounts of unexplained energy was entering the grid system … destroying things, killing people. Tesla's assistant was privileged to do the 'turn on' some privilege! that was him ' Brown bread' as free energy researchers you have heard of Tesla , probably heard of the War of the currents , may know about Tesla Westinghouse and the Niagara falls project . Would it surprise you to see a documentary where all mention of Tesla is Erased from that project ? Bit of a cheek especially as Tesla/Westinghouse is superseded by Edison/GEC and Steinmetz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iQFGyD769U
Seems Steinmetz and GEC actually won 'the war of the currents' (silly me !) True in bits of course .. Steinmetz did resolve the technical issues .. did resolve hysteresis. The trouble is, he resolved it for electrostatics also! That had two effects
it opened the doors for 'free energy' and let a razor sharp mind like Tesla comprehend the possibilities.
It goes without saying the last thing Business wanted then or now is 'free energy'
The work of Steinmetz pertaining to , were took out of print and circulation . Maths and theory doctored and dumbed down to the crap we all learn today .Tesla .. Silenced and Dealt with.
The whole episode covered in fairy dust and dis-information. Just like today ! no change there

[Turion]

I submit the following from the 3BGS thread. I would recommend that everyone here read the first (and ONLY the first) post on that thread, because I believe it does impact some of what is being discussed here. This part of the first post follows almost immediately the last part I posted the other day. Here I am talking about (or referring to) putting together the initial setup with a bad battery, and when you flip the switch, the motor DOES NOT BEGIN TO RUN for several minutes. After the motor DOES start and run for a while, these were my instructions:

____________________
At this point you need to stop and let your primary batteries sit and rest overnight, recharging them. You also need to DRAIN battery three by connecting a light to it and leaving it overnight. Discharge it completely.

AFTER DOING ALL THAT AND LETTING THE SYSTEM REST OVERNIGHT, reconnect everything. Flip the switch to start the system and you will find that this time the motor starts IMMEDIATELY.

So…..if the delay in starting you saw yesterday were because of a difference in potential between the set of two batteries in series and the single battery, when could that potential possibly be GREATER than when you have just charged the two main batteries while at the same time, discharging the bad battery all night long with a bulb on it?

If the delay yesterday was because there was not enough juice in the bad battery and it had to get a little before the motor could start up, how could there possibly be LESS juice than there is right now, when you have drained the bad battery ALL NIGHT LONG. It should have NO juice. None. So you should be having to put some juice into the battery for the motor to start. It should take LONGER to start RIGHT NOW than it did yesterday, and yet the motor started immediately.

It is my belief that we are talking about some kind of magnetic alignment that takes place in a bad battery and continues as long as there is a load on the battery, and also lasts for a couple days after the load is removed. If you can let it sit for a couple days, hook it back into the system and flip the switch, once again the motor will NOT start immediately.

Dave
3BGS thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...erating+System

[DavidE]

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

The invention relates generally to conversion of electromagnetic radiation energy to electrical energy, and, more particularly, to conversion of high frequency bandwidths of the spectrum of a type of radiation known as zero point electromagnetic radiation to electrical energy.

the intensity of the radiation increases without limit as the frequency increases resulting in an infinite energy density for the radiation spectrum

Patent US5590031 - System for converting electromagnetic radiation energy to electrical energy - Google Patents

[Duncan]

Then there's this rampaging pink Elephant !

David .. you seem to miss the point , perhaps because the 3BGS is such an obsession (why not its your Baby)
however this isn't the 3BGS thread. I have simply taken the liberty of using one of the phenomena I witnessed there and so acknowledged its origin.
It doesn't require any particular lead acid battery nor two or three or four of them.
It does require that they sulphate and crystallize and so become what all the text books call 'infinite impedance'
any lead acid battery will do that (all to bloody quickly in my experience !)
The driving battery is irrelevant and so is the motor. I'm sure you see that there is now a circuit made up of a Battery, an infinite (crystal?) resistance, and a motor. (An infinite resistance measured before and after running I might add) it couldn't be any simpler! by all current laws the motor shouldn't run. But of course we see it does . It not only runs but exhibits properties some call 'negative resistance' I did bring all this up on your thread David including the antenna association .. it was kicked into the long grass !
The significance hasn't been lost here, Your 3BGS post I know is relevant .. if you want to muck about with motors and lots of batteries that is, That’s not the ambition here. The ambition here is to use a single wire antenna (be it sky or ground), get it resonant and then (The part the crystals play .. de-modulate .. convert to electricity,)
As far as I can tell so far any lead acid battery can do it at some stage, why it does it, and how is a very different matter. And that’s what I've put in the oven here,
That then is what Bob means when he says the impossible is happening .. He see's current is flowing freely through infinite impedance, Its what I have asked thx and Mikrovolt to consider in a round about way,
Had I started with a square wave oscillator, power amplifier , or even a simple capacitor and sulphated battery … I would be at the same place asking the same question. We can all including you David I'm sure, explain or duplicate every part of this very simple circuit .. except of course how ohms law ceases to exist . I can't explain the Xtal phenomena which is why I paint it vividly here in terms of DC and then simplify so much .. so all can see . an Antenna doesn't receive DC but as Bob pointed out in a link DC can be regarded as AC at a phenomenally high frequency.
With AC resistance is not the issue Its Impedance Z that’s important, In this case Z appears negative .. And no I can't explain that either but I've got a pretty good idea if some-one can but put some meat on the bones of these crystals . perhaps this one step forward , two steps side ways .. rest overnight with a light bulb will have an answer in due course but meanwhile There's a big pink Elephant not just sitting in the room but dancing around it, laughing at us! Current is seen to be flowing through an infinite resistance .. IMHO that needs a good hard stare with fresh eyes QED

[DavidE]

Summary of the Invention

Some embodiments of a method in accordance with the present invention define an engine cycle comprising several state changes that enable a net gain or recovery of energy that is accessed via Casimir force-generating boundaries (e.g., plates, etc.).


Patent WO2000071894A1 - Method and apparatus for energy extraction - Google Patents

[DavidE]

SUMMARY OF INVENTION

To solve the need for a power supply for an associated energy-using device that can be deployed anywhere and is self-sustaining, reliable and maintenance-free over its service life in potentially harsh conditions, the present invention provides an ambient electromagnetic energy collector that couples to an ambient electromagnetic field around the device to extract energy from the ambient electromagnetic field, having an inductor structure for coupling to a magnetic field component of the ambient electromagnetic field so that it can be substantially reduced in size as compared to an antenna structure for coupling to the electric field component of the ambient electromagnetic field.


Patent US20070107766 - Multi-source ambient energy power supply for embedded devices or remote ... - Google Patents

[Duncan]

- stochastic resonance -

Thanks For These posts DavidE . I had realized the same possibles even way back on the 3BGS thread, The term stochastic which appears in the patent (along with casimir effect ) also appear in my conjecture back then .
In fact the electrical equivalent of .'Stochastic resonance' which appears in the maths of finance but is hidden from electrical engineering . That thinking too was intentionally consigned to the long grass! - by others
Alas I can only lightly touch these theories and its really simple practical answers I seek ! If I could fill one of the shagged batteries with resin and it would be kind enough to hold the electrical 'status quo' that would be spiffing ! That dream is never going to pan out like that though . Is it? I Just have to tell what I see and how I see it and then hope someone has the nous to pick up the ball in another field of engineering and hope he/she has the spunk to release the practical answer to that bit of the puzzle still for what little its worth I think your arrow flies true.