Your Basic Coil

[Mario]

Dave, but do you get acceleration, or at least no deceleration if you short your AIR coils?

Mario

[Matthew Jones]

Those are high impedance coils with no cores. They won't accelerate.

Matt

[Turion]

Reply

No, these particular coils will not speed up the rotor when shorted or loaded. Which is a shame, since I wound them for this generator specifically, but with steel cores. With steel cores they DID speed up under load.I DO have other air core coils that WILL speed up under load, but they are the WRONG size to fit the generator, so I will be winding new ones over thinnest few days for the generator to see if I can't get it to speed up under load again. Lots to do!

[Mario]

Dave,

sorry if I asked, but after your latest video I got confused because of what you wrote in post 14:

I had a single rotor test setup that I could place a coil next to and see the amp and voltage draw of the motor and the amp and voltage output of the coil under a small load. I tested several coils with a simple bulb attached as a load and only ONE coil out of all the ones in my box would speed up under load. As it happens, this coil had 10 strands of #23 which were each 80 feet in length, so exactly 1/3 of what was on the coils on my big generator and it would ALSO speed up under load. So, I doubled the length of the strands. I now have a medium sized coil that has 10 strands of 160 feet or 1600 feet of #23. This is 2/3 the size of my original coil, and it ALSO speeds up under load. I put this on a longer bobbin so that the area exposed to the magnet was the same size as the smaller coil, and I intend to test output of all three coils on the coil test rig when it is completed next week, along with an original coil. I also plan to rewind the medium coil on a shorter fatter bobbin and see if that makes an output difference. (Same air core size, just more turns on a shorter coil.)

Actually I don't care about speed up. What we're after is a coil, be it with or without core, that when loaded (with the right load) and put next to the rotor doesn't decelerate the rotor, compared to having no core/coil next to rotor (base line).

I just haven't been able to see this with an air coil. Even when shorted, it always slows the rotor down somewhat, although I would love to use air coils.

Mario

[Turion]

Speed up under load

Mario,
All three of these coils would speed up under load.
10 strands of #23 at 80 feet in length AIR CORE
10 strands of #23 at 160 feet in length AIR CORE
3 strands of #23 800 feet in length IRON CORE

When I pulled the iron core out of the last one and ran it, it did NOT speed up under load anymore.

I am not just looking for a coil that will maintain (neither speed up nor slow down under load) I am also looking for one that will put out MAX voltage and amperage, since I am trying to build a generator.

Cirris Systems - Wire Resistance Calculator & Table

Matt showed me this calculator and it may help.

Dave

[Matthew Jones]

I am just going to post this part of an earlier post so maybe people will read it and see what results they get if they try... Years of testing has lead to the following theory.

Configuring these is simple and can be done with or without a core material, it almost always requires speeds above 1850 rpms.
The trick is find a coil that will accelerate under short, the remove enough wire to make it short out and not accelerate but slowdown either, and at that point you can run resistive loads. Its simple, no complex operations or theories. And as rule of thumb to get started the amount or resistance in the coil goes up with the amount of mass of permeable material you put in the core. At least that is what we have seen. Simple...

Cheers
Matt

[shylo]

Hi Guys, When I put a load that requires more watts than I'm inputting , I get rpm increase but greater amp draw from supply , If I put a load on, that uses less watts than inputting , the rpm's and the amp draw stay the same, so the load runs for free.
I still use power to run the motor/gen ,but get the output from gen coils as an added bonus.
Currently trying different coils with the big magnet rotor attached to the motor/gen, to get even more free output.
What I'm seeing is don't overload the gens capability.
artv

[erfinder]

Hi Guys, When I put a load that requires more watts than I'm inputting , I get rpm increase but greater amp draw from supply ,

This post is specifically addressed to you Shylo.

This is a message I was trying to get folks to understand, no one did. If you are operating a real MoGen, you want an increase in consumption when the "proper" load condition is established. Your recovery circuit(S):

1. Recovery proper
2. Recovered recovery

recovery proper should be setup so that you are around 80% or better, recovered recovery must be used to excite the generator, augmenting the rotor magnets.

What many haven't realized is that you can recover as much and as often as you want, the reason is simple, we cannot "capture" the collapsing magnetic field, we can only capitalize on the phenomena which manifest in its wake.

If I put a load on, that uses less watts than inputting , the rpm's and the amp draw stay the same, so the load runs for free.

This is absolutely what I have seen on many occasion, the problem is, the output is generally a fraction of what you are using to drive the system. This should have a familiar ring to it, it is the exact same thing we find in some of the more exotic machines being discussed elsewhere on the forum. When this is realized, and all conventional approaches are exhausted in trying to increase the output, one finds that an unconventional alternative is required, at this point, in my research, two things crystallized.

Number one it was clear that in salient pole topology, a phase shift in the magnetic circuit should be established so that the point of maximum flux change should be brought closer to the point of maximum flux density. From a different vantage point it can be seen that the point of maximum flux change is the voltage node, and the point of maximum flux density is the current node, so the idea of bringing them closer together "implies" that the goal is to establish resonance, albeit in a totally unconventional manner. This was accomplished by moving the coil further back on the core. This simple change in perspective led to a generator in which drag was reduced to that experienced through cogging. Under short, acceleration begins at roughly 300 RPM (low frequency), the coils were wound for low inductance and low resistance. I demonstrated this, and as is usually the case, it was entertaining only.

Second, the concept of recovered recovery crystallized out of necessity. It was realized early that in a modified induction motor, the phase offsetting mechanism (increasing the distance between magnet and coil) mentioned before was out of the question. The next best thing to offsetting in the manner mentioned is decoupling. Decoupling as I use the term is a current limiting mechanism. If you need a circuit you need not look any further than the Tesla Hairpin. In the decoupled system, the maximum power output is limited, and a boost is again required, here recovered recovery provides the boost. What we must begin to see how all generators generate in attraction and repulsion mode, more or less simultaneously. The message I am trying to convey is that we limit the repulsion based generation mechanism and augment the attraction based generation mechanism.

I still use power to run the motor/gen ,but get the output from gen coils as an added bonus.

This as you know only holds true so long as the impedance of your load is high enough to keep the current flow, and power associated with that flow, lower than your input. This means that eventually, if you haven't experienced it already, you will see that you must be in the position to vary your load, this is what I noted, and the reason why I opted to just limit the current from the generator, limiting the generators output puts you in a position where you can apply whatever load you want, and need not make adjustments to the impedance when system dynamics change.

Currently trying different coils with the big magnet rotor attached to the motor/gen, to get even more free output.
What I'm seeing is don't overload the gens capability.
artv

Good luck with that.


Regards

[shylo]

"This was accomplished by moving the coil further back on the core. This simple change in perspective led to a generator in which drag was reduced to that experienced through cogging"
Hi Erfinder, I am going to try this ,but takes time.

" The message I am trying to convey is that we limit the repulsion based generation mechanism and augment the attraction based generation mechanism."
My motor part runs both attraction and repulsion. I have run in attraction only and repulsion only, but when one or the other my generated output is lower.
"If you are operating a real MoGen, you want an increase in consumption when the "proper" load condition is established".
I'm not sure if my mogen is considered real or not. I use the coils that drive the system as gen coils as well. When they aren't motoring their generating.

I did a bunch of runs yesterday with the generator coils attached to load and then just left open. I use batteries as my supply so it is hard to get real #'s since batteries aren't consistent. Some of the runs showed more out than what was consumed. But most showed less.

Thanks for the reply still trying to grasp the rest of it.
artv

[erfinder]

"This was accomplished by moving the coil further back on the core. This simple change in perspective led to a generator in which drag was reduced to that experienced through cogging"

Hi Erfinder, I am going to try this ,but takes time.

This approach will give you a generator which more or less cancels the negative effects associated with generator action. The negative effects are resulting reactions between "bucking magnetic fields" between the inducer and induced as per Lenz's "observation". Through bucking magnetic fields we generate outputs that we are familiar with. What we for whatever reason have missed is that the output of a generator is dual, it is a combination of bucking field based generator action as well as neutralizing (attraction) field based generator action. The latter is limited, and is as a rule over powered by the prior. These system dependent generation modes can and should be "inverted". Attraction based generator action should dominate bucking field generator action.

So that its clear, I am specifically referring to the "generator" aspect of the MoGen, independent of and separate from the motor or prime mover. First one must have the proper generator before the motor can be used to augment it.

"The message I am trying to convey is that we limit the repulsion based generation mechanism and augment the attraction based generation mechanism."

My motor part runs both attraction and repulsion. I have run in attraction only and repulsion only, but when one or the other my generated output is lower.

Again my statement above in gray is a direct reference to the "generator" not to the motor or prime mover driving the generator. As you are well aware, folk in this community have been informed of how to construct prime movers or "energizers" which operate in either repulsion or attraction mode. A careful analysis will show you that these devices are also occulting principles on which generators can be built.

The word "energizer" was directly associated with the term "magneto" which all know is a specialized form of generator. In this case, we find that we were presented with a magneto which to a limited degree functions as its own prime mover. MoGen?

"If you are operating a real MoGen, you want an increase in consumption when the "proper" load condition is established".

I'm not sure if my mogen is considered real or not. I use the coils that drive the system as gen coils as well. When they aren't motoring their generating.

As I define a MoGen, for it to be real, you need a proper generator, and proper prime mover. The generator operates predominately in attraction mode, this means by design, its output will be low without augmentation from the motor. The prime mover utilizes unidirectional magnetic fields. To those who are familiar with my work, I refer to this kind of prime mover as 100% Orthogonal, a concept where both attraction and repulsion are not just equal, they are ONE.

In a prime mover, (motor if you prefer) the motoring coils are simultaneously generator coils, and in addition to the generator function, they also serve as transformer winding. Since we aren't openly being instructed along these lines, very few look. There is never a time when motoring coils aren't generating. Try changing your perspective, from "when they aren't motoring they are generating" to something like, the coils are always generating, the motor, and transformer operations are periodic. This change in how you view the system will allow you to see that you are "modulating" the AC signal generated by your "prime mover" with a DC impulse, and AC self induced sines of specific width, amplitude and frequency, at a very specific instant in the induced AC signal! At this point things can and probably will get really complex, however, if and when the fog lifts, you begin to see what I see, endless possibility.

I did a bunch of runs yesterday with the generator coils attached to load and then just left open. I use batteries as my supply so it is hard to get real #'s since batteries aren't consistent. Some of the runs showed more out than what was consumed. But most showed less.

Thanks for the reply still trying to grasp the rest of it.
artv

Real numbers matter to folk looking for numbers. If you want numbers, you will do all in your power to get them. Me, I could care less about numbers. My freedom however one chooses to interpret that word is not to be gained by what the meter or scope indicates.


Regards

[Turion]

erfinder,
Some of what you are saying is what we have seen with the 3BGS setup. When an off the shelf motor is run between two positives, the motor is running as a generator even while it is running as a motor, and the output of the motor is always greater than the input. This is ESPECIALLY apparent with ANY kind of pulse motor where there is an off time.

Dave

[erfinder]

erfinder,
Some of what you are saying is what we have seen with the 3BGS setup. When an off the shelf motor is run between two positives, the motor is running as a generator even while it is running as a motor, and the output of the motor is always greater than the input. This is ESPECIALLY apparent with ANY kind of pulse motor where there is an off time.

Dave

Sure it is, we have been on the same page for a long time. Our perspectives are different, and as such, we approach the subject from what appears to be vastly different directions. I was always interested in the 3BGS, but took a real interest only after reading a few posts which were suggesting "magnetic polarity reversals" and the mechanism which responsible for their manifestation a idea which I was deeply involved in at the time. No one had an answer which satisfied me, and my answer at the time didn't satisfy anyone doing the bench work.

I will repeat this, there is never a time when the machine is not functioning as a generator. Off time then specifically relates to the motor, and or transformer functions.

Saying the machine is placed between two positives says nothing to me. What others need you to indicate is what relation this source connection method has to the induced! The off the shelf motor does function, however, as I am sure you are well aware, better results will be had when the "proper" geometry is found and utilized.

For what its worth, in my experience, generator action within any magneto electric machine is always lower than and cannot exceed the supply, the reason behind this is well known. The only exception to the rule that I have found is when transformer action is properly phase associated to the generator action and used to augment the induced, how you choose to do this is the art.


Regards

[shylo]

"the coils are always generating" Do coils that are causing rotation ,either from attraction or repulsion , cause generation.
Is it this generation that causes the drag , because it's the opposite polarity of the input.
Equal and opposite?
The output is always less , in a single point of collection, but you can collect at many different levels of the generation?
I have 6 brushes 2 for repulsion drive , 2 for attraction , and 2 for collection,Only 1 gen brush gives me good results ,the other costs me.
Maybe it's the brush in attraction mode?
Tried a couple different coils today , but nothing worth mentioning.
Generating coils produce magnetic fields, motoring coils produce fields, I'm trying to join them so they help each other.
artv

[Turion]

When I was referring to the 3BGS and running the motor between the positives, I was talking about two batteries wired in series with the positive of a motor connected to the positive side of this arrangement. The negative of the motor is connected to the positive side of a third battery and the negative of that third battery is connected to the negative lead of the two batteries wired in series. So the motor is connected to two positives.

As to a motor/generator.....as long as the shaft on a motor is turning, it is acting as a generator. When there is no input of energy to the windings it becomes a more EFFICIENT generator because its output is not opposed by the energy we are trying to cram into it.

I have always wondered if there were a way to switch the power to the motor on and off so quickly that the generated output wouldn't even see the input, or if the input could be at such a unique frequency that the two could exist on the same wire at the same time without one seeing the other. Or better yet, if we could transmit one form of power down the wire while receiving the other form of power from the space surrounding the wire rather than from the wire itself, now THAT would be interesting. When we learn to do EITHER of those, we have the answer we have all been looking for.

I had this discussion at one time about the difference between generated power in a motor and the ADDITIONAL power of the collapsing coil's magnetic field, because they are definitely different, and the reason we can get more out than we put in if we know what we are doing. Timing is everything, but so is the topology of the motor construction. Speaking of that, here is a handy reference page with some of the basic circuits that we are all using that new people might be interested in. Or not.
Topology Fundamentals - Electronics 101

Dave

[erfinder]

"the coils are always generating" Do coils that are causing rotation ,either from attraction or repulsion , cause generation.

There is generator action taking place in the motor coil, yes. Under normal circumstances it limits the current being supplied to the motor. It doesn't matter if the system is operating in attraction or repulsion mode. I don't prescribe to either, but I do understand the logic of those who took the time to point out the difference for those interested. I prefer, and recommend the path of least magnetic opposition, the orthogonal, where both attraction and repulsion are used simultaneously.

Is it this generation that causes the drag , because it's the opposite polarity of the input.
Equal and opposite?

I don't claim to know the cause of drag, what I can say is that it always manifests in those situations where one allows a secondary magnetic field to manifest and in so doing, negatively influence the inducer. This process is summed up rather well by Lenz. The thing that most forget to take note of is the "instance" of switch closure. For maximum torque in a motor the magnetic fields need to be quadrature. This means 90°, the problem with this is this relation puts the induced potential in opposition to the applied. Think, each time you close the switch you do so at the peak of the generator action!

Nothing equal opposite about this situation, the generated voltage, CEMF, is lower than the applied. If we had an equal opposite situation, the motor would stop, no current would flow because induced and applied EMF are equal.

The output is always less , in a single point of collection, but you can collect at many different levels of the generation?

"Single point of collection" this doesn't sound like a generator, it sounds like a pulse motor. If you are referring to a pulsed generator (coil shorting) please say so. If not, I require clarification.

I have 6 brushes 2 for repulsion drive , 2 for attraction , and 2 for collection,Only 1 gen brush gives me good results ,the other costs me.
Maybe it's the brush in attraction mode?
Tried a couple different coils today , but nothing worth mentioning.
Generating coils produce magnetic fields, motoring coils produce fields, I'm trying to join them so they help each other.
artv

If you are going to do repulsion and attraction, separately.....consider configuring so that you can use them at the same time.....it just makes more sense. Doing so lets you recover one to one from the collapsing field and, if you are configured for it, you can also collect the CEMF, or generator action proper. Please do not confuse the collapsing magnetic field with CEMF, they are not the same. We are justified in calling the collapsing field CEMF, but it is not the same as CEMF induced by a magnet passing a coil, we are talking about two totally different voltage inducing mechanisms.

Regarding what you have tried and plan on trying. I can only say, good luck, its important that we have an almost crystal clear idea of what we want in our mind, and can pretty much predict the result we want. If this is not the case, don't build.

Generating coils produce magnetic fields, and motoring coils produce magnetic fields, whats the common denominator? The answer is a no brainier, the answer also reveals that all magneto electric machines are in essence.....generators, motoring can be interpreted as being a form of generator biasing.

These are my opinions, my views, they work for me, I am not looking for anyone's acceptance or approval of my ideas.


Regards