Your Basic Coil

[gotoluc]

Its kinda ridiculous to expect that the prime mover has anything to do with the efficiency of the generator. They are 2 separate objects.

Matt

Yes, I fully agree Matt that the prime mover has nothing to do with the efficiency of a generator.
Imagine if the prime mover is an internal combustion dinosaur fuel engine which is 30% efficient at best!... how badly your generator efficiency would start off being

All the best

Luc

[gotoluc]

Matt
I could not get your link to the Howard Johnson generator patent to work.
Thanks.

This link should work: https://www.google.com/patents/US3668585

Luc

[rosehillworks]

This link should work: https://www.google.com/patents/US3668585

Luc

Thank you that worked.

[Matthew Jones]

Yes, I fully agree Matt that the prime mover has nothing to do with the efficiency of a generator.
Imagine if the prime mover is an internal combustion dinosaur fuel engine which is 30% efficient at best!... how badly your generator efficiency would start off being

All the best

Luc

Thats exactly the point, If it was wind, your generator would be infinitely efficient even if you turned 10k watts of wind to 1 watt.

A conventional Alternator/generator can be calculated on the materials and turns,and the only way to rate the efficiency, because it is going to loose, is the difference between what its supposed to put out and what it is putting out.

The two types are completely different and to try to attempt to rate them equally is ridiculous.

Matt

[shylo]

measurements

Hi guys,
I'm not sure I know how to do proper measurements.
What I did was run my motor on a full charged battery till it went dead. It took 1 hour and 3 mins.
I then ran again ,but with a load attached to the generating brushes, it still ran the same length of time, but also ran the load. So the load was free?
I then ran again with a bigger load, but now the battery died in half the time.
So I overloaded the gen part right?
The batteries are 18 volt cordless drill, rated for 27wh, they read 20.5 volts when fully charged, the load that didn't make a difference was only reading 6 volts and .3amps, so 1.8 watts, right?
Tried running a secondary magnetic field today , I'll try again tomorrow.
If you wind 2 generators interacting with a single magnet core or rotor,will their opposing forces cancel each other, that is if 1 is opposite wind pattern then the other ,but seeing the same polarity from the magnet rotor?
artv

[Farmhand]

The efficiency is for the motor-generator not just the generator head.

The generator cannot spin itself to produce any power at all so by itself it has no efficiency.

If I only need to calculate the efficiency of the generator itself as is done here then we can all have OU can't we ?

In that case I have already shown OU.

To determine the efficiency of the Generator only you will need to determine
the input to the generator while there is a load attached, not the difference in
input to the prime mover or the input to the prime mover, as well as the output
of course.

Am I to assume that any reduction in input power or increase in rpm with no
increase in input power when a load is connected is OU ? That's easy.

When determining the efficiency of a fuel/petrol powered generator can we just completely ignore the fact that we need to put fuel in it ?

Energy Efficiency

Generating Efficiency

Link. Energy Efficiency

Electric power plant efficiency η is defined as the ratio between the useful electricity output from the generating unit, in a specific time, and the energy value of the energy source supplied to the unit in the same time period.

..
Cognitive Dissonance is a strong factor here it seems.

If you run a motor/generator and the prime mover is consuming 190 Watts
while the generator is outputting 40 Watts and you call that OU you are delusional.
If you run a motor generator and the prime mover is using more power than
the generator head is outputting and you call it OU you are delusional.

To get OU the generator head needs to outputting more power than the prime mover is consuming otherwise there is a net loss of power and under unity.

..

[gotoluc]

If I only need to calculate the efficiency of the generator itself as is done here then we can all have OU can't we ?

In that case I have already shown OU.

Dear Farmhand,

In the above post #73 I have clearly explained how to measure a generator being turned by an electric motor and when one can claim OU.

Now you claim you already have OU so please show us a demo using my formula.

Am I to assume that any reduction in input power or increase in rpm with no
increase in input power when a load is connected is OU ? That's easy.

No, it's not like that.
Can you show the post where this is said?

Kind regards and looking forward to your OU demo

Luc

[Farmhand]

Dear Farmhand,

In the above post #73 I have clearly explained how to measure a generator being turned by an electric motor and when one can claim OU.

Now you claim you already have OU so please show us a demo using my formula.



No, it's not like that.
Can you show the post where this is said?

Kind regards and looking forward to your OU demo

Luc

I did not say you said that.

You do not make the rules for how to determine generator efficiency.
..

Basically you are saying in that post that if the input is 40 Watts and the output goes over 40 Watts you have OU which is what I said but I do not agree that the coils can have 100 % efficiency in real life. Care to show that ?

Nobody has even come close to showing more output than input have they ?
And that includes Thane.
..

P.S. I do agree that if the generator head output is genuinely equal to the
input to the generators prime mover then you can suspect OU.

[gotoluc]

I did not say you said that.

Then who said that, because it's what you wrote, no?

You do not make the rules for how to determine generator efficiency.

Then who does?... you?... what is it that you don't agree with in my guidelines?

Basically you are saying in that post that if the input is 40 Watts and the output goes over 40 Watts you have OU which is what I said but I do not agree that the coils can have 100 % efficiency in real life. Care to show that ?

Yes, it will be demonstrate soon but keep in mind I don't want to take over this topic. Dave and Matt have been working on this for some time and deserve recognition and a little more time.

Nobody has even come close to showing more output than input have they ?
And that includes Thane.
..

That's true, it has not been properly demonstrated but it may in time.

Kind regards

Luc

[Farmhand]

Hi Guys, When I put a load that requires more watts than I'm inputting , I get rpm increase but greater amp draw from supply , If I put a load on, that uses less watts than inputting , the rpm's and the amp draw stay the same, so the load runs for free.
I still use power to run the motor/gen ,but get the output from gen coils as an added bonus.
Currently trying different coils with the big magnet rotor attached to the motor/gen, to get even more free output.
What I'm seeing is don't overload the gens capability.
artv

See above.

no I don't make the rules. I provided one link to page and there are many more.

Cutting through the Cr*# I think you agree with me and I agree with you
that if the generator outputs more power (including waste) than is being
input to the prime mover them there is over 100% efficiency.

It's a very simple concept to grasp. Both common sense and logic tell me
that unless there is more power/energy being output than is being input then
the efficiency of the generator plant is less than 100%.

..

[Matthew Jones]

Nobody has even come close to showing more output than input have they ?
And that includes Thane.
..

No but what he showed was an alternator that didn't consume anything to produce power. Regardless of your interpretation.

We know that has no validity your very small minded world. You express that fact every chance you get to the point of being obsessive. You insult anyone and everyone who wants to look and At every opportunity and you downgrade any hope for a solution even at the smallest level. Why? Is it so much better than screwing your hand?

Get a life...Go away. Your like a cockroach. Worthless brown gooey material on the bottom of a shoe. You stink with your pessimism and worthlessness. Leave the good people alone to there "Cognitive Dissonance" and go be high and mighty with your chickens.

Nothing ventured Nothing gained. How dare you interrupt that.

And for anybody else who trying, keep it up.

[Mario]

Farmhand I can't believe after all this time you still don't know the difference between efficiency and COP!

Cutting through the Cr*# I think you agree with me and I agree with you
that if the generator outputs more power (including waste) than is being
input to the prime mover them there is over 100% efficiency.

WRONG!

The prime mover has it's efficiency and the generator has it's efficiency. Comparing prime mover input with the output of the generator is this system's COP, not efficiency. If you don't know what COP means go read it up somewhere.
Now I hope we don't have to waste more thread space about this basic BS, and focus on what's important.

Mario

[shylo]

Hi Farmhand, I know that what I have is not efficient , it is just for expiermenting .
But why did the 1.8 watt load not reduce the run time of the motor?

Also I told Dave earlier that placing a coil 90deg. to the rotor magnets ,caused no drag, I was Wrong.
A single test coil showed no drag or increase in amp draw, when dead shorted. With 12 coils in place I am seeing drag when loaded.
I think the coils have to be placed so that when they produce the opposite field that causes drag ,it should be directed towards another coil producing an opposite field to cause cancellation.
You can read all you want how to ride a bike , but until you get on it and try, you'll never learn how.
artv

[Turion]

Air Core Coils

At 1850 rpm, what measurement can you take that will tell you whether or not the prime mover will slow down, speed up, or remain the same with an air core coil that is under load when that coil is exposed to a rotating magnet? And what should your meter read when you make that measurement? Matt knows. At a specific reading, the prime mover will not change when the coil is loaded. Below that reading, it will speed up. Above that reading, it will slow down.

(We believe the EXACT same relationship applies to iron core coils, to ferrite core coils, to black sand core coils to silly putty core coils. There is a NUMBER you need to see on your meter, and for DIFFERENT CORE MATERIALS, it is a DIFFERENT number, but that's for another discussion)

But we should begin with air core coils. Why? Because we haven't taken advantage of what they give us.... a rotor that turns with almost no drag. And if adding coils, thousands of them if necessary, doesn't cause the prime mover to slow down, why WOULDN'T you want to use air core. You're going to get SOME slow down of the prime mover if you have thousands of coils, because the copper in the wire, if there is enough of it, will affect the prime mover too, so you need to know how to wind SOME coils that will speed the prime mover UP when they are loaded. Air core coils don't put out as much, but they are certainly simple, and no magnetic attraction of the rotor magnets to the cores to deal with.

How do you know that your rotor is speeding up under load. Well, in MY BOOK, you run your prime mover attached to your rotor with NO COILS IN PLACE at a specific rpm with a specific voltage and amperage input. I call this a BASELINE. Now SOME people on THIS THREAD have argued that baselines are pointless. I would argue that they can tell you EXACTLY what you've got. Because if I add a coil to that setup and the motor does not change in rpm, voltage intake or amp draw, I know i have something interesting. If I can continue to add coils and get the output of those coils with no change in the voltage, amp draw or rpm's of the prime mover, I get excited. When the output of the coils then surpasses the input to the prime mover, I REALLY believe I have something. In fact, I KNOW I do.

Have I seen this? In a word, yes. But I haven't tried it with AIR CORE coils yet.

So get your air core coil out and figure out what it takes to make it speed up under load.

[bistander]

Hi guys,
I'm not sure I know how to do proper measurements.
What I did was run my motor on a full charged battery till it went dead. It took 1 hour and 3 mins.
I then ran again ,but with a load attached to the generating brushes, it still ran the same length of time, but also ran the load. So the load was free?
I then ran again with a bigger load, but now the battery died in half the time.
So I overloaded the gen part right?
The batteries are 18 volt cordless drill, rated for 27wh, they read 20.5 volts when fully charged, the load that didn't make a difference was only reading 6 volts and .3amps, so 1.8 watts, right?

Hi shylo,

I used to test motors and generators for a living and can shed a few facts your way, but I'll leave it to you and others to draw the conclusions.

If your battery was fully charged at the start of the test and completely empty at the end, and actually had delivered 27Wh of energy, then, on average for the 1.05 hours duration, you were using 25.7W of power.

When you run at no-load, machine efficiency is Power Out / Power In * 100%. So Power Out is zero (the definition of no-load) and Power In is 25.7W, so Efficiency = 0 / 25.7W * 100% = 0%. 25.7W is wasted power (heat).

When you hook up an electrical load of 1.8W, and the input power remains the same, then the machine efficiency is 1.8W / 25.7W * 100% = 7%. 23.9W are lost or wasted as heat and 1.8W are delivered to your load.

Obviously you used 25.7W to get 1.8W, so in that sense it is costly. But if you were otherwise running the machine for some other reason and tacked on the 1.8W load, then it looks like a free ride. You decide.

bi