Magnet motor revelation

[BroMikey]

Hey Turion

Yes I made my diagram to soon and knew I was getting the cart before

the horse knowing that picking over the Mack quotes should be first and

for most. It's just that I knew I would make a mess of putting his posted

thoughts in chronological order. You did that far better because you

are much more advanced in magnet motor design. I depend on your

help and look for your lead.

I read some of this MACK info again and this prompted me to change

the stator magnet polarity on the attraction side and the rotor polarity

as well. Next it looks like I need to be moving a rotor magnet off center.

Now I have a starting place and will continue to think on this till I have

settled on how this works. Later I'll have a magnet motor I can run

power off of

You are in the lead Sir.

[Turion]

Nothing wrong with your diagram so far. Just needs things added to it. I have been over and over and over the information that has been presented and there is at least one critical question I do not yet have an answer for.

The ramps are between the stator magnets. There is a magnet on the ramps and a shunt on the repelling magnet. But is the magnet on the ramp the stator magnet, or are there stator magnets in ADDITION to the magnets on the ramps? This question is never clearly answered in any statement made so far, and I didn't ask when I had the chance.

If you read exactly what was written he said to "balance the 2 magnets on the rotors with the 2 magnets on the stator" and THEN add a ramp, but he also said a "repelling magnet at the end of a curved ramp on the stator." For now my assumption is that there are two magnets on the rotor and two magnets on the curved ramps that make up the stator. Of course I am probably wrong.

Dave

[BroMikey]

Well the way it is bouncing around in my head is this. Mack spent

sometime focusing on balancing the repulsive and attraction forcing

and then he would refer us to the Bedini version, correct? Not only

that we should balance between the two forces but also that one

force is stronger than the other. So Mack gave us a pointer to move

the stronger force side that is the rotor magnet over so as to be

able to accomplish this balancing act. Now after all of this instruction

of balancing and saying the bedini version is close, I can't see where he

is setting us up to add more magnets all around the circle in the end.

He has been telling us to balance forces first then go from there.

Once the balancing is done and the near zero cogging Mack is saying

that we then can go on to stage two.


Thats how I heard Mack. Also that the ramps curve away from the rotor.

I need to go back and read many times. If my thinking changes as I

reread this session of hints, I will be back.

Thanks Dave.


MACK QUOTE:

We are restricted to the single rotor and stator magnet for magnetic sources, and we have the ramp itself. No other magnets or mechanical mechanisms are available

[Mario]

Hi all,

attached just a rough hand drawing. Not included is the distance between a stator magnet and the next ramp, (in case of more than 2 setups around the motor), which should be equal to 1.5 - 2 times the distance between rotor magnet and ramp at the widest point.

I have not added the bent down part of the ramp as I'm having a hard time getting Madmacks last part. The induced poles are clear but some sentences I'm struggling with.
If you move (slide) a magnet over an iron bar with a spacer in between the only forces I see are:

-attraction towards the bar as the magnet approaches it

-constant force as you slide along

-magnet attracted back as it wants to leave the bar

I can't see any force that wants to hold the magnet in the middle…

Mario

[shylo]

Hi All, If you take a flat piece of steel, put a ring or cylinder magnet on it at one end , the magnet will roll past the middle of the length of steel(due to momentum) , but it will return and come to rest in the middle.
I think Mac uses the momentum caused by the pivoting ramp to pull the magnet past the middle and then some how lets go?
I always tried with only rotating magnets and stationary levers, I never thought of stationary magnets.
Starting to think I might have missed something, I think I'll give it another try.
Keep the idea's coming , even if they aren't right ,they make you think.
Thanks artv

[Turion]

Mario,
According to MY understanding, that's the most accurate drawing I have seen of what we need to build. The entire mechanism of the ramp plus stator magnet can occupy no more than 45% of of the circumference of the circle created by the stator, and might need to be just a little LESS, probably about 40-43%, otherwise the beginning of the next ramp will touch the magnet at the end of the first ramp, and we can't have THAT.

If this works, here is my understanding of the how and the why of it. You would have to give the device a push to start, but as the two magnets on the rotor rotate, they are attracted to the steel at the beginning of the ramp. The physical design of the ramp causes the magnets to accelerate to the point where one magnet is in attraction mode and the other is in repulsion mode. There is a shunt on the repulsion mode magnet which allows the attraction mode just a slight bit more reactive force. (I believe from MY experimenting that attraction is STRONGER than repulsion so you many not even NEED a shunt, but we will see) So this tiny extra bit of attraction vs repulsion PLUS the momentum of the two rotating magnets carries the attracting magnet on the rotor PAST the attracting magnet on the stator. (If these 2 magnets are too close together, this will NOT happen, so spacing is critical.) This gets us past the "sticky point". Now we have the repulsion of the two magnets on the opposite side pushing the two magnets apart and the attraction (stronger) trying to reverse the direction of the rotor. But momentum won't let that happen. In ADDITION, you now have the attraction of BOTH rotor magnets to the new beginning of the next set of steel ramps. Repulsion+attraction to ramp+attraction to ramp + momentum is greater than attraction of magnet to magnet. So the rotor continues to turn and the process repeats.

As you can see from this example, there are many things that have to be EXACTLY right for it to accelerate. The rake of the ramp must speed up the rotating magnets enough to give them the momentum to get past the two magnets attracting each other. The distance between the two attracting magnets must be enough that their attraction does not stop the forward progress of the rotor.

Another thought I have had as I have looked at this is that you might want STRONGER magnets on the rotor that are equal in force to each other, and weaker magnets on the stator that are equal to each other. This would give you MORE attraction of the rotor to the ramps, and thus MORE acceleration, yet the same attraction and repulsion at the end of the ramp to get past the sticky point.

Anyway, those are my thoughts at this point. I am playing with a small version of this right now. I don't have pieces of steel that are thicker at one end than the other to use as my stator ramps, so I cut wood into the curved shape I wanted and bent some strip steel into the same curved shape and screwed it to the wood. Still getting it all put together. Will shoot some video when I have something reasonable to show that I am actually BUILDING this thing. Oh, Lowes has some small square ceramic magnets with holes in the center you might use to create a working model. I have a bunch in my drawer. I will be trying them out to see what I can see before I order a bunch of expensive magnets. I also have a TON of even smaller neos that I could stick on those ceramic magnets to increase their power if necessary.

Dave

[Mario]

Mario,
According to MY understanding, that's the most accurate drawing I have seen of what we need to build. The entire mechanism of the ramp plus stator magnet can occupy no more than 45% of of the circumference of the circle created by the stator, and might need to be just a little LESS, probably about 40-43%, otherwise the beginning of the next ramp will touch the magnet at the end of the first ramp, and we can't have THAT.

I think MadMack said his was 30 degrees in an 8 pole motor, I may be wrong, but what's important is that the distance between stator magnet and the next ramp is 1.5 - 2 times the distance between ramp and rotor magnet at its widest point.

If this works, here is my understanding of the how and the why of it. You would have to give the device a push to start, but as the two magnets on the rotor rotate, they are attracted to the steel at the beginning of the ramp. The physical design of the ramp causes the magnets to accelerate to the point where one magnet is in attraction mode and the other is in repulsion mode. There is a shunt on the repulsion mode magnet which allows the attraction mode just a slight bit more reactive force. (I believe from MY experimenting that attraction is STRONGER than repulsion so you many not even NEED a shunt, but we will see) So this tiny extra bit of attraction vs repulsion PLUS the momentum of the two rotating magnets carries the attracting magnet on the rotor PAST the attracting magnet on the stator. (If these 2 magnets are too close together, this will NOT happen, so spacing is critical.) This gets us past the "sticky point". Now we have the repulsion of the two magnets on the opposite side pushing the two magnets apart and the attraction (stronger) trying to reverse the direction of the rotor. But momentum won't let that happen. In ADDITION, you now have the attraction of BOTH rotor magnets to the new beginning of the next set of steel ramps. Repulsion+attraction to ramp+attraction to ramp + momentum is greater than attraction of magnet to magnet. So the rotor continues to turn and the process repeats.

As you can see from this example, there are many things that have to be EXACTLY right for it to accelerate. The rake of the ramp must speed up the rotating magnets enough to give them the momentum to get past the two magnets attracting each other. The distance between the two attracting magnets must be enough that their attraction does not stop the forward progress of the rotor.

this is why I have also added the shunt AFTER the attracting magnets to help this, like MadMack explained.

Another thought I have had as I have looked at this is that you might want STRONGER magnets on the rotor that are equal in force to each other, and weaker magnets on the stator that are equal to each other. This would give you MORE attraction of the rotor to the ramps, and thus MORE acceleration, yet the same attraction and repulsion at the end of the ramp to get past the sticky point.

Anyway, those are my thoughts at this point. I am playing with a small version of this right now. I don't have pieces of steel that are thicker at one end than the other to use as my stator ramps, so I cut wood into the curved shape I wanted and bent some strip steel into the same curved shape and screwed it to the wood. Still getting it all put together. Will shoot some video when I have something reasonable to show that I am actually BUILDING this thing. Oh, Lowes has some small square ceramic magnets with holes in the center you might use to create a working model. I have a bunch in my drawer. I will be trying them out to see what I can see before I order a bunch of expensive magnets. I also have a TON of even smaller neos that I could stick on those ceramic magnets to increase their power if necessary.

Dave

Mario

[Stealth]

I think many of you are missing the point. If your magnets are not equal in strength,( and they do vary quite a bit even if they are identical), then it will be extremely hard to balance your attraction and repulsion. The only other variables is the distance at which the magnets are positioned. You can balance your system by moving the attraction magnet closer or farther away. You can also balance by moving the ramps closer or farther away. Some of these things are only determined by experimentation. I think that is what he is saying, to play around with a two magnet rotor and stator to determine the relationship between the two forces. ONLY after you achieve balance and no cogging(sticky point), then move to the next stage. When I have time I will build this configuration and determine the parameters of it. I know it will work, as John Bedini's motor works. As it becomes more complicated when more magnets and ramps are used is when you will see a real force to power a generator or m3chanical devices. Good Luck. stealth

[Turion]

Stealth,
All the rotor magnets should be as close to the same as possible. All the stator magnets should be as close to the same as possible.

In my OPINION (not fact) it is not necessary that the rotor magnets and the stator magnets be EQUAL in attraction or repulsion to each other. In fact, there may be some advantages to them NOT being the same, for instance a strong attraction of the rotor magnet to the ramp, while the stator magnet at the end of the ramp is weaker, allowing the rotor magnet to fly by. I'm not sure about that, but it does make a kind of sense to me. Weaker magnets could allow for steep, short ramps with weaker magnets in very CLOSE proximity to the rotor magnets without a terrible amount of attraction to provide a sticky point. At least this has been my experience on OTHER builds. As long as the attraction between two magnets on one side is balanced with the repulsion of the two magnets on the opposite side.

MadMack may be the only one who can say for sure....until some models get built.

Dave

[Ufopolitics]

My apologies for the previous two cents...

Hello Guys,

Ok, I re read the whole thing again, went through that book...uploaded pics and so on so forth...

Dragon you are right, I had a fully repulse motor previously..just like Bedini (Not BeNdini Tachyoncatcher...)

I believe MadMack is trying for Us to define a "Single Module" first, based on Two Poles which we need to perfectly balance to zero magnetic cogging - dragging...

First off, Attraction and Repulsion are Two completely different forces, and just based on the "Traveling Distance" of each one's Vectors...Attraction has a "Dead Point" , a Dead End where it DIES and rotor will stick...while Repulsion has NO Dead End...infinite I would say as long as the forces are present and a relative distance maintained.

Based on the above fact...We can not just treat both forces in a perfectly "Symmetrical" disposition (mirrored 180ş apart) Stators related to Rotor magnets, and be able to ever obtain a balance that way...I don't know if everyone understand my point...so I made the following CAD:

[IMG][/IMG]

If you all notice the Stator (Magnet and Ramp) on the Attract side is slightly moved towards rotation sense...in order that Repulse force and attract force would be traveling around same timing and not attraction setting a brake on rotation before Repulse Force starts decreasing just because both stators were identically set in a Symmetrical way...

We could even "Delay" the Attract Dead Point (Brake applied, Sticky Point, etc) by turning that Ramp the other way around like below:

[IMG][/IMG]

In conclusion...IMHO if we set both stators perfectly aligned with each rotor magnets at 180ş (in line) we will never be able to pass the dead end lock on the attract side...remember that both rotor magnets are identical in strength...however, no matter how strong repulsion would be...once a couple of Neo´s N-S Locks in...no way jose they would be broken apart by repulse forces.

Hope this would be of some help...to keep playing with little magnetic motors...

Ufopolitics



EDIT 1:

There is a mistake in the 30ş rotation angle from rotor magnets on above Diagrams...I did not consider the main center line bisecting both poles but the side or Bloch Wall...so they are less inclined.

[BroMikey]

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''


I don't have pieces of steel that are thicker at one end than the other to use as my stator ramps

Dave

Eventually we will all need some form of iron that can be used for ramps

that can be made exactly the same for each arm. Lamination of thin

metal is how transformers have been made so as not to acquire a build

up of magnetism when coils induce a magnetic field into the metal

all day long as it runs. Identical parts.

Also the thin pieces would all be easily cut the same and then pressed

together in the form or desired shape. Of course we all know that, I am

making sure that those who peer into this discussion realize that just any

steel would ultimately become more and more magnetic as the motor

ran and begin to slow down and then stop.


The only iusse left would be how to cut thin strips of lamination say from

an old M.O.T. without leaving a masses burr that would inhibit alignment

of the stack of parts.

[kenssurplus]

set ramp positions vs dynamic

Hi All, If I understand Mack's method correctly, I believe the pivoting ramps are only moved to control speed (prevent runaway accel), and to shut down or turn off the motor. I don't think that they are free to move around during operation.

As usual, What do I know? I am not the one sharing the knowledge of a working device here.

[tachyoncatcher]

Additional comment scrutiny

UFO, thanks for the spell check. I believe Mack was referencing a more symmetrical form between the rotor and stator magnets than you represent by his statement:

The rotor inertia carries the rotor magnet fully under and slightly past the attracting stator magnets center line. At this same instant, the rotor magnet at the opposite side, 180 degrees away has traveled slightly past the center line of the repelling stator magnet...

RE: Repelling stator magnet ramp.
Macks comments in this area lead to the impression he was using some kind of mechanical shunts. I refer to this:

...Remember how I said that as a rotor magnet is accelerating towards an attracting magnet, the repelling magnets at the opposite side were neutralizing the pull of the attracting magnet? A shunt on the repelling stator magnet similar to the Bedini drawing will kill some of this neutralization and add to the torque. You only need the neutralizing action of the repelling magnets after they pass their center lines. Any neutralizing affect you can eliminate before that point is beneficial. Likewise reducing back drag attraction on the attracting set, with a shunt on the other side of this magnet from its ramp, can also benefit....

RE: Stator Magnets
No where, that I can find does Mack say the stator magnet's magnetic axis should be aligned with the rotor axle. He does say early on that his motor was similar to the Bedini drawing Dave posted, but that the ramps and shunting was different. He expressed the different angle for the rotor magnets, but never referenced the stator magnet angles. Guess that one is up to experimentation. -- Correction -- See Post #50. Experimentation is recommended on angle and distance starting from rotor axle alignment.

Good Luck,

Randy

[Ufopolitics]

RE: Stator Magnets
No where, that I can find does Mack say the stator magnet's magnetic axis should be aligned with the rotor axle. He does say early on that his motor was similar to the Bedini drawing Dave posted, but that the ramps and shunting was different. He expressed the different angle for the rotor magnets, but never referenced the stator magnet angles. Guess that one is up to experimentation.

Good Luck,

Randy

Re read Mack's post #50...

Take care

Ufopolitics

[Turion]

kenssurplus,
I believe you are right. They pivot ONLY so you can make adjustments and are then locked in place while the rotor is turning.

Dave