Magnet motor revelation

[MadMack]

I have thought long and hard about revealing the results of my magnet motor experiments but time is my enemy and time is growing short. I want to get this information out before it's too late so I wish to present to you a simple concept for a successful magnet motor. It is a basic rule of nature and that rule is balance. Yin and yang. There is symmetry in nature wherever you look.

This is a pure magnet motor without electrical coils. It seems that everyone claims you can not have a pure magnet motor because you can not get past the sticky point. Well, you can, and it is relatively easy to do. All you have to do is set up your magnets for a net 0 magnetic pull. That means for every set of magnets that are in attraction you simply provide a set that is in repulsion. Think about that, as one rotor / stator magnet set is attracting each other, there is another set that are repelling each other. The two forces cancel each other. How simple.

Now the dubunkers are probably already typing their reply calling me an idiot because no magnet motor could possibly run without magnetic attraction! Well, you must have magnetic attraction so where does it come from? It comes from iron ramps between the stator magnets. You have all seen Bedinis picture that shows the 4 magnets on the rotor and a repelling magnet at the end of a curved ramp on the stator. There is the basic concept in all its simplicity. What isn't shown is an opposing ramp with it's attracting magnets for balance. Other than that, the principles are all there including a useful magnetic shunt on the stator magnet. See? It's not even my idea, I just applied symmetry to it. The only tricky part is maintaining the magnetic symmetry at the end of the ramps next to the magnets.

The next thing is to build one of these that has significant torque. Torque can be improved by altering the vector of the magnetic pull. You do this by placing the rotor magnet so its magnetic axis is not through the center line of the rotor shaft. The torque given by the magnet as the rotor turns is also related to the rate of change in distance between the rotor magnet and the ramp. Short ramps will provide more torque than long ramps. Shaft torque can also be multiplied with gear or pulley reduction, obviously.

One set of magnets every 45 degrees works well. Magnets at 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees in attraction. Magnets at 45, 135, 225, and 315 degrees in repulsion. This balances the side forces to the rotor shaft and stator housing. Magnet pairs every 60 degrees will also work.

Other details:
The magnets on the rotor all have the same polarity facing out to the stator.
There must be an equal number of magnet sets in attraction and repulsion at the same time.
The ramps pivot at their center lines. This provides a means to throttle, stop, or reverse the motor rotation.
The ramps are steel with little or no magnetic retention.
I used square or rectangular magnets, not round.
The rotor and stator are nonmagnetic material. Do not use aluminum or any material that will develop eddy currents.

One thing I have not tried is a second set of ramps on the rotor that could possibly double the torque.

It is easy to build one of these motors that will not work. With a little experimentation and careful attention to detail you can build one that does work.

There it is. All of it. Now I can rest with a clear conscience. You can take it at face value or not, your choice.

Best regards to all of you,
Mack

[kenssurplus]

Dilution of the message

Mack, thank you for sharing your information.

I am sorry that you will now have to endure the efforts to dilute and distract your message. To help preserve the purity of what you are trying to present, please consider attaching an appropriately modified picture to your post. Your description, I think is understandable to me, but may leave others in the dark still, especially if left to the dilution and distraction team, with no clarification.

Thank you again for your thoughtful release of information, and concern for the survival of knowledge as well as concern for other people. This type of thinking and attitude is becomming much more rare today.

Ken

[BroMikey]

Apology to MadMack

I had moved the magnet motor (Other Revelation) to another

magnet motor revelation thread.

All clear, over and out. Snoopy feels better this way, like he

did something right for a change.

[Matthew Jones]

Hi MadMack,

Thanks for sharing that idea. I also think I understand what you have described but I have been wrong before. So if you can post a picture of what your system looks like it would be much easier to see if we understand it.

Thanks again,
Carroll

I would like to see a blue print of the idea as well as a picture, if its built. I have done a lot of work with the idea of a permanent magnetic motor but no sustained motion as of yet.

Oh ya, you can add people like BroMikey to your ignore list then posting feels alot easier. No clutter of ignorance. In fact I can give you a list of people to ignore if you would like it.

Cheers
Matt

[Turion]

MadMack,
I have built a NUMBER of attempts at a permanent magnetic motor, and early on I went down the same road regarding attraction and repulsion of the magnets offsetting each other, but still have not been able to come up with a working design. So I would be extremely interested in anything further you want to share. Pictures or video would be especially helpful if you have something you have already built.

I will say that what I ran into is that the repulsion force between two magnets does not SEEM to be equal in "force" to the attraction force of the same exact two magnets. Is this your experience, or have you seen something different or been able to compensate for the difference? Any help you could've would be sincerely appreciated. I have two drawers in my work bench filled with magnets. One is full of neos and the other filled with ceramic, so I could probably build about anything with a working drawing.

By the way, the doubters will come out of the woodwork soon. The easiest way to shut them up is to show a working device. Pretty hard to argue with THAT, although they will still claim there are hidden motors or whatever.

Dave

[Mario]

Hi MadMack,

thank you for sharing. I've made attempts at this in the past so I'm interested of course. From what you wrote I think I get what you are describing, although I'm more of a visual person, so even just a hand drawing of the setup would mean much more to me than words.

I'm not asking to show a working model, as even a video could be faked and the spooks would spam this thread with all kinds of arguments against it…
One can only prove it to himself on the bench and I'm more than willing to try if I see a drawing. Thanks in advance.

Mario

[Stealth]

Although I haven't built this exact configuration, I have designed and built hundreds of magnetic motors, as well as gravity motors over the years. Many have shown promise of being self running designs. Only when energy is extracted from these designs do they cease operating. Without a larger COP, they are really just toys. I have found that to get to that plateau of larger COP I needed to incorporate another form of energy, gravity, electric, solar, etc. With two operating systems in place if the design is sound the it is possible to get to that plateau of higher COP. If you have a pure magnetic motor design that produces enough COP to extract energy from that would be awesome. Even a 1 watt of energy extraction would make it feasible to build a larger unit to extract more energy. Good Luck with your design and I do hope you will share more information as you feel comfortable in doing so. stealth

[HuntingRoss]

I'm not even certain I have grasped what is being discussed here, but if I have, it sounds like the magnetic shielding proposed in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUcWn1x3Tss

I have tried this particular demo and it sticks. My thought is there is a problem with the shield as the magnets try to sweep past. My guess at a solution is a placing a small coil at the shield which could be pulse energised to bump it past the sticking point where hopefully momentum and inertia can start to over-ride the problem.

Hunting

[charly2]

MadMack, first thanks for sharing, this is the mental image I got from your explanation, the missing part in the image is the iron ramp pivoted in the middle of it and located between stator magnets and in its correct disposition.

[ewizard]

Thanks for sharing MadMack. Ditto on needing a picture or video if possible as slight variations in interpretations can make a big difference in designs - some of which may not work. I've got a lot of magnets but all are round. Do you think that is a critical factor to have square ones?

Since MadMack posted on Sunday we may have someone with a busy work week / life so I propose patience here if he doesn't respond right away.

[MadMack]

Everyone, thank you for your interest. I'm glad to see I have the attention of some of the real builders here. If anyone can get this, it's you guys.

Charly2, yes that is what I described. Think bigger diameter & more side spacing between magnets.

Ewizard, round magnets might not make a difference but I can't say. I always used square or rectangular magnets, much easier to work with.

Everyone, I have to be very careful here because I'm bound by an NDA. I can not post the design drawings or any images and I can't reveal privileged construction details. However, anything else is fair game. I'm sure you guys can read between the lines and see my situation, and understand what I am trying to prevent.

BTW, when I write about things like this I tend to sound like I'm instructing a class of high school sophomores. Sorry, I can't seem to write any other way, so please overlook my condescending tone.

That being said.... If you are serious about looking into this be forewarned, you must be meticulous in the construction or you will fail. This has nothing to do with magnetic shielding but there may be some flux redirection involved. Later, maybe.

As Dave pointed out, it's hard to find two magnets with the exact same strength. Generally, the field varies inversely by the square of distance, at close spacing anyway, so a simple mechanical test rig can be made to determine which magnets are closest in strength. Alternately it can be used to find the weakest magnet, then to determine the distance at which the other magnets exhibit the same strength. Then you can know the clearance to use with the individual magnets. Do this with both the rotor and stator magnets before construction begins.

The closer the gap between the rotor and stator magnets the more critical the individual magnet clearances become. There is a huge difference in pull between 0.030” and 0.090” gaps. Don't forget to consider any clearance in the rotor shaft and bearings. Shoot for a tight slip fit between the bearing and shaft. Roller bearings would be a good idea I think.

If you decide to pursue this, may I suggest a two pole rig to start with? A 1” thick x 12” long flat with rectangular cross section and a shaft at dead center might make a good rotor to experiment with. One cube magnet each end on the center line, same polarity out. Now might be a good time to review the part in my first post about the rotor magnets and torque. Balance the rotor like you would a lawn mower blade. Then you could mount this parallel to another flat stock, say about 20” square, with two long stator magnets attached to it, 180 degrees and 12+” apart, N-S facing each other. With a rig like that you could try different clearances and magnet positions, etc. The first goal to achieve would be a symmetrical cancellation of magnetic drag. Balance the push and pull and get the rotor to spin past the stator magnets without magnetic drag, and without using any iron ramps.

On a side note, K&J Magnetics carries N52 neos, 1/2” cubes as well as 1/2” x 1/2” x 1” long ones, magnetized through their length. They even have the cubes with a mounting hole through their center that will accept a long machine screw if you dress the threads a little bit. Also you might be interested in looking at McMaster-Carr part number 5913K61 bearings and 1346K17 shaft.

Regards,
Mack

[Turion]

Tolerences

MadMack,
I would think that the tolerances needed for adjustment of distances to perfectly balance a rotor/staror combination like you are talking about (when magnets pull more than they push) require some pretty detailed machine work that most folks here are not going to be able to afford to have done and do not have the equipment to build on their own, so most builders have been eliminated from this project before we get out of the starting gate.

There are a few here who will probably give this a shot if they can figure out exactly WHAT it is they are trying to build. To be honest, I have not taken the time to sit down and try to "read between the lines" to figure out what to build from your written description. I was hoping you would be more forthcoming and I wouldn't HAVE to. I am lazy that way, but I understand restrictions involved with an NDA. Attached is what I believe you were talking about when you referred to John B's device, and I assume you are looking at a hybrid of that and the drawing made by Charly2. If I understand you right, there would be more than one of the "ramps" around the rotor, and your ramps would pivot in the middle. How this would work and how fits together with a stator, I am not clear on....if I am even on the right track here.

Dave

[BroMikey]

Everyone, thank you for your interest. I'm glad to see I have the attention of some of the real builders here. If anyone can get this, it's you guys.

Charly2, yes that is what I described. Think bigger diameter & more side spacing between magnets.

Ewizard, round magnets might not make a difference but I can't say. I always used square or rectangular magnets, much easier to work with.

Everyone, I have to be very careful here because I'm bound by an NDA. I can not post the design drawings or any images and I can't reveal privileged construction details. However, anything else is fair game. I'm sure you guys can read between the lines and see my situation, and understand what I am trying to prevent.

BTW, when I write about things like this I tend to sound like I'm instructing a class of high school sophomores. Sorry, I can't seem to write any other way, so please overlook my condescending tone.

That being said.... If you are serious about looking into this be forewarned, you must be meticulous in the construction or you will fail. This has nothing to do with magnetic shielding but there may be some flux redirection involved. Later, maybe.

As Dave pointed out, it's hard to find two magnets with the exact same strength. Generally, the field varies inversely by the square of distance, at close spacing anyway, so a simple mechanical test rig can be made to determine which magnets are closest in strength. Alternately it can be used to find the weakest magnet, then to determine the distance at which the other magnets exhibit the same strength. Then you can know the clearance to use with the individual magnets. Do this with both the rotor and stator magnets before construction begins.

The closer the gap between the rotor and stator magnets the more critical the individual magnet clearances become. There is a huge difference in pull between 0.030” and 0.090” gaps. Don't forget to consider any clearance in the rotor shaft and bearings. Shoot for a tight slip fit between the bearing and shaft. Roller bearings would be a good idea I think.

If you decide to pursue this, may I suggest a two pole rig to start with? A 1” thick x 12” long flat with rectangular cross section

Regards,
Mack

Thanks Mack

There are many inventors here who have tried some of the things

you mentioned but it is good to hear from someone who DOES

(Fore-sure) know the way specifically on how success with magnetic

motors is accomplished. I have some friends who told me they signed

a N.D.A and at the time I didn't know what that was. So I asked what

is a N.D.A? Naturally they told me it meant that they were given

the secret to a specialized invention OR they sold the secret of a

specialized invention for X amount of monies.


Oh I replied, I won't ask you any questions I told my friend so you

don't get in trouble and be subject to jail time. My friend said it was

alright. I said, alright how? He said as long as he didn't detail a complete

diagram of the same drawing of the N.D.A (Non-Disclosure-Agreement) that

he could give away other similar inventions based on the same

principle. I said Oh great. So I asked my friend where do we start?


He said ask me any question and if you get it right then that is as

good as YOU figured it out for yourselves. So I began asking and asking.


He replied many many NO!! answers but eventually I began to get

closer til I was able to grasp the idea without jeopardizing my friend.



I think what you have stated here Mack is that basic tolerances

and procedures of determining field strength might have caused a

perfectly viable design to fail. I think you have given us the answer.

Most have not spent the time to be this accurate but is what it takes.

[shylo]

Hi Mack, I tried a build with pivoting arms, but never with opposing magnets attached to the approaching face. I still think it will find balance.
Would like to see what you got.
Sounds interesting.
Thanks artv

[MadMack]

Dave,
That's the picture. Half of the motor. My ramps are different.
I built the first prototype with HDP, epoxy, a hacksaw, saber saw, 3/8 hand drill, vise, table saw, files, and miscellaneous common hand tools. The table saw was a luxury but not really necessary. No machine shop, I'm a poor man. The rotor magnets were shimmed to the correct distance from the center of the axle shaft using automotive feeler gauges and shims cut from a soda can. The stator magnets were infinitely adjustable using a sliding mount made of oak, fine thread rod, and jam nuts. What I described in the first post is an advanced model. The little 2 pole test rig is all anyone need build in order to gain understanding. Even if you can't get perfect magnetic force cancellation you can get pretty darn close. What is needed is less magnetic drag than the torque the ramps can provide. Anyway, get the neutral balance first.

BroMikey,
I don't know about you but I can remember a bunch of people who had perfectly good car engines that would not run because they messed up the ignition timing or they didn't set the point gap correctly. I saw quite a few nice fire balls shooting out of their carbs too.

Mack