Magnet motor revelation

[tachyoncatcher]

Sweet

Thanks everyone! I will be using a variant of Ken's idea with some aluminum angle I have. I know, I know, eddy currents. Not perfect but maybe good enough. I do not have plastics or the machining tools for plastic/metal, only wood working tools. And lots of glue. I want to be able to adjust the angle 30-45 degrees as suggested. This will skew the center line unless I get things exact. As Mack said, easy to fail.

Ufo's post #167 above is dead-nuts-on. Easy to test yourself. I did. I still think we will have to further scrutinize the interaction between the ramp being induced by a north rotor and the south stator. This is probably where shunts will be required.

Thanks Again,

Randy

[tachyoncatcher]

Another Question

Which is stronger, or is there a difference between the attraction forces of a magnet and iron. Versus the same magnet/pole and the same iron biased with a attracting (opposite) pole? I really don't know nor do I have the scales to test this.

Thanks,

Randy

[Ufopolitics]

Which is stronger, or is there a difference between the attraction forces of a magnet and iron. Versus the same magnet/pole and the same iron biased with a attracting (opposite) pole? I really don't know nor do I have the scales to test this.

Thanks,

Randy

Randy,

The answer to your (apparent) simple question, according to my experience is not simple.

When you approach two magnets by their opposite poles, those two poles making contact actually disappear (effect that Ken Wheeler calls "Voidance"), and what was each magnets dielectric center plane at each... actually disappear to 'merge' right at the seal between both poles surfaces.

[IMG][/IMG]

If you "sandwich" a piece of iron between the same kind of approach, the dielectric plane merges right in the center of iron piece. So the iron serves as the bonding mass between both magnets.

Getting to your question:

1- When you approach a magnet to plain iron, that contacting pole just starts taking over the whole piece of iron. By logical deduction that contacting pole weakens related to the opposite one since it is expanding to a bigger volume mass.

2- But, if you approach Magnet to an Influenced Iron by the opposite pole, it is a stronger reaction than previous example (1) just because is bonded by two attracting vectors, plus the other two exterior poles are also interacting by displacement of the Dielectric Plane.

This reality applies exactly the same way by making contact...or merely approaching by an air gap.


Anyways, that is my opinion...it may differ to other Members criteria...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[tachyoncatcher]

Stator Magnets

Dear tachyoncatcher.

For the sake of simplicity I'm going to " fix " the rotor magnet angle to 30 deg. My reasoning behind that ? Fine adjustments can be more easily accomplished on the stator whilst the rotor is turning, also it will be much easier to ballance mechanically. I have a huge stock of Polycarbonate off cuts and a full engineering workshop so if 30 deg don't " cut it " I'll just make another one!!

As a footnote, the builders here may find that a telephone call to a local plastics company might just yield a few off cuts, Gratis, as they have to pay for the disposal of scrap.

Cheers Grum.

Hi Grum,
Yes, the stators are easily adjusted, but I believe the rotor angle is going to be what is adjusted to maximize the torque from the ramps. To me, the stator angle will be what helps with the transition from the ramps since we know the strongest flux extends from the edge of the magnet, not the center, and the ramps on the repulsive side is going to be out of balance from the attraction side. If you use symmetrical geometry that is. I see the addition of the ramps as unbalancing the system and I think Mack may have already said that somewhere. I see a possible sticky point between the repulsing stator and the ramp leading to it. A challenge, for sure. But what do I know.

Thanks Ufo for the iron attraction info. I was wondering if anyone had actually measured the pull between the two scenarios. It makes sense that the added energies of biasing the iron would increase the pull. Don't prosecute me for just calling magnetism energy. Its just easier that way.
Take Care,
Randy

[BroMikey]

Guys, this is only a toy anyway, the only real usage for it is to open mind for better possibilities ...

Hey Bog..........

I am all ears but the problem is sometimes your English makes no sense.

UFO has shown how the design does work and that it is more than a toy

so go ahead with your magnet motor theory. What college? After all of

years of speculating what your thoughts might be, I guess we can

wait a few more decades?


Either way it has become very clear time and time again that the

models for just about every principle taught in schools are inaccurate.

As shown in post #167 as Randy has pointed out, UFO's run down of

the obvious facts in the experiment takes presidence.

Presidence meaning, taking first place and does supersede the dern

dogma force fed the yuppies looking only for the money trail.


On the other hand their are those of us who have "had it" "UP THE HERE"

with following the phony leadership who have been shown to be unable

to find their heads with both hands on a good day.


We have done our bid for THEIR version of GOD and Country. To break

free from the systems clutches we must do the investigation first hand.


As UFO has shown in pictures, just like Howard Johnson tried to do, the

bloch wall moves and many other advanced interactions take place.


Most of what Howard J. has shown is not excepted by mainstream

science, only the portions of his work that compliment mainstream

philosophy/dogma/deadends.


Always with just a "HINT" that it might work. Or that nobody knows

for sure. The facts have been in for years. Some of the first powerful

magnet motors were bought up in the 1950's with their inventors

having long since expired. These inventors were silenced with money

and or threats til such time as their passing would cause their inventions

to be "out of sight out of mind".


Think about it.


Great going to all of the guys for holding the investigation data above

the dogma/peer pressure driven robots with their intimadating

non-sense.

Yours Truly

[Stealth]

If some of you guys are having trouble finding suitable material to build a rotor and or stator out of, there is an available solution. You can purchase a nylon or plastic disk used for cutting boards. They come in different shapes from round to square to rectangular. And they are not that expensive. Good Luck. stealth

[BroMikey]

If some of you guys are having trouble finding suitable material to build a rotor and or stator out of, there is an available solution. You can purchase a nylon or plastic disk used for cutting boards. They come in different shapes from round to square to rectangular. And they are not that expensive. Good Luck. stealth

Hi Stealth

There are a lot of things we can all share with one another such

as our practical experiences for material handling. Many do not have

the one thing or they have the other thing and they get stuck so

it is good to make up for one's weakness by giving practical application.


It is easier said than done. Good to see you are going to keep an eye

on this new thread. I couldn't think of any better material this time

for a one shot deal where a test or two will be the end of this machine

except for demonstration purposes, so I chose wood. And wow wee that

8X locktite Pro series is the kitty cats meow when it comes to bonding

to just about anything.

For those of you who want a good solid piece of wood that doesn't

cost you one hundred dollars go to your local furniture/appliance dealer

where a steady stream of cast away master bed head boards are

thrown out to the rain and snow.

I have enclosed an updated diagram that is showing my stator magnet

assembly for anyone who wants their way paved.

Look to the left of the diagram for the stator magnet mount.


The hole is made

oversize with a large flat fender washer that is 2" away from the magnet.

I might change that to a SS washer but maybe being 2" away won't

throw it off. This arrangement can be snugged up with the 1/4-20 ss bolt

and still be moved with a good strong hand in all directions.

As soon as I get what I want (The first Stage) I will show this in a video.

The next step will of course be to redirect the the machines balanced

lines of force to make it run all by it's lonesome. Well not quite til I

add a few more sets.

[BroMikey]

Okay I have realized something very important tonight. I have

been unsure of the direction of rotation and have changed my

rotation direction 3 times. First time after Dave's video I figured

maybe he was going in the right direction but wasn't real sure

because no ramp is shown yet for the first stage. But, when

UFO posted all of his awesome design graphics, I had to wonder

if his rotation direction was right or was Dave's video right.

I didn't know which way to go at first till I looked at the effect

the ramps have that will come later.


It is starting to make more sense now Mack, why you pointed out

that I needed to be more sure which direction was right for my build.

My magnets are angled opposite the UFO drawing.


What I see clear now is that which ever way we angle the magnets

the leading edge should be the side that is the weakest as it makes

it's approach toward the ramps first and then afterward the closest

portion of the rotor magnet to follow.

Maybe I am not able to explain this to others very well but I see it

clearly now.


I just makes the most sense to have the rotor magnets weak side

to induce a field into the ramp first instead of the other way around.

[shylo]

Hi UFO, I think your right , I went back and redid my test.
I was bringing a magnet towards a piece of rectangular steel, that had the opposite pole magnet on it at one end. When the rotor magnet was close enough( to the opposite end) the piece of steel moved away.
But with a longer length of steel , it didn't happen until it got close enough to the attached magnet.
Not trying to misinform ,just trying to explain what I see.
I still think it will balance without something changing.
Sorry about that folks.
artv

[BroMikey]

This is what I found out by trial and error here in this diagram.

The dimensions are not perfect on the ramp yet. What happens

is that the entire length of ramp attracts the rotor magnet except

for a tiny portion right up where the ramp sits next to the stator

magnet.

This is the repulsion side and as always the repulsion area on both sides

of the magnets center has an ever increasing or diminishing amount of force

on either side of the maximum center of the repulsive forces.


I had the rotor spinning tonight very freely with the new stator

mounts working perfectly. Then I accidentally bumped the rotor

magnet and it cracked, dug it out and reglued a new one in about

4 hours ago.

Also I am putting a white dot on the rotor magnets closest to the

stator magnets and a dot on the stator magnet where the center

of the forces are at there strongest point.

This way makes it much easier to find the optimum cancellation

position.

I also found out by experimentation, just as has been pointed out, that

the repulsion side gap between rotor and stator magnet must be set

closer together to increase the field strength in order to keep up

with the attraction side. So the attraction side must be a tiny bit

stronger as evidenced by the need to close the gap on the repuslion

side to acquire more field lines.

It is a very small difference but none the less.

Happy experimenting

[Turion]

When faced with an issue, go back to what Mack said:

"What is needed is less magnetic drag than the torque the ramps can provide. Anyway, get the neutral balance first.

A shunt on the repelling stator magnet similar to the Bedini drawing will kill some of this neutralization and add to the torque. You only need the neutralizing action of the repelling magnets after they pass their center lines. Any neutralizing affect you can eliminate before that point is beneficial. Likewise reducing back drag attraction on the attracting set, with a shunt on the other side of this magnet from its ramp, can also benefit. I can not provide details on the shape of the shunts or any spacings they may have. Look at the Bedini picture for ideas. Too big of a shunt will make things worse."

Dave

[BroMikey]

When faced with an issue, go back to what Mack said:

"What is needed is less magnetic drag than the torque the ramps can provide. Anyway, get the neutral balance first.

A shunt on the repelling stator magnet similar to the Bedini drawing will kill some of this neutralization and add to the torque. You only need the neutralizing action of the repelling magnets after they pass their center lines. Any neutralizing affect you can eliminate before that point is beneficial. Likewise reducing back drag attraction on the attracting set, with a shunt on the other side of this magnet from its ramp, can also benefit. I can not provide details on the shape of the shunts or any spacings they may have. Look at the Bedini picture for ideas. Too big of a shunt will make things worse."

Dave

Wow that is a statement that had not sunk in yet I didn't get

that til now, well i don't know what a shunt is yet either.

Thanks - A -Million Dave, right when i needed to hear more, I'll give

it top priority. Here is my progress report.


Below is FIG.A and FIG.B they show the influence that a single ramp

has on the repulsion side using a thin piece of PC power supply metal

1.25" wide @ approx 6" long. I see that my magnets are weak when

it come to induction forces so it became imperative to arc some of the

ramp to keep a .120" gap all long the travel area between rotor and

that half of the ramp. The angle plays an important role in induced

field strength that effects the distance the rotor travels.


No where in the Bedini diagram is there a mention of a shunt.

Also Mack talks about "rake of the ramp" and i don't understand

those terms or what they mean.

here it is again.

[Mario]

In Bedini's drawing the the shunt is the part of the ramp where the iron connects part of one pole to the other pole of the stator magnet.

Rake means inclination.

Mario

[Ufopolitics]

Rake and Shunts...

Hello to All,

@Mikey, the Rake is as Mario said, an inclination of the ramp. The Angle of adjustment.

Shunt is a deviation: "push or pull (a train or part of a train) from the main line to a siding or from one track to another..."

In this case the Bedini's iron ramp creates a "shunt" by attraction to the approaching North Pole from Rotor.

I am certain the "Key" here is to start by having a perfectly balanced system, just between magnets (not including ramps)...Now, the Gap is also important...since we may obtain a great balance BUT with too wide gaps...which is definitively not good! (we are cheating...lol) . Meaning, the Two opposite Forces (Repulse-Attract) MUST be there (Exist) AND with a lot of strength...except they are cancelling out in a straight vector at 180º. However, both forces are there.

The point to understand here is that cancellation of forces ONLY take place EXACTLY in the 180º ALIGNMENT LINE between Rotor-Stators for EACH Module...so, after that particular line-point, they are no longer cancelled, meaning they are there in FULL STRENGTH EACH...to interact with ramps...

I also believe the acceleration Ramps which generates the "Positive Unbalance" to our Balanced System should be equalized as well, in order that those unbalancing forces are distributed equally across the 180º. This way two acceleration vectors of the same magnitude would take place at each Module of Two Rotors and Two Stators.

I see many possibilities of designing the ramps shape for each module...and not necessarily ramps need to be "Symmetrical" or identical, since we are dealing with two different type of forces....but, only testing each one would give us the better ones.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Turion]

Terms

Let me add to what was said so we can be very, very specific.

Rake: In the case of this motor, the rake of the ramp is not only the angle of the ramp, but the distance of each end from the rotor. Mack said that the rake can not only contribute to the acceleration, but it can act as a BRAKE.

When the rotor magnet first approaches the ramp, if the opening is WIDE and becomes narrow, the rotor magnet accelerates. If the opening goes from narrow to wide, it DEcelerates. So if one side is overpowering the other, you can use the "rake" to give the other side an advantage and still have the magnets balanced with each other. Or you can GIVE one side an advantage by adjusting the rake.

I hope that makes sense.

shunt: As it is used here, and in reference to the drawing of the Bedini setup, the "shunt" is the piece of metal on the ramp or PART of the ramp that comes between the magnet attached to the ramp and the rotor magnet. It diverts the flux so there is NOT as much attraction between the stator magnet and the rotor magnet at a specific point. Instead, that flux goes into the iron. If you look at the drawing of the Bedini setup you will see that the ramp actually curves AROUD the magnet on the rotor side blocking or "shunting"the magnetic flux.

Max said there was NO shunt on the acceleration side. He said to look to the Bedini drawing for how to do the shunt on the repulsion side and that TOO LARGE of a shunt would do more harm than good. Those are all the statements he made about the shunt.

That means we are UNBALANCING the device to give the attraction side the advantage. Once the rotor magnet on the attraction side has accelerated (because of the attraction to the ramp of BOTH rotor magnets) and gotten past the sticky point and past the stator magnets, the rotor magnets cannot be attracted BACKWARDS because the two "attraction" magnets tend to push each other away at this point because of the angle of their relationship. They are no longer in attraction, but REPULSION.

This is OUT OF BALANCE with the other side because of the shunt on the repulsion side. The repulsion side is now in attraction because of the angle of the relationship between the magnets, but that attraction is SHUNTED.

Hope this makes sense.

Dave