Magnet motor revelation

[BroMikey]

Someone asked if it's all in the ramps, I think that was Shylo if I remember correctly. Yes, other than the balanced magnets it's all in the ramps.

Let me explain some of my theory in simple terms. I may be dead wrong technically and over simplifying but this seems to hold up in practice.

We are dealing with the multi-pole motor here, not just the 2 pole test device. By the time you assemble a whole motor your ramps must be made with the correct non-retentive material and you must take eddy current prevention seriously.

This is with the ramp for the attraction set.
If a magnet has 10,000 gauss at the pole, that amount enters into the ramp minus the reluctance of an air gap. Say it's now 6000. The iron in the ramp carries the 6000 and the magnet accelerates along the ramp due to the decreasing gap which lowers the reluctance and the ramp ends up taking 8000 by the time the acceleration is over. This is assuming there is sufficient cross section in the ramp to carry 8000. Now we change the attraction vector by changing the shape of the ramp. It's still carrying 8000 in attraction to the rotor magnet but at 0 rotational force. The rotor is coasting because the attraction is divided to both sides at a 90 degree angle to the ramp. We have to escape from this attraction and the only way to do it is to decrease the ramp cross section so that it will no longer carry that amount of flux. If you angle the tines away, or increase their distance from the rotor you change the vector and introduce negative rotational force. We reduce the cross section to where the ramp can only carry 2000. But we have to provide someplace for the rest of the 8000 from the rotor magnet to go. As the gauss to the first ramp is decreasing, provide, at the right time, a path of lesser reluctance and bigger cross section for the rotor magnet flux so by the time the first ramp is down to 2000 the next ramp has taken up 4000 at a vector that will aid rotation. When the rotor needs to break free of the 2000 in the first ramp there is 4000 pulling it into the next ramp so there is a gain instead of a loss. If the first ramp is still able to carry 6000 then the rotor stops dead in it's tracks or even reverses. So you may have a perfectly shaped ramp but if has too much cross section at the end for your particular rotor magnet you've shot yourself in the foot.

For the repulsion set, if you have a distinct kick away from the end of the ramp you might not want to extend the ramp and cut down it's cross section more. You might want the rotor magnet to travel a ways without a ramp but have the rotor magnet flux make the transition to the next ramp before the flux to the first ramp yanks it back. Otherwise, if you don't have that kick away but do have good acceleration then use a scenario similar to the attraction set.

The flux from the rotor magnet will take the path of least resistance. If two paths are present the flux will divide proportionally to the over all reluctance of each path. The reluctance is the sum of the air gap plus the reluctance of the ramp material, which increases with the length of the material the flux travels through and the distance of the air gap.

Best Regards,
Mack

This is my kind of explanation. I was never and engineer, however the

books have been before my eyes since high school. Many people have trouble

with these types of entries because technical terms blow their minds.

Yes I see more now that I need to look at the calculator to determine

how much iron mass will be needed and where. The Gauss portion

of the calculation escapes me at the moment. But I will get on it. If

anyone has a link to share on these thoughts please post.

Notation: Thanks to some unknow, it was brought to my attention
that the dream was actual real. But you said that?

[BroMikey]

Preliminary Evaluation for Gauss/Iron/Gap Calculations


This will be the first installment for vector analysis of magnetic ramp
and magnets to find approximate ramp proportions.

[Ufopolitics]

Exactly the way I was picturing this Motor...

Someone asked if it's all in the ramps, I think that was Shylo if I remember correctly. Yes, other than the balanced magnets it's all in the ramps.

Thanks for this great post Mack!

Yes, just by having ALL magnets in the set up pretty well balanced, that is All Stators and All Rotor Magnets, the motor exposes some kind of "moving inertia force" clearly observed by slowly rotating it...

After observing this balanced free movement force, it jumps into our minds that only the proper "imbalance" caused by the ramps will do the work.

Let me explain some of my theory in simple terms. I may be dead wrong technically and over simplifying but this seems to hold up in practice.

Your explanation below is as clear as mountain spring water...

We are dealing with the multi-pole motor here, not just the 2 pole test device.

That is exactly what I have been writing and trying to explain in here for a while...

By the time you assemble a whole motor your ramps must be made with the correct non-retentive material and you must take eddy current prevention seriously.

This is with the ramp for the attraction set.
If a magnet has 10,000 gauss at the pole, that amount enters into the ramp minus the reluctance of an air gap. Say it's now 6000. The iron in the ramp carries the 6000 and the magnet accelerates along the ramp due to the decreasing gap which lowers the reluctance and the ramp ends up taking 8000 by the time the acceleration is over. This is assuming there is sufficient cross section in the ramp to carry 8000. Now we change the attraction vector by changing the shape of the ramp. It's still carrying 8000 in attraction to the rotor magnet but at 0 rotational force. The rotor is coasting because the attraction is divided to both sides at a 90 degree angle to the ramp. We have to escape from this attraction and the only way to do it is to decrease the ramp cross section so that it will no longer carry that amount of flux. If you angle the tines away, or increase their distance from the rotor you change the vector and introduce negative rotational force. We reduce the cross section to where the ramp can only carry 2000. But we have to provide someplace for the rest of the 8000 from the rotor magnet to go. As the gauss to the first ramp is decreasing, provide, at the right time, a path of lesser reluctance and bigger cross section for the rotor magnet flux so by the time the first ramp is down to 2000 the next ramp has taken up 4000 at a vector that will aid rotation. When the rotor needs to break free of the 2000 in the first ramp there is 4000 pulling it into the next ramp so there is a gain instead of a loss. If the first ramp is still able to carry 6000 then the rotor stops dead in it's tracks or even reverses. So you may have a perfectly shaped ramp but if has too much cross section at the end for your particular rotor magnet you've shot yourself in the foot.

For the repulsion set, if you have a distinct kick away from the end of the ramp you might not want to extend the ramp and cut down it's cross section more. You might want the rotor magnet to travel a ways without a ramp but have the rotor magnet flux make the transition to the next ramp before the flux to the first ramp yanks it back. Otherwise, if you don't have that kick away but do have good acceleration then use a scenario similar to the attraction set.

The flux from the rotor magnet will take the path of least resistance. If two paths are present the flux will divide proportionally to the over all reluctance of each path. The reluctance is the sum of the air gap plus the reluctance of the ramp material, which increases with the length of the material the flux travels through and the distance of the air gap.

Best Regards,
Mack

Perfect!...I can picture it in my mind...that flux dynamic movement in 3D shape caused by the rotor magnets passing by...flowing and forming the transitions from the start solid cross section to the "Y" split...then back again to the solid, straight part of the next ramp. Something -roughly- like this...but softer...more "artistic" blending with great dynamics animations...: (Rotation>>> --< --< --< --< --< --< )

I have a question that I believe others replicating here are also mentioning but some how we have not come up with the final conclusion:

After we have all magnets in the set up balanced...no ramps, we all have noticed that whenever we install even one ramp that creates some unbalance related to the modules where the ramp is installed, example if we install it on the attraction stator, we notice the repulsion starts to be dominant, and the opposite...and so on during assembly.

The question I split it in two parts for easier understanding:

1-Are we not supposed to try to re-balance the system as we install ramps, but maybe after we are finished with all of them?

2- Or are we not supposed to re-balance system at all after all ramps are on?

When I write "re-balance the system", I meant only to re-adjust stators, not ramps.

In my view, if we magnetically re-balance the whole thing again after all ramps are on...we will get back to a completely balanced system that would offer the least of possibilities to start self rotating...am I right?

IMO what I believe we should play-adjust at this stage are the distances between ramps related to stators and rotor magnets. In order not to space them either too close or too far away.


Thanks again for your disclosure and for your patience with all of Us!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[wrtner]

John has done his best, what about you and me? It's someone else turn now so remember no money is not the way John operates.

If he doesn't get something real to happen soon, it may be too late. He needs to be mindful of the expiry date on his significant patents.

[BroMikey]

If he doesn't get something real to happen soon, it may be too late. He needs to be mindful of the expiry date on his significant patents.

John B. Has magnet motors working with his SSG work, all new stuff.

Magnetic reluctance


@everyone

Here is another diagram so we may fill in the unknowns. The first unknown

to discovery will be the amount of mass needed for the iron, based on

the Gauss retention needed for 2 magnets, rotor and stator.

The next diagram should show both ramps on any known experiment

and then proceed to alter the shape of the RAMPS to overcome sticking.

I have decided to use N42 magnets because 1" X 1/2" X 1/2" N52 magnets

are not readily available at K&j nor does Magnets4less have any.

[MadMack]

Ufo,

You said roughly --<--<.
More like this, roughly. Ignore the dots.
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/ \
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/ \
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or
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/ \
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/ \
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Regarding your two questions. I offer this as constructive criticism, for the purpose of better understanding because I think either you guys have not understood or I have failed to communicate clearly enough. Probably the latter. So let's go through this step by step again from the beginning.
1.
Balance the magnets. This is the base preparation for the build.
2.
Construct and test one ramp that accelerates the rotor past the attractive stator pole.
3.
Remove that ramp.
4.
Construct and test one ramp that accelerates the rotor past the repulsive stator pole.
5.
Now test the two ramps together.

I haven't come right out and said this because I thought it was the logical obvious conclusion at this point. If each ramp by itself provides positive thrust at least to the stator magnet then the two together must provide more thrust than either ramp by itself. Modification of the ramps and/or any readjustment of the magnets will be done at this step in order to achieve that goal.
(Ufo, that last sentence is the answer to both of your questions.)

Has step 5 been achieved? I'm not sure as no evidence has been presented by anyone of increased combined force. Remember I spoke about a rig for measuring the pull from a ramp a long time ago?

6.
If the goal of step 5 has been achieved, then we can turn our attention to loss prevention which is what I have been posting about recently. Getting a rotor magnet to transition from one ramp to the next. However, if we haven't gotten step 5 to produce a combined gain yet then there is no point in continuing with step 6.

Regards,
Mack

[BroMikey]

Ramp Testing Video for beginners only, like me

No the setup is not what Mack said to use, no I don't have

what I need. Just basic tests that prove a "Y" ramp works and

how attraction forces differ from the repulsion forces.



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILVnc4if3Iw&feature=youtu.be[/VIDEO]

[BroMikey]

Remember I spoke about a rig for measuring the pull from a ramp a long time ago?

Regards,
Mack

Is that rig a complicated device? Or a simple weight scale attacked to a

string from rotor to scales? Something accurate of course not like my

spring loaded fish scales. I see microgram, scientific scales that

cost $1000 similar to this where it has a hook on it but it can measure

push as well as pull.




Maybe something like this will work? Goes to 50Lbs, might not work for

a big motor magnet. My magnets are strong.



This little joule is only $3, technology saves the day.



Features:

Ultra-compact design and light weight.
25kg capacity with 5g readability.
Excellent quality and accurate weight.
Stable functions and digital display.
3 selectable units: kg, lb, jin
Auto power off after 2 minute or manually power off instantly.
With a iron hook, to hang your luggage.
Easy to carry it in a pocket or handbag for weighting on travel.

Specifications:
Color: Yellow
Capacity & accuracy: 25kg * 5g
Units: kg, lb, jin
Power supply: 1 * CR2032 (not included)
Material: Plastic
Auto off: 2 minute

[lorinrandone]

Mack
You think than i can build this motor with a diameter of 120mm? That's about the size of mini lathe.

Mickey, thanks for the comment, but adjustments are far from precise. I use round magnets, and locate outside virtual corner is very difficult, you need playing with them on your posicion.Atencion for you, because you also round magnets.
With ramps, unfortunately I can not work on metal noise, implicitly for the inconvenience
Mikey, I see you still have a problem with the bearings. Check view here. It is a suggestion, nothing more
Best regards cristian.

[BroMikey]

Mack
You think than i can build this motor with a diameter of 120mm? That's about the size of mini lathe.

Mickey, thanks for the comment, but adjustments are far from precise. I use round magnets, and locate outside virtual corner is very difficult, you need playing with them on your posicion.Atencion for you, because you also round magnets.
With ramps, unfortunately I can not work on metal noise, implicitly for the inconvenience
Mikey, I see you still have a problem with the bearings. Check view here. It is a suggestion, nothing more
Best regards cristian.

Yes I need square one's. The round one's don't work well. Nice bearings

and old motor parts. I think I buy roller skate bearings?

I can't find any square magnets at 1/2"(25mm) N52. They are all sold

out. So I think I buy 1" (50mm) so my bearings need 1/2"(25mm) shaft.

I think $5 for a big bearing.

Virtual corner? Round magnets no corner I need square magnets.

[BroMikey]

Greetings to all the aspiring Scientists

This of course is Brother Michael Rowland from central Kansas.

If you are like me you are looking for answers as to WHY. Why this and

WHY that. Therefore I am posting an answer to my own question as to

why others use certain shapes, or if they even have a ramp. So far we

have UFO, Cristian and myself who have ramps. I am enclosing a diagram.

This picture shows two ramps almost alike, except for certain modifications.

Earlier this month I did 100's of tests to confirm what I am about to say.


Some of you may ask why Mack does not just post a RAMP so we can

copy it? And the answer is that we wouldn't have to think then, and

who wants to be spoon fed every detail? Not me. Either way Mack has

opted out of giving specific details BUT Mack does express himself when

an experimenter is close to getting something like he likes it to be.



The reason I restate all of these things is that recently we who have done

many hundreds of tests, got some confirmations from Mack. Of course this

is most appreciated due to so many possible variables.


For instance, Mack has said many good things about the lower ramp

on the UFO replication repulsion ramp. Also by comparison to the top

ramp (Mack said) the upper ramp needed to be different from the lower

ramp. (Please see the two UFO video's in earlier posts)


This is not what this post is about.


I am posting this diagram to confirm a different RAMP MODIFICATION.

UFO, Cristian and myself have all built ramps and have obviously concluded

that the bent end of the ramps be more of a rounded off to a 90 degree

angle.


For a while we had tried the bends like in Fig.10 but through experimentation

clearly dictates Fig.11 bends are much better. Also you may or may not

have noticed that in the past week we have found the direction of rotation.


Keep in mind that none of these facts were verified by Mack, but rather

by experimentation. When we first started the direction was unclear to me

based on the 30 degree angle of the rotor magnet. This became as clear

as crystal after experimentation in both directions with ramps and ramp

shapes. Mack did question me as to the direct I had originally posted and so

I reversed it but I was still very unsure which direction to spin the rotor.


His diagram below does not show the rotor direction and Mack is wise to

make us do our own work. Thanks Macks for leaving some important details

up to us to find out on our own. Finding out things by experiment is very

refreshing.


I realize now after 30 days of spinning the rotor backwards and forwards

with the help of UFO, that the edge of the rotor magnet closest to the ramp

should lead the way first. All of these tests by experimenters and Macks

okay are showing us that we are making progress.


I can't believe how blind that I was to the direction of rotation as it is so

clear now. This just shows me how important the need for doing the tests

ourselves observing the cause and effect.

Diagram or Fig.11 shows the proper bend to the right of the figure as far

as my experimentation shows as far back as 20 days.




Also Macks diagram post did show this bend on a 90 degree angle.

Also Macks forks show tines very far away from the stator magnets as well

as very short tines so this maybe something to look into since the 90

degrees is a keeper. Also it has been pointed out by Mack that as the

motor begins to evolve from single "CELLS" into a many poled motor

ramps will become shorter. So his (Macks) diagram may be more of a

recollection of ramp dimensions of a full motor.


I will have to say that some of my ramps work really well when the tines

are spread wide apart well above the stator and ramp magnets on each

side as opposed to other ramp tines that are only a few mm away from

the stator. I think out long tines may need to be shortened in the end.


Also it has been pointed out that there are more than one way to make

adjustments on the ramps to induce a field into the FORK. One adjustment

is to reduce the mass of the tine, another adjustment is to spread the

tines out more reducing the amount of induced magnetic flows away

from the magnets.

[MadMack]

Cristian,
Nice try. When you can simply let go of the rotor and see it accelerate past the magnets you will be on the right track. A 122mm rotor is too small for the 1/2” square neos that I used. I assume a rotor that small could be built with scaled down components but I think it would be difficult.

BroMikey,
Some good observations in the video. For every unwanted effect, try to find a way to minimize that effect. The split Y has some negative rotational force associated with it as the tines move apart. What will counteract that? A greater angle of descent between the tines and the rotor. You all see that as the gap between the ramp and the rotor decreases, the rotor continues to rotate. Why not use that knowledge to full effect? You also see the rotor can stop right where the ramp ends.

As for the measuring device, you could use rubber bands and measure the stretch if you wanted to.


Everyone,
I hope you all realize that this motor is the sum of separate effects. Someone elsewhere keeps insisting that you perform tests for a motor and not doing so right now is somehow proof that I am full of it and just jerking you around. I hope you are not letting him discourage you because if you are then you might as well give up now. He can't seem to get it into his head that you do not have a complete motor to test yet. We are working on the separate components. After you have the whole motor then by all means run all the performance tests you want.

I have been trying to get you all to see the individual components, the effects they must have, and how they will add up into the final motor assembly. If you are trying to get full rotation now, please wait. It would be like trying to get a 4 stroke gas engine to run without the camshaft.

I have listed 6 steps to accomplish. You guys are at step 4-5 and struggling. Just know that this is to be expected because it's the most difficult part. Don't give up now. Get the rotor to accelerate past the stator magnets having more pull toward the stator magnets with the 2 ramps vs. either ramp by itself. That's all for right now. Don't worry about any back drag as the rotor leaves the end of the ramp. That is dealt with in step 6.

Step 6 is the final step where you get the rotor to maintain its momentum after passing the stator magnet, then transition the rotor magnet from one ramp to the next ramp without loss. Transformer steel for the final ramps will be mandatory then and we will be working with 4 stator magnets. When you get this step done you will have everything you need to know to build the running motor.

Regards,
Mack

[BroMikey]

BroMikey,
Some good observations in the video. For every unwanted effect, try to find a way to minimize that effect. The split Y has some negative rotational force associated with it as the tines move apart. What will counteract that? A greater angle of descent between the tines and the rotor. You all see that as the gap between the ramp and the rotor decreases, the rotor continues to rotate. Why not use that knowledge to full effect? You also see the rotor can stop right where the ramp ends.

As for the measuring device, you could use rubber bands and measure the stretch if you wanted to.

Regards,
Mack

Thanks Mack, you are my hero. I been coming to sites for years and very
few project owners are on the level. I really thought I was on my own and was
going to have to get stock in uranium.

Yes I am pouring over your last instruction to make sureI reconsider
these words during the next set of experimental data collection. I may
narrow the tips of the tines right at the stator. My curve is not hugging the
circle so I can not get an accurate declination to the end of the ramp.(you understand)

Yeah I hear ya on bands

Everyone,

Someone elsewhere keeps insisting that you perform tests for a motor and not doing so right now is somehow proof that I am full of it and just jerking you around. I hope you are not letting him discourage you because if you are then you might as well give up now. He can't seem to get it into his head .................................................. .............

I have been trying to get you all to see the individual components, the effects they must have, and how they will add up into the final motor assembly. If you are trying to get full rotation now, please wait. It would be like trying to get a 4 stroke gas engine to run without the camshaft.

Regards,
Mack

Look Mack I heard you the first time, you won't have to tell me twice or
defend yourself against me. I think you are one of the nicest men I have
met on these forums and anyone taking a shot at you is just plain belligerent.

Those people won't come to this forum with their "F" words and dirty language because they know I would beat them to a verbal bloody pulp.

And they can't have someone scolding them for their stupidity and dishonest
behavior in front of all of their tag alongs, now can they?

Either way I am sorry Mack, I'll apologize for these people who think they
know it all or can't believe it is so simple so they act insulted. Then they
proceed to make up lies in the middle of their temper tantrum because
they are so high minded they can't just shut up and do what they are told.

[lorinrandone]

MadMac
Cristian,
Nice try. When you can simply let go of the rotor and see it accelerate past the magnets you will be on the right track. A 122mm rotor is too small for the 1/2” square neos that I used. I assume a rotor that small could be built with scaled down components but I think it would be difficult.

Mack Thanks, as always, very helpful which indicates. I'll try to build a bigger rotor.



Everyone,
I hope you all realize that this motor is the sum of separate effects. Someone elsewhere keeps insisting that you perform tests for a motor and not doing so right now is somehow proof that I am full of it and just jerking you around. I hope you are not letting him discourage you because if you are then you might as well give up now. He can't seem to get it into his head that you do not have a complete motor to test yet. We are working on the separate components. After you have the whole motor then by all means run all the performance tests you want.



You started this thread. If you want to continue, great, if not - this is question of its strategy and its dispozicion to cope with the insult and provocation. I personally was expecting this sort of thing. My advice as an person a lot older than you, is - no more respond to provocations.
For others (everyone problem) I see will no longer goes any more. It is wrong and it does not have to end this way. UFO que te paso? ¿Se te ha estropeado el AUTOCAD O QUE?

a good day for everyone cristian alba.

[mkt3920]

Mack,
Not discouraged at all, just not used to metal working (ramps) so moving slow at that stage. Thank you for staying active here.
Kent