Motor Generators

[Rakarskiy]

Hi. A permanent magnetic field, more specifically magnetic flux induction, is produced by a permanent magnet or electromagnet that has a constant excitation current. A variable electromagnet also creates magnetic flux in the core but ... there's a lot of buts.

[JenkoRun]

At the risk of getting too involved, which I'd rather not be, Rakarskiy is correct that the effects of mutual induction need to be avoided in closed circuit machines, non-inductive windings are relevant to that, though they can't be used alone since they generate almost no voltage potential if at all.

[bistander]

Hi. A permanent magnetic field, more specifically magnetic flux induction, is produced by a permanent magnet or electromagnet that has a constant excitation current. A variable electromagnet also creates magnetic flux in the core but ... there's a lot of buts.

Must be a language difference, but I fail to see how one can consider the magnetic field resulting from a current through a coil permanent. So your "electromagnet that has a constant excitation current" is a better description, where constant implies "unchanging for a time period" and permanent means forever. But aside from language, what about and induction motor driven faster than synchronous speed? It becomes a generator having no DC excitation or permanent magnets. Even the car alternator having a DC field constantly varies the excitation for regulation. I fail to see your point anyway. Generators and motors are basically the same. Some engineering differences may happen for application specific reasons, but the fundamentals and design are the same.
bi

[bistander]

At the risk of getting too involved, which I'd rather not be, Rakarskiy is correct that the effects of mutual induction need to be avoided in closed circuit machines, non-inductive windings are relevant to that, though they can't be used alone since they generate almost no voltage potential if at all.

Hi JR,
Please do involve yourself.
You mean by "effects of mutual induction" armature reaction?
bi

[Rakarskiy]

A good motor is a bad alternator, and vice versa a good alternator is a bad motor. The EMF generated by reactive consumers interferes with the operation of the generator rather than adding power to it. By the way, the question of the substitutability of the motor and generator for a DC circuit, I have partially considered in my work. I touched a little on the nature of self-induction.

https://rakatskiy.blogspot.com/2018/12/1935.html?m=1

[Rakarskiy]

At the risk of getting too involved, which I'd rather not be, Rakarskiy is correct that the effects of mutual induction need to be avoided in closed circuit machines, non-inductive windings are relevant to that, though they can't be used alone since they generate almost no voltage potential if at all.

Dealing with EMF induction, in generators with core, where windings are wound on rods or stacked in a slot, dealt with transformers as well.
The direct Mutual induction between the wires has nothing to do with the transformer EMF formula. The transformer EMF formula is used in generators.
Unfortunately Faraday, studying with his coil, could not see it, he encountered all kinds of inductions and they do not want to understand it being in illusions of electronic version of electricity.

The link has a pdf file of my article about this point in my research.

Invention of the electromagnetic generator | Patreon

[bistander]

A good motor is a bad alternator, and vice versa a good alternator is a bad motor. The EMF generated by reactive consumers interferes with the operation of the generator rather than adding power to it. By the way, the question of the substitutability of the motor and generator for a DC circuit, I have partially considered in my work. I touched a little on the nature of self-induction.

https://rakatskiy.blogspot.com/2018/12/1935.html?m=1

A good motor is a bad alternator, and vice versa a good alternator is a bad motor.

This can be true in some cases, but is not an universal fact by any means. Perfect example is the typical traction motor used on modern electric and hybrid vehicles. These motors will have practically equivalent efficiency, within a percent or two, operating as a motor during acceleration and travel and during regenerative braking when functioning as a generator. Look it up, or test it. I have.
bi

[Rakarskiy]

Interesting wording "typical traction engine". Any motor has characteristics, in motor mode and in generator mode. The golden rule of a generator is its winding resistance must tend to zero. Motor winding resistance? Because there are design features in electric car motors that are installed there. I had the pleasure of working in a team for converting cars into electric vehicles, i.e. I have tested everything with my own hands on different types of motors.

[Rakarskiy]

2023-02-14_111137.jpg

A good example of regenerative braking on a 1922 electric car.
For example, Patent US1423090 for a 1922 electric vehicle of the United States.

[bistander]

Interesting wording "typical traction engine". Any motor has characteristics, in motor mode and in generator mode. The golden rule of a generator is its winding resistance must tend to zero. Motor winding resistance? Because there are design features in electric car motors that are installed there. I had the pleasure of working in a team for converting cars into electric vehicles, i.e. I have tested everything with my own hands on different types of motors.

Rakarskiy,
You say

The golden rule of a generator is its winding resistance must tend to zero. Motor winding resistance? Because there are design features in electric car motors that are installed there.

Show me the source or derivation of this "golden rule".

You don't just make this stuff up, do you?
bi

[bistander]

2023-02-14_111137.jpg

A good example of regenerative braking on a 1922 electric car.
For example, Patent US1423090 for a 1922 electric vehicle of the United States.

Series resistive speed control, mechanical reverse gear.... We've come a long way. I didn't read patent, but from diagram, it is not a "good example" of regen in modern EVs. Century old technology, still would work, interesting to some, but only good for wall art in my shop. Thanks.
bi

[Rakarskiy]

The first - "the golden rule of generator design" was told to me by a designer of electromechanical machines. We had a correspondence regarding my publication about the generator of Karl Lutmer (Australia 1986)*. He was commissioned to design a similar machine, he was looking for the real patent AU53890/86. By the way, he found it in the patent database of Australia, and sent me the original scan (pdf**), which I posted on my blog for downloading. This golden rule follows from the problems of material consumption and Ohm's law for a circuit with a load. With a high resistance of the winding, it will be necessary to "maximize" the idle EMF, increase the number of turns, which will entail an increase in the electromagnetic moment of the machine and a decrease in its overall efficiency. These are the questions and answers from design engineers, and not from "short-sighted" physics teachers.

As for the design of the electrical circuit of the 1922 electric car, Figuera*** also used a resistive controller in his generator, today all this can be implemented through a semiconductor valve power supply system. The main thing is the operating principle of the electromagnetic system, and control is already engineering creativity. You did not see the main difference in control as a motor and as a generator, this is your mistake, not mine.

* Wise Eye OverUnity: MAGNETIC GENERATOR COP-12 (rakatskiy.blogspot.com)
** https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZB9...ew?usp=sharing
***Wise Eye OverUnity: GENERATORS CLEMENTE FIGUERA 1902-1908 (rakatskiy.blogspot.com)

[bistander]

The first - "the golden rule of generator design" was told to me by a designer of electromechanical machines. We had a correspondence regarding my publication about the generator of Karl Lutmer (Australia 1986)*. He was commissioned to design a similar machine, he was looking for the real patent AU53890/86. By the way, he found it in the patent database of Australia, and sent me the original scan (pdf**), which I posted on my blog for downloading. This golden rule follows from the problems of material consumption and Ohm's law for a circuit with a load. With a high resistance of the winding, it will be necessary to "maximize" the idle EMF, increase the number of turns, which will entail an increase in the electromagnetic moment of the machine and a decrease in its overall efficiency. These are the questions and answers from design engineers, and not from "short-sighted" physics teachers.

As for the design of the electrical circuit of the 1922 electric car, Figuera*** also used a resistive controller in his generator, today all this can be implemented through a semiconductor valve power supply system. The main thing is the operating principle of the electromagnetic system, and control is already engineering creativity. You did not see the main difference in control as a motor and as a generator, this is your mistake, not mine.

* Wise Eye OverUnity: MAGNETIC GENERATOR COP-12 (rakatskiy.blogspot.com)
** https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZB9...ew?usp=sharing
***Wise Eye OverUnity: GENERATORS CLEMENTE FIGUERA 1902-1908 (rakatskiy.blogspot.com)

Hi Rakarskiy,

--1986 AU. Application number: AU53890/86A. Filing date: 1986-02-24. Legal status: Abandoned. Application AU53890/86A events. A timeline of key events for this ...

per Google just today.

So not a real patent as you say that you were in search of and found, but an application long since abandoned. It contains a single claim "This generator will produce considerably more power than that required to drive it." Obviously trash from a crackpot.

You did not see the main difference in control as a motor and as a generator, this is your mistake, not mine.

I made no mistake. Perhaps you'd care to elaborate.
bi

[Rakarskiy]

Yes, there is a patent application, but the efficiency is too high. I know that the designers have solved the problem, but the efficiency does not exceed 200%. The further fate of the project is unknown to me, I was not informed. By the way, at the exhibition in Colorado in 1984 Bedini's installation with Kromri generator showed about 130 %. This is the same principle of acceleration-deceleration of the machine through the system of an explicitly pole machine.

Regarding the 1922 regeneration control, read the patent and do the necessary calculations to fulfil the condition of charging the battery and running the engine for propulsion.

[bistander]

Yes, there is a patent application, but the efficiency is too high. I know that the designers have solved the problem, but the efficiency does not exceed 200%. The further fate of the project is unknown to me, I was not informed. By the way, at the exhibition in Colorado in 1984 Bedini's installation with Kromri generator showed about 130 %. This is the same principle of acceleration-deceleration of the machine through the system of an explicitly pole machine.

Regarding the 1922 regeneration control, read the patent and do the necessary calculations to fulfil the condition of charging the battery and running the engine for propulsion.

You'll just believe anything.
Truth is motors and generators are the same. Neither have efficiency above 100%.
You keep repeating rumors and falsehoods and never show any proofs.
bi