Motor Generators

[Turion]

Can't argue with anything you said. It is all true. But that amp meter SEEMS TO BE set up for 60 htz, and does NOT give an accurate measurement no matter what. There HAVE been videos that I have received that show the input to the drive motor. This video just didn't happen to include that information. He doesn't have a scope, and he lives far from me. Like all the way across the country.

If the machine was in my shop, I could do those tests, if I hadn't loaned out my oscilloscope. But it is not, so I can't. The guys are back at it on my machine and when they have it working the way we want, I will travel to Sacramento and shoot some video that includes inputs and outputs. My board, which they have, has a volt meter and amp meter to measure the voltage and amperage produced by each coil PAIR, so that I could see the differences between coil pairs in case one of them had a problem, which turned out to be one of the problems with my friends machine, which we were able to solve by isolating coil pairs. When I have a video to post, I'll be back, otherwise I have other projects to work on.

[bistander]

Latest update from my friend. Still between 300/400 watts input and around 900 watts output.

I realize this is only half of what I claimed, 1800-2000 watts, which is what I had with my ORIGINAL machine, but here are the SIGNIFICANT differences between the two machines.

1. Core material in the ORIGINAL machine was iron. It got hot in 15-20 minutes and melted the coils. But the coil OUTPUT was DRAMATICALLY higher.

2. He is running at 2300 rpm. I was running at 2800-3000 rpm and the RPM just flat INCREASES THE OUTPUT. BY A LOT

I have explained that the current machine will NEVER output what my original machine did with the same number and size of coils because of the change in core material, but that doesn’t mean it DID NOT WORK, because it DID. No matter WHAT anyone here says. Just as this one works. Only this one does not work as WELL, simply because of the changes we have made to eliminate the overheating problem. The RPM can be adjusted upwards to INCREASE the output, but other changes have to be made to balance the system and keep it working correctly. If you understand what those changes need to be, it is just a TIME CONSUMING TASK to implement them through trial and error, but it can be done. If it was EASY, someone else would have already done it.


https://youtu.be/Kdlyt9pjAl0

I have shared all I am going to share on this machine. No one believes me anyway. And that's fine with me. I know what I know. It works. I know there are changes that can be made that will increase the output while improving efficiency. I have SEEN the effect of those changes. They are in the works on a new version of the machine, but thats for a different place and a different time. I would love to show up to the conference some year (definitely not THIS year) with a working version of this to demonstrate, but my machine is still in the shop!! And I know how many HOURS, DAYS AND WEEKS it took my friend to work out all the kinks in his setup. Even if I got it out of the shop tomorrow, there is no guarantee it would be ready in time for the conference. Once you have everything working correctly, you CAN replicate, but what two hand wound coils are the same? Differences MATTER. It is understanding what you have to do when you HAVE those differences.

And did I mention you can run between the positives and recover 85% of the input power? None of you believe in THAT either.

Here is an interesting example. I happen to know of a setup where 32 six volt batteries were gathered over a period of time from a place that has a lot of 6 volt golf cart batteries you can get for paying the "core charge". Some were no good, but some could be restored! EIghteen were put in series and 18 were put in parallel. A 48 volt inverter was put in between them running around 100 watts of load. It was run one direction for a while and then the parallel batteries were put in series and the series batteries put in parallel. Back and forth, over and over. It wasn't DONE this way to run a load, it was DONE to restore the batteries. The capacity of the batteries improves over time to greater than the listed capacity, and the charge that the batteries "reach" increases over time to over 14V, and rather than losing power, the total available power in the system has gone up. Those are facts. You can deny it is possible all you want, but what happens on the bench is what matters

Thanks for sharing Turion.

A couple of things:

You do not show input power (DC volts and DC amperes into motor would suffice). You state it is 300 to 400 watts. It does not seem to much to ask to take 5 seconds and film the meters simultaneously as you're running.

You have, as is shown in the video, and you say it, the current output wire looped around the clamp ammeter. This causes the meter reading to be twice (2 times) the actual current in the wire.

You do not measure power factor.

So there is no display during the video test giving input power or real output power, hence nothing to define power.

Another issue will be the output frequency/waveform which will likely be departure from 50/60 Hz sinusoidal. I thought you had a good scope. Why not use it along with the meters?

There are other ways to verify power, or energy. Easy to do, and convenient if you intend to loop it, is to rectify and filter the output, measure DC values. Load resistors would also give method to heat water and calculate caloric energy. Light bulb ratings are essentially useless.

bi

[Turion]

Latest update from my friend. Still between 300/400 watts input and around 900 watts output.

I realize this is only half of what I claimed, 1800-2000 watts, which is what I had with my ORIGINAL machine, but here are the SIGNIFICANT differences between the two machines.

1. Core material in the ORIGINAL machine was iron. It got hot in 15-20 minutes and melted the coils. But the coil OUTPUT was DRAMATICALLY higher.

2. He is running at 2300 rpm. I was running at 2800-3000 rpm and the RPM just flat INCREASES THE OUTPUT. BY A LOT

I have explained that the current machine will NEVER output what my original machine did with the same number and size of coils because of the change in core material, but that doesn’t mean it DID NOT WORK, because it DID. No matter WHAT anyone here says. Just as this one works. Only this one does not work as WELL, simply because of the changes we have made to eliminate the overheating problem. The RPM can be adjusted upwards to INCREASE the output, but other changes have to be made to balance the system and keep it working correctly. If you understand what those changes need to be, it is just a TIME CONSUMING TASK to implement them through trial and error, but it can be done. If it was EASY, someone else would have already done it.


https://youtu.be/Kdlyt9pjAl0

I have shared all I am going to share on this machine. No one believes me anyway. And that's fine with me. I know what I know. It works. I know there are changes that can be made that will increase the output while improving efficiency. I have SEEN the effect of those changes. They are in the works on a new version of the machine, but thats for a different place and a different time. I would love to show up to the conference some year (definitely not THIS year) with a working version of this to demonstrate, but my machine is still in the shop!! And I know how many HOURS, DAYS AND WEEKS it took my friend to work out all the kinks in his setup. Even if I got it out of the shop tomorrow, there is no guarantee it would be ready in time for the conference. Once you have everything working correctly, you CAN replicate, but what two hand wound coils are the same? Differences MATTER. It is understanding what you have to do when you HAVE those differences.

And did I mention you can run between the positives and recover 85% of the input power? None of you believe in THAT either.

Here is an interesting example. I happen to know of a setup where 32 six volt batteries were gathered over a period of time from a place that has a lot of 6 volt golf cart batteries you can get for paying the "core charge". Some were no good, but some could be restored! EIghteen were put in series and 18 were put in parallel. A 48 volt inverter was put in between them running around 100 watts of load. It was run one direction for a while and then the parallel batteries were put in series and the series batteries put in parallel. Back and forth, over and over. It wasn't DONE this way to run a load, it was DONE to restore the batteries. The capacity of the batteries improves over time to greater than the listed capacity, and the charge that the batteries "reach" increases over time to over 14V, and rather than losing power, the total available power in the system has gone up. Those are facts. You can deny it is possible all you want, but what happens on the bench is what matters

[Turion]

Latest update from my friend. Still between 300/400 watts input and around 900 watts output.

I realize this is only half of what I claimed, 1800-2000 watts, which is what I had with my ORIGINAL machine, but here are the significant differences.

1. Core material in that machine was iron. It got hot in 15-20 minutes and melted the coils. But the coil OUTPUT was dramatically higher.

2. He is running at 2300 rpm. I was running at 2800-3000 rpm and the RPM just flat increases the output. Again, by a LOT.

I have explained that the current machine will NEVER output what my original machine did with the same number and size of coils because of the change in core material, but that doesn’t mean it DOES NOT WORK, because it does. No matter WHAT anyone here says.

I will be posting his video here soon

[Turion]

Another update from my friend:

"Finally got an afternoon of testing in today. Lot of strange results. I will let you interpret. (12) coils wired for (6) wire setup produces a much more manageable consistent voltage that can be maintained between 110-120 vac. Higher amps allows for a wider range of capacitors. On a single pair of coils 1-3uf had the best effect so with all of them I began at 12uf where I'm still having good results. Been up to 25uf where you must drop RPMs to stay within 110-120vac window. Also, it drags down my already to weak drive motor. 12-14uf seem to work well as you can add a load, vary the load and unload with out much effect on RPMs which by the way needs to stay around 2300-2400rpm to stay in the voltage window. I still don't have anything to measure amps. Both new meters I just bought measure DC amps only. Been using a clap over current meter but they are calibrated for 60Hz AC only and like you said this is more like pulsed DC so I would not expect it to be very accurate. I have added every incandescent bulb, lamp and shop light I can find which includes (2) heat lamps, (1) flood light and (2) 60watt and a 500watt halogen security lamp. I can not get the clamp on current meter to register over 4 amps which I know is NOT correct. All bulbs stay full brightness and voltage stays in the window. When I add in the 500watt halogen tubular bulb in the mix only then will it dim the lights. I think when I tested it that way I only had 6uf on there. I will have to try it tomorrow with the 14uf (it likes14). I tried a regular drill and it works fine but a variable speed /reversible drill will not work or only spins real slow. It has a tiny SCR built in for variable speed and it does not like our kind of power. I read our hertz at 450-500hz. I had a blast tonight. I had the room lit up like a football stadium. I wonder what people driving down the road thought when then seen such bright lights glowing out my window. By the way, amp draw on my DC drive motor at 2300+ rpm was about 70vdc@4.50-5amps. If I have luck at 2300rpm I can go back to belt drive, gear it down a little and not lug the motor and draw less amps for the same rpm. I don't think we are putting out max amps yet but plenty of room for improvement and we could be real close to that L thing already. Gotta work on cleaning up this power next. With 15-24uf on there you can still get up over 150volts if you speed up to much and I blew an expensive heat lamp to prove it!"

My guys in Sacramento are about to get our machine out of the machine shop. Had it set up for a direct drive motor rather than the belt drive. Removed all metal parts possible from near the rotor. Cut the rotor down and removed the opposition magnets from the rotor. Also removed them from the stator. Will slide coils into position after motor is up to speed. Putting the coils in place AT SPEED still causes increased amp draw of the prime mover that can be neutralized, but if that’s necessary, we will do it with an additional, REMOVABLE rotor and REMOVABLE stator.

[Turion]

Meters are on input to prime mover motor for generator.
6 wire and 4 wire are the coils. His are wound with 12 strands, so he is putting two strands in series on some coils (to end up with six wires) and three strands in series on other coils (to end up with 4 wires) to see the effect on Lenz as well as output. With different configuration you have to operate at a different rpm to neutralize lenz, which affects the coil output. So testing determines the best combination. Because you MUST either change the rpm or change the coil configuration to nullify lenz, you must experiment to see what changes give you the most production as a generator coil. I have chosen to rewind all my coils with just three strands and adjust my rpm accordingly. He has coils wound with 12 strands and is not interested in redoing all his coils at this time.

Garlite disks are blocking the end of the "tube" the coil slides down so that it cannot hit the rotor. Needed a something not affected by the heat generated by the core end. Was testing diffewrent thicknesses and the effect on output.

[bistander]

Its a relief to have enough wire for 12 cores. Looks like enough left to do it again ! Still got 8 to insulate yet. Almost 85 ft. of wire each one. 250 pcs each is 3000 pcs I cut (the easy part with a machine and counter) and straightened by hand (the hard part). Interesting note; 2 of the 4 cores that are done were in the machine for the 4 hr. test. They are wrapped tight with 1/4 in. PVC tape that does not stretch. PVC melts @150 deg. yet no tape burnt back. They are just as you see and probably couldn`t pick the 2 out. That tells me all the heat is generated on the very end and eventually warms everything else up. I think we are safe with these cores. Remember I had steel wire cores melt epoxy thru out the whole core. We are safe.

My drive motor is an older 1HP Reliance ( bought out by Baldor) 90vdc-56C @ 2100rpm 8amp max. At about 90volts by my panel meter I can easily get 2400-2500RPMs. If I goose it up to 100vdc I can get 31-3200rpm and it still doesn't seem to get hot. Max amps it has pulled constant is 4 + with all 12 ferrite cores. I expect with 12 of these wire cores it may be much more and uncertain if this motor will still do it direct drive. I can always go back to belt an gear it down. In the back of my mind this is my failsafe since I`m so impressed with the output at very low rpms. I still have bright bulbs at 12-1300 rpms. I know we have the Lentz factor to deal with and low rpm may not be possible. Just got the Garlite, starting to work on the (2) disks and then just let it run while I do shop work.

Got (2) coils switched over to (6) wire setup and run a little. I would have to say best test so far. At 2400+ rpms with 2 X 60watt bulbs it holds 90+ volts and lights the bulbs to full brightness. Add a 1uf cap and voltage holds at 110-115 and with a 60watt bulb plugged in to a power strip right beside the (2) powered by the machine there is no difference at all. Thats target voltage for me but I`m afraid that still might be a little low so I am going to wire up (2) for (4) wire setup and try it.
(Lenz may be a problem at this low an RPM, so we will see.)

amp draw photo.png

Thanks for update.
Are meters on input to Reliance motor?
What is meant by (6) wire vs (4) wire setup?
What are Garlite/(2) disks?
bi

[Turion]

Its a relief to have enough wire for 12 cores. Looks like enough left to do it again ! Still got 8 to insulate yet. Almost 85 ft. of wire each one. 250 pcs each is 3000 pcs I cut (the easy part with a machine and counter) and straightened by hand (the hard part). Interesting note; 2 of the 4 cores that are done were in the machine for the 4 hr. test. They are wrapped tight with 1/4 in. PVC tape that does not stretch. PVC melts @150 deg. yet no tape burnt back. They are just as you see and probably couldn`t pick the 2 out. That tells me all the heat is generated on the very end and eventually warms everything else up. I think we are safe with these cores. Remember I had steel wire cores melt epoxy thru out the whole core. We are safe.

My drive motor is an older 1HP Reliance ( bought out by Baldor) 90vdc-56C @ 2100rpm 8amp max. At about 90volts by my panel meter I can easily get 2400-2500RPMs. If I goose it up to 100vdc I can get 31-3200rpm and it still doesn't seem to get hot. Max amps it has pulled constant is 4 + with all 12 ferrite cores. I expect with 12 of these wire cores it may be much more and uncertain if this motor will still do it direct drive. I can always go back to belt an gear it down. In the back of my mind this is my failsafe since I`m so impressed with the output at very low rpms. I still have bright bulbs at 12-1300 rpms. I know we have the Lentz factor to deal with and low rpm may not be possible. Just got the Garlite, starting to work on the (2) disks and then just let it run while I do shop work.

Got (2) coils switched over to (6) wire setup and run a little. I would have to say best test so far. At 2400+ rpms with 2 X 60watt bulbs it holds 90+ volts and lights the bulbs to full brightness. Add a 1uf cap and voltage holds at 110-115 and with a 60watt bulb plugged in to a power strip right beside the (2) powered by the machine there is no difference at all. Thats target voltage for me but I`m afraid that still might be a little low so I am going to wire up (2) for (4) wire setup and try it.
(Lenz may be a problem at this low an RPM, so we will see.)

amp draw photo.png

[Turion]

Update from my friend who has replicated. My guys will be back at it the end of the week. Words in red below are mine. Asked him about inserting copper or aluminum core. WIll see what he says. Don't get here often. No time.


"I see what you guys been working with and it makes my ferrite look puny! Got 1 solid NiFe50 wire (250pcs) core I soldered up with a 6/32 SS bolt up the center. (Core material I sent him.) Coupled it with a ferrite core (coil) with a wire center and (the two coils in series together) easily go way over 1000vac. (open voltage) Much higher amps too. Had to add a second 60watt bulb and it lights up both with just one solid core. Imagine 2.Only ran a few min and yes it got hot but not meltdown hot yet. But if you can do away with the bolt up the center and just drill and tap about 1 inch on the outside there is no bolt to get hot. With the ferrites the bolt is the only thing that gets hot. But get this... I was able to drop RPMs down to 1500 before any drop in voltage or dimming. If we are able to drop speed or more distance from rotor we will go a long way to kill the heat. You must be running a distance from the rotor yourself if you got a washer in the end of the coil. My cores stick out and I`m about 20 - 30 thousand clearance from the rotor."

So progress is slow but steady. We know how many watts it takes to run the machine with all coils in place, and adding the load doesn't affect the prime mover at all. So we know when the output of a couple coils exceeds the input we are in good shape. We're already THERE, and have been for some time.

[bistander]

That was a video from a couple months ago.The load on one generator was the motor running the other generator. The load on the second generator was incandescent light bulbs. Not sure how many, what wattage or anything. That is why I said the loads were UNEQUAL. I realize I need meters on this. I have tons of panel meters. All different values Both AC and DC. The problem is, the machine is not at my house right now, and it is still in pieces in Vaughn's garage. In about three (or less) weeks he will be back at this and then I will be able to supply more data. And will GIVE him some meters to put on things. Until then there is no reason for me to post here unless someone with a REPLICATION of my machine sends me something I think might be of interest. The individual who has the WORKING replication with ferrite cores in the coils is getting as high as 600 volts (depending on rpm) per coil, but little or no amps. The same coil on MY machine with a different core is getting amps, so I think the core material is the problem. The core material I am using does NOT heat up. It gets warm, but it can be run all day without the problem he is seeing from the steel cores he ran for only MINUTES. HEAT!!! That's the same kind of thing I saw with my original core material. It output lots of POWER, but if I ran the machine for more than 20 minutes I melted the wire. Hence months of research into what the best core material is that will put out the MOST power while still keeping the heat under control. We figured that part out already.

My original machine, with 12 coils, ran on less that 400 watts (sometimes under 300) and put out between 1800-2000 watts (depending on rpm and coil configuration) but only ran for about 20 minutes before burning up coils. So while it did exactly what I claim, it wasn't worth a CRAP if it couldn't perform long term. The NEW machine will NOT put out the same amount of power. PERIOD. But neither will the coils melt after 20 minutes. It still outputs more than it takes to run it by a considerable amount, but until all the kinks are worked out, I have no idea exactly what that is. I don't care if anybody here believes this is possible. There are now two others besides me with WORKING replications who see and believe. That's all I care about.

"My original machine, with 12 coils, ran on less that 400 watts (sometimes under 300) and put out between 1800-2000 watts (depending on rpm and coil configuration) but only ran for about 20 minutes before burning up coils. So while it did exactly what I claim, it wasn't worth a CRAP..."

Wasn't worth a crap...... You're nuts. If it could do that, for even 10 minutes, or 5, or 2, "proven", with real watts, it'd be worth $1,000,000,000+.
bi

[Turion]

That was a video from a couple months ago.The load on one generator was the motor running the other generator. The load on the second generator was incandescent light bulbs. Not sure how many, what wattage or anything. That is why I said the loads were UNEQUAL. I realize I need meters on this. I have tons of panel meters. All different values Both AC and DC. The problem is, the machine is not at my house right now, and it is still in pieces in Vaughn's garage. In about three (or less) weeks he will be back at this and then I will be able to supply more data. And will GIVE him some meters to put on things. Until then there is no reason for me to post here unless someone with a REPLICATION of my machine sends me something I think might be of interest. The individual who has the WORKING replication with ferrite cores in the coils is getting as high as 600 volts (depending on rpm) per coil, but little or no amps. The same coil on MY machine with a different core is getting amps, so I think the core material is the problem. The core material I am using does NOT heat up. It gets warm, but it can be run all day without the problem he is seeing from the steel cores he ran for only MINUTES. HEAT!!! That's the same kind of thing I saw with my original core material. It output lots of POWER, but if I ran the machine for more than 20 minutes I melted the wire. Hence months of research into what the best core material is that will put out the MOST power while still keeping the heat under control. We figured that part out already.

My original machine, with 12 coils, ran on less that 400 watts (sometimes under 300) and put out between 1800-2000 watts (depending on rpm and coil configuration) but only ran for about 20 minutes before burning up coils. So while it did exactly what I claim, it wasn't worth a CRAP if it couldn't perform long term. The NEW machine will NOT put out the same amount of power. PERIOD. But neither will the coils melt after 20 minutes. It still outputs more than it takes to run it by a considerable amount, but until all the kinks are worked out, I have no idea exactly what that is. I don't care if anybody here believes this is possible. There are now two others besides me with WORKING replications who see and believe. That's all I care about.

[bistander]

Orion and bi, my thoughts are with you with you both. Wish you and your families the best. Nothing is as important as family. Nothing.

bi, you can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The addition of the magnets neutralizes its effect on the motor and that's all I care about.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM6mHqy-6Sc

Here is a video of ONE machine with TWO coil pair running the other machine that ALSO has TWO coil pair connected to a load. One machine powering the other, and turning it at a HIGHER rpm, even though it has a BIGGER motor. In my mind that establishes that the first machine MAY be capable of putting out enough to run itself. I realize that the loads on both machines were not identical, and am not claiming that this particular setup could be looped. But I know what the inputs have been, I know what the outputs have been, and I know what the loads have been on the two different machines at various times. So I know what is possible. We are still a long way from done with experimenting. I wish I knew way more about conversion of reactive power to usable power. But we are having fun and learning some things every day.

My guys in Sacramento are about three weeks away from getting back to work on this, and I have been tied up with other projects. When they get rolling on this, I will have more to report. Until then, I only have what I am given, which is not always very much.

Hi Turion,
In that video, you're very concerned about measuring RPM. What you should be looking at is input powers. Both are DC motors driving each generator, right. Analog meters do a decent job of reading average values, even if you have PWM or rectified current. Use the motor terminal voltage and current. Then V times A is "real" power. You have V & A meters on the one but V isn't reading. You say:
"In my mind that establishes that the first machine MAY be capable of putting out enough to run itself."
It would be easy and plain to see if you had V & A meters on each drive motor.

In the video, one generator is loaded by the other, which is unloaded. Past readings or knowledge of past input and output powers don't mean anything. You need actual real time, simultaneous data to draw any valid conclusion. What you have there is a good experiment, it just needs a couple more meters.
bi

[Turion]

Orion and bi, my thoughts are with you with you both. Wish you and your families the best. Nothing is as important as family. Nothing.

bi, you can call it whatever you want. I don't care. The addition of the magnets neutralizes its effect on the motor and that's all I care about.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM6mHqy-6Sc

Here is a video of ONE machine with TWO coil pair running the other machine that ALSO has TWO coil pair connected to a load. One machine powering the other, and turning it at a HIGHER rpm, even though it has a BIGGER motor. In my mind that establishes that the first machine MAY be capable of putting out enough to run itself. I realize that the loads on both machines were not identical, and am not claiming that this particular setup could be looped. But I know what the inputs have been, I know what the outputs have been, and I know what the loads have been on the two different machines at various times. So I know what is possible. We are still a long way from done with experimenting. I wish I knew way more about conversion of reactive power to usable power. But we are having fun and learning some things every day.

My guys in Sacramento are about three weeks away from getting back to work on this, and I have been tied up with other projects. When they get rolling on this, I will have more to report. Until then, I only have what I am given, which is not always very much.

[bistander]

Orion,
I wish you and her luck. I'm immunocompromised and worry I'll pick up similar type infection. Been ill needing care several times for months. I'm fortunate to have a care giving partner and so is your wife. I know it's tough on the care giver.
God bless you.
bi

[OrionLightShip]

My comments were only to help David as I have to admire his persistence and ability to innovate and put the hours in at his shop. I wish I had his drive.
I don't know when I'll be back....it's been weeks of hell. My wife had a fungal mass removed that filled her right sinus cavity and wrapped around her eye. After culturing, a bacteria was also present and it is a super bug. That was a month ago.... so much pain for her. She's taking the only antibiotic and she still has a low grade fever every day. The infectious disease specialist has no clue. She has to force saline up there to try and keep everything trying to grow up there cleaned out. I've been doing all the shopping, cooking, cleaning, dishes and laundry as well as waiting on her and taking her to Doctor appts. I'm exhausted and this thing could end up killing her. Sometimes life just sucks. They say she has had this for decades so I won't be posting here again for a bit.