Motor Generators

[Turion]

Since this is just a prototype and I do not want to build another whole new machine I am going to probably just take what I get with the change I have made. I increased the length of the core material and the length of the wire. If the magnets aren’t enough to provide the flux it will require a design change. My original build had rotors on BOTH ends of the coils but I got the same output from a single rotor, so I assumed the cores couldn’t accept any more flux anyway.

Then I started reducing the diameter of the magnets and increasing their thickness and observing output at the same RPM. And I started experimenting with core materials and the size of cores and coils. This is the change in mass of core material Or mass of magnets I refer to. Mass can be used to mean size or volume. It doesn’t ALWAYS have to be the same definition as in physics. Originally it meant a DISORGANIZED volume of something. A cancerous tumor is sometimes referred to as a “mass” by doctors. It has nothing to do with physics in that definition. But slowly that “not physics” definition has changed to where it is used to mean simply a “larger amount” or in some cases LARGER amount. Larger magnets would, under this definition, have a greater mass. This may not be the Wikipedia definition of “mass” but it is used that way in literature, and that is my background, not physics or science. Search antonyms and you will see “mass” come up in reference to size quite often. Sorry I don’t live and die by Wikipedia. But a very famous writer (who was a terrible speller) once told me he had no respect for people who could only spell a word one way, and as long as the meaning was clear and people could read and understand, what difference does it make how it was spelled? I tend to feel the same about the meaning of words sometimes. Could the meaning be understood? If not, why not. We used to be able to communicate without dictionaries. How was THAT even possible? And who is the king who gets to decide what the definition of “mass” is? And who decides when enough people are using a word in a different way to change the Wikipedia definition? I can think of MANY words that were used differently than their dictionary definition until eventually that definition was added to the dictionary. The computer revolution changed the meaning of lots of terms besides bits, bites and program. I remember reading an entire novel where every word was written phonetically (the way it sounds) rather than the normal way it is spelled. At first it was weird, almost like a foreign language, but within a few pages it became quite easy. It was interesting.

Some people here have no desire to actually communicate. Their entire focus is proving that they are right and others are wrong. I am not going to change. Those who are having trouble understanding me are welcome to ask and I will do my very best to explain.

[BroMikey]

Not too long. The coil holder is that deep.

Really? Awesome, I can hardly wait to see if you get the power you need. A 1" core might be to large if you switched over because your magnets are 3/4".

This week is chemo. This mean's Monday thru Friday so I am struck on the open road. My numbers have shocked all of the Doctor's since the Leukemia is leaving. They said my age group with my problems die within 6 months. That would be April but instead my immune system has returned to normal. Big win for me. Only a few percent in my age bracket survive if they get AML.

God has revived me. Sweet, plus I feel so good.

[padova]

Hi Padova,
By size I presume that you refer to cross sectional area of the core as Turion has increased the length. Turion typically talks about the mass of the core Some folks do realize the importance of the cross sectional area. But in this case, where he is increasing the windings in the coil, a cross sectional area increase would not be needed, if it was sufficient before. The flux, and therefore flux density, is dependent on the field magnet, and that remains the same. Assuming the present operating condition is not saturated, then increase of area lowers the flux density and might lower the reluctance of the core, which would be of benefit, but so small as not to justify the added complexity (cost, time) to implement.
Good thought. Thanks for the discussion.
bi

Ok, thank you for clarification

[bistander]

Turion,
you should increase the size of the core, it's not the same material any more, you must provide magnetic path through the core,
I'm surprised that Bistander didn't mentioned that, considering that he's an expert in generators.

regards

Hi Padova,
By size I presume that you refer to cross sectional area of the core as Turion has increased the length. Turion typically talks about the mass of the core Some folks do realize the importance of the cross sectional area. But in this case, where he is increasing the windings in the coil, a cross sectional area increase would not be needed, if it was sufficient before. The flux, and therefore flux density, is dependent on the field magnet, and that remains the same. Assuming the present operating condition is not saturated, then increase of area lowers the flux density and might lower the reluctance of the core, which would be of benefit, but so small as not to justify the added complexity (cost, time) to implement.
Good thought. Thanks for the discussion.
bi

[padova]

Turion,
you should increase the size of the core, it's not the same material any more, you must provide magnetic path through the core,
I'm surprised that Bistander didn't mentioned that, considering that he's an expert in generators.

regards

[Turion]

Not too long. The coil holder is that deep.

[BroMikey]

Here is the new coil I wound (from the slinky coil wire...and THAT was fun!

If there is enough flux, it should work. If not, back to the drawing board.

should be ready to test by Friday.

Good job on the new winding "SUCCESS"!!! Let's hope it works. It will fit in loose? It's to long

[Turion]

Here is the “slinky” coil that broke in the middle inside. Here is the new coil I wound (from the slinky coil wire...and THAT was fun!) compared to a standard coil. We will see if I get any more voltage with the added wire length and longer core. If there is enough flux, it should work. If not, back to the drawing board. I forgot I had to paint the core material. and it must have time to dry before I glue it in. Will paint it tomorrow and glue the next day. Can wind another core while all that nonsense is going on, so should be ready to test by Friday.




4D204658-244D-4041-9498-59D0A3A23B21.jpeg 34B338AD-B939-4478-8AB9-BB22E098BD0C.jpeg

[Turion]

Sometimes I just throw something out there to see if anyone builds it and what problems they have. Sometimes I EXPECT they will have a problem because they have not seen everything I have seen on the bench, so they may run into what I ran into and not know how to get around it. But I have found that if you don't run into problems you might never learn the lesson they can teach you.

As far as this little 7th grade science experiment goes..... There ARE some things to know. So let's talk about a standard coil (with a core) as a generator coil. And just to save time let's assume ALL of our coils ALWAYS have cores, so that when we use the term "coil" we all KNOW there is a core there. (Some people haven't been able to get that through their heads, so I thought it worth bringing up)


When you turn a rotor using a motor coil that is in repulsion, the rotor spins at a specific RPM. Just like in the 7th Grade Science Experiment.

EXAMPLE ONE:
When you put an unloaded generator coil next to that rotor, the motor will slow down because it has to spin the rotor magnets past the core of that coil and they are attracted to that core. That is VERY easy to see in this simple experiment. Now, if you put an opposition magnet across the rotor (that has an even number of magnets on it) from the generator coil, you can neutralize that attraction and the rotor will speed back up. That is ALSO very easy to see and ABSOLUTELY proves what I have said is true.

EXAMPLE TWO:
Now take this same generator coil with the SAME opposition magnet IN PLACE, and put it under load. What happens NOW? Follow the sequence. At first the coil is in attraction to the rotor magnet so the opposition magnet works. But then Lenz kicks in and the coil is repelling the approaching magnet and the opposition magnet is ALSO repelling, so you have a BIG PROBLEM. LOAD ON THE MOTOR. Then polarity flips at TDC and the coil is once again attracting the magnet as it is moving away and the opposition magnet is still doing the same old (repulsion) thing. Did you gain an advantage or LOSE because you had the opposition magnet in place. You tell ME.

EXAMPLE THREE: Now look at what happens with a Lenz FREE coil. I will save you the effort of reading a bunch of explanation. It is the same as in example ONE.

The moral of the story is that if you DO NOT have a Lenz free coil as your generator coil you will only be able to take advantage of magnetic neutralization PART OF THE TIME whereas if you HAVE a Lenz neutral coil you can take advantage of it ALL OF THE TIME. Which is better? Which gets you gains?

Some people will try the 7th grade science experiment and it will work perfectly the first time. Some will have to add additional wire to their generator coil, because with LONG ENOUGH WIRE, even a single strand coil will become Lenz neutral at the correct RPM. Which is what I have said all along.

Have fun. Do the experiments. Learn a few things.

[BroMikey]

Here is Bob’s replication.

More importantly, it is doing the BENCH work rather than running your mouth about what you “know” to be the truth.

https://youtube.com/shorts/xbR7PCm1Mq8?feature=share

That is what must be done, speculation without a rotor for testing is just more junk on the table. Show me or get off the pot. You may not always have an explanation as to why the meter acts as a load on such a tiny toy motor with a 1/4" airgap. 30% efficiency? Nobody has a clue. Maybe a 3/8" gap? Rattling bearings at 700 rpm? Rpm unknown, many unknowns

Beginners make a mess, right bye? Torque tests difficult

[Turion]

Here is Bob’s replication. Notice he has his generator coil (attraction) directly across from his motor coil (repulsion). Adding the magnets cause some interesting things to happen with the magnetic fields. Input doesn’t go up, but what happens to output?

7th grade science. More importantly, it is doing the BENCH work rather than running your mouth about what you “know” to be the truth. Find an effect you SEE happening and figure out how to use it to benefit you. Let someone else worry about WHY it works. You worry about HOW to best use it.

https://youtube.com/shorts/xbR7PCm1Mq8?feature=share

[BroMikey]

Yes I understand, we are in a fire watch it is so dry out here. And winding large coils is not as easy as you might think. If that company cut off 2 bobbins and glued them together instead of a plastic fusion weld it may not take the stress. A perfect 3/4" spindle with large washers.

Have fun making those slinky's. Maybe they will all do that. I have put a soldering iron on glue joints using an 1/8th" plastic rod to get what I need. First you need a very tight dowel. Heat and melt the connections, pushing the material into the melted area and quickly mash the puddle with a blunt punch to cool it them rotate. Super glue will crack under stress. You got juked

It can be done but this process may seem like to much work the first time.

[Turion]

Well, it has been an eventful few days. My coil winder broke a couple days ago and sent a partially wound coil rolling around the room unspooling wire everywhere. Got that cleaned up.

Then while grinding a bolt for the NEW coil winder (to hold the new, longer coils) on the back porch, I started a fire in the leaves with hot pieces of metal I was grinding off. Got that put out.

Then I got one new coil completely wound and ready to have the core put in which WOULD have made it strong, but the two pieces of bobbin came apart where they were glued together, and now I have a ten pound slinky.

So got that semi-secured and will try to use the wire off it to wind another coil. Which means picking up a new bolt at Lowes tomorrow to grind and hoping I can get it done without burning the house down. I have two “L”‘shaped pieces of metal with 3/4 “ bearings in them. I can put a 3/4 bolt through my coil bobbin and secure it with large washers and nuts, and put each end of it through a bearing. Then one end of the bolt goes in my drill to spin it. That end has to be ground down because 3/4” is too big for my drill.

So that will take a bit of time tomorrow. if the bobbin I glued together today hold up, I will get one coil done tomorrow. If not, who knows. I may be forced to put a core in the bobbin before I wind it just so the two pieces stay together. That gives me a solid bobbin, but makes it hard to wind.

Problems, problems.

[BroMikey]

Bob says no increased amp draw to the motor coil by adding the magnets, but increased .....

I am busy working on the two coils for my big generator.

Eight people have now replicated this ............

Forget that toy motor and get those coils for your black beast The new coils are a really big deal. I don't want you side tracked. But your hand is still broke.

I'm working on it.

The magnets just speed everything up by contributing their magnetic field to the mix.

This is just a 7th grade science experiment to show that the opposition magnets work.

Bye will be so excited with this test. Do it Bye and make sure you do the load analysis before and after for efficiency "STAT"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ4lJdsHCR4

[Turion]

I'm working on it. Bob French has replicated and we have been doing experiments with it for several days now, just to see what we can come up with. He is getting the same results I am. The magnets just speed everything up by contributing their magnetic field to the mix. Bob says no increased amp draw to the motor coil by adding the magnets, but increased OUTPUT from the generator coil. Can't beat that. I have seen the increased output, but have not put an amp meter on it yet. I am busy working on the two coils for my big generator.

This is just a 7th grade science experiment to show that the opposition magnets work. Eight people have now replicated this and are seeing the same thing I have seen, so soon there will be too many people who have seen it and actually BUILT it for someone who builds nothing and tries to hide the truth to have much of an audience. The coils we are using are the ones for the little plastic Bedini 5 pole that lots of folks have lying around.