Motor Generators

[alexelectric]

Alex,
where did you get that. I lost my bookmark to where I ordered them from and my friend who is building these machines needs to order more bobbins. I’m OuT! I bought a CASE last time, so that shows you how many coils I have wound for the various versions I have built.

Here is the data Mr. Dave

Injection Molded Plastic Spools and Reels | Nortic Inc.

http://www.norticinc.com/plastic-spool/

[alexelectric]

Alex, thank you for that, if you have time could you please say the diameter of a finished coil.

The diameter of the finished coil is 1 or 2 millimeters less than the diameter (F),
And it depends on the length you wind, in one I built it with 256 feet each thread, there were 12 threads

[pmgriphone]

Dave, can you clarify if you used 253ft total length (so about 21ft per strain), or if you used 253ft per strain (that would be a total of 12*253=3036ft of wire).

Per the resistance measurement, it should be the first case (21ft per strain), but Alex's message above where he says 256ft each strain, got me confused.

[Turion]

Thanks Alex,
I recognized that data sheet the way it was set up and I have gone there several times in the last couple months giving a link to that page to others who were interested in buying bobbins from the same place I got mine so they would have the same ones. But somehow the bookmark disappeared. I had one for a different vender that does not carry what I want and I THOUGHT I deleted it, so it looks like I deleted the wrong one. I have too many bookmarks and late at night I have been weeding them out and putting them into folders so I can actually find them when I need them. Fat lot of good it does me if I delete the ones I meant to keep!

[alexelectric]

Dave, can you clarify if you used 253ft total length (so about 21ft per strain), or if you used 253ft per strain (that would be a total of 12*253=3036ft of wire).

Per the resistance measurement, it should be the first case (21ft per strain), but Alex's message above where he says 256ft each strain, got me confused.

The one I built was 256 feet per line, 12 lines, on the spool I showed, Mr. Dave built it according to the data he sent us

[Quantum_well]

Super, thank you. I'm going to try and do some calculations.

[pmgriphone]

Ok Alex, thanks for clarifying that.

So then I estimate the total number of series windings for Dave's case at around 436, or about 36 (=436/12) windings per bundle of 12 strains.

This would approximate the effective relative permeability of the iron core to about 23, which seems a bit low if the core is iron. This is a value that I would more expect for a ferrite core.

For the inductance of an air coil (no iron), I would then estimate a value of about 6.4mH for the inductance.

Dave, would be good if you can verify that at some point in the future when you wind a coil without core.

[Turion]

I have a coil wound with no core in it, but still need to strip ends and make connections. Does it matter if I just connect all 12 strands in parallel to take these measurements? That would be easiest, but either way, I will get those readings sometime today. It may be late as I am pulling up decking now and then my mom comes for dinner every Saturday. She and my wife spend the evening doing their “on line” grocery shopping for the week, so I will have time then.

[pmgriphone]

I have a coil wound with no core in it, but still need to strip ends and make connections. Does it matter if I just connect all 12 strands in parallel to take these measurements? That would be easiest, but either way, I will get those readings sometime today. It may be late as I am pulling up decking now and then my mom comes for dinner every Saturday. She and my wife spend the evening doing their “on line” grocery shopping for the week, so I will have time then.

Would actually be good to test both cases so you can see how things change.

So put them all in parallel and measure L, C and R without the core. Then later on measure them when they are in series.

You should measure 1/12 of the resistance, 1/144 of inductance and for capacitance, we will find out...

[BroMikey]

Just food for thought having to do with coils that generate power without slowing down the rotor. One time I built a 20 magnet rotor running at 3400 rpm. This design has noting to do with the black beauty box. What I am about to explain is my own coil and my testing data.

The coil has 24 strands and each strand made from 25awg magnet wire is 175ft long

The ohms are easy to find per strand.

At 3400rpm I connected a load up to strand #1 and the rotor would begin slowing down. For each increase on the load side the drive side power increased around the same amount or a little more on the drive side. This piece of wire is the exact length of wire and size awg found in a standard washing machine pump on one of the 2 sides. These pumps use horse shoe cores and each side has a 175ft coil on each of them.

These pump run around the same RPM and I wanted to see why this exact length was chosen. Not that any of that makes any difference to the experiment, just wanted to share why I used this length. So 24 coils of 175ft long gave me a 4200ft ball of wire.

Next I connected 2,3,4,5 strands of 175ft each in series and loaded these coils. I still have the machine. I don't dismantle my machines. I don't scavenger one machine to build another. Once I build one, that's it, I don't change it.

5 coils of 175ft = 875ft and the rotor still began slowing down when a load was placed across the 2 wires. Also you may be interested to know that my gap from magnet to core is 1/6" to get these results and a bigger gap gave much less.

Each 175ft coil gave an additional 20volts more each time added in series. Next I went to 6,7 and 8th strand connection
and each time I loaded the 6th,7th or 8th strand the rotor did not slow down and make the input power climb up. This is the NULL point.

So I continued up to 17 strands at 700-800vac and upon loading the light bulb under a hundred volts the rotor speed climbed wildly out of sight going from 3400 rpm to over 4000rpm and higher. The drive watts dropped by 40w at this time. The rpm was run away crazy scary. I like the NULL better, everything is stable. Just keep adding series connections to 1000 ft and put 3,4,5 of those in parallel.

[Turion]

Greyland’s boys checked in a bit ago with some results I didn’t much like hearing. They have a 12 magnet rotor. They have coils just like mine with 12 strands of #23 wire wound in parallel and 4 connected in series. Iron/steel core. They started at I don’t remember what voltage with their motor controller and tried to achieve speed up under load, but I DO remember it was at 1620 RPM, and kept turning it off, adjusting the voltage upwards a bit, turning it back on, letting it get up to speed, and then turning on the light. They worked all the way up to 3200 RPM and NO speed up under load. I don’t know if they are doing something wrong or if they simply need to continue to reduce input to get the RPM lower to achieve Speed up under load. Will be another week before they try again. 1620
is pretty low. Didn’t think it would need to go THAT low!!!!!!!!!

[alexelectric]

Be careful not to have the acceleration at 2800 rpm, one tries to obtain it at more rpm 3000 rpm and more, that is already careful, that is what happened to me, when I go back to work I will not go more than 2800 rpm, on the contrary I want to work with coils that accelerate or find the neutral point at lower rpm

[BroMikey]

Be careful not to have the acceleration at 2800 rpm, one tries to obtain it at more rpm 3000

Especially if you are running a liquid rotor. Plastic is not a solid like stainless steel is. You guys all need to stay at 2800rpm or slower. As your ability to engineer and technology increases for the building of rotors be very careful to stay down low r's.

However if a rotor can be built safely for higher speeds I always put my rotors behind a wall. Protect first. Never stand in front of a rotor without a shield. I quess you found that out.

If efficiency at higher speeds is the goal then specialize rotor designs must follow. For instance I have a 51 strand coil with 75ft lengths. Using a 6" dia rotor with 10 magnets on it I reached the NULL at very low RPM's at around 25 series connections. That is 75ft X 25 wires = 1875ft of series connected strands. The rpm was 1200 of less.

The reverse is also true, at 4000rpm the series connected strands might be as a low as 750 feet instead of 1000feet at 2800r's. So the speed up or NULL point is all up to you.

If a 5000rpm unit is created it could put out as much as 4X the slower moving rotors and still have infinite efficiency.

But first things first, build a model that works that is reasonable and that is a 2800 rpm tp 3800 rpm somewhere in this range is good. If plastic is used for the rotor remember slower is safer. All back yard engineering concoction are subject to a greater failure rate than perfected designs, so cover your AZZ

My experiences, good day. Read the meters and weep.All video fact apply to all of these systems. This was first explained 14yrs ago.

[Turion]

Actually, Tesla patented this concept 127 years ago, and it entered the public domain 107 years ago. A significant amount of literature at the time discusses it. Why we are still not taking advantage of this simple technology TODAY in the construction of ALL motors and generators blows my mind.

Alex,
My goal with the 12 strands of 253 feet rather than 3 strands of 1003 feet was to get SUUL at less than 2800 RPM. But I didn't imagine it would be at LESS than 1620. They say NO good results between 1620 and 3200, so either they have that coil connected wrong somehow, or SUUL is at lower than 1620. This is the problem of getting reports from others rather than doing it myself. I sometimes don't know what to trust, and usually have to verify for myself. And since MY rotor has 22 magnets instead of 12, my results willl be different with the exact same coil.

[alexelectric]

If you run your current generator 2800 rpm, you will have a lot of induction, as you have more magnets, you can also operate it at minus 1400-1800 rpm, but you will know the optimal operation when you perform the tests.

Of course, more rpm, more induction, but more risks, for a home generator.

You had already commented that you once generated at 1400 rpm.

Mr. Dave you have worked and experimented a lot, just like Mikey.