Motor Generators

[BroMikey]

I know it, these motor/generator work so many different ways

and people around the world still don't know which end is up.

The air cores and non air cores with a never ending combination

of magnet genny/moto always leaves me spell bound as the list goes

on.

One thing is sure, I always forget the splitting the pos. Thanks for

the reminder. I hope you and "E" get stuff lined up to where others

can see your version running.


After people see it running they will become more interested. Until then

it is our uphill climb with the fears of losing our inventions to blood suckers

all the way to becoming a target.


Most devices with COP over 1 to about 1.5 are considered boarder line

so I like the way you bring out that enormous rating as part of your

defense. Now that cracks me up. But that is what we face. I know

that there are many possibilities with the flat mag genny's and the guys

doing the setup must be willing to share their info so the next group

of younger men can spend untold thousands of hours bringing the

advancement that makes the machine cost effective.


If you ask me? The guys you see running these motor/genny's are doing

it for the fun of it and they don't care to be bothered with speculations.

He lives for the experiment and the chatter is meanless in many cases

because he doesn't know how to fit into his world.


Each man is in his own small cubical where he either enjoys the work

and one day succeeds or it all just lands in the closet.

What you have said Dave is a key to reactive power.


That is another thing, terms, and how everyone has their own idea

about what a term means. The video's will win the battle hands down.

[Turion]

erfinder,
To answer your question about acceleration under load using air cores. Yes, we've made progression on that front. I have gotten acceleration under load with several (well, 3 is not really several) differential coil configurations. I WAS spending the time to try and figure out which configuration produced the most power, and then got evacuated because of the fire and have not been back to work on it since, but I will continue to work on that in my spare time.

You are absolutely correct that using external motors is a waste of resources, but it is a proof of concept that anyone with a dc motor and some wire to wrap a couple coils can build. And once folks SEE what is possible, perhaps they will invest the money needed to move forward in the RIGHT direction. I started out with my big 12 coil generator being run by a small razor scooter motor with recovery circuits. It worked. Then to increase production I started using some of the motor coils as drive coils to eliminate the motor. Then I switched to air core coils to avoid the magnetic lock of the magnets to the coil cores. Then I started looking at wiring configurations that would speed up the motor under load and still produce power as generating coils. You have to look at every part of a build and figure out what you can do to tweet it to improve production. As you well know, learning this stuff is a process. Too many folks here want to run before they have learned to walk or even crawl, and as you move through a progression of learning you pick up bits and pieces of information about how to build that each add small improvements to your project. And all those bits and pieces put together is the difference between success and failure, or the difference between COP of 2 and COP of 10 or more. Our belief is that if it doesn't have a COP of at least 8, you aren't there yet.

Dave

[sprocket]

I don't suppose that Turion or erfinder would care to comment on a setup where a low voltage DC motor is driven, pulsed with a much higher DC voltage, to turn an external (resource-wasteful!) generator. It has been suggested that Lenz-loading of the PM may be much reduced using this setup.

[boguslaw]

There are so many methods.... but all require either modification of motor or generator or creating additional circuit and special method of pulsing or placing strong magnets inside generator or a special flywheel and so on.....

[erfinder]

erfinder,
To answer your question about acceleration under load using air cores. Yes, we've made progression on that front. I have gotten acceleration under load with several (well, 3 is not really several) differential coil configurations. I WAS spending the time to try and figure out which configuration produced the most power, and then got evacuated because of the fire and have not been back to work on it since, but I will continue to work on that in my spare time.

You are absolutely correct that using external motors is a waste of resources, but it is a proof of concept that anyone with a dc motor and some wire to wrap a couple coils can build. And once folks SEE what is possible, perhaps they will invest the money needed to move forward in the RIGHT direction. I started out with my big 12 coil generator being run by a small razor scooter motor with recovery circuits. It worked. Then to increase production I started using some of the motor coils as drive coils to eliminate the motor. Then I switched to air core coils to avoid the magnetic lock of the magnets to the coil cores. Then I started looking at wiring configurations that would speed up the motor under load and still produce power as generating coils. You have to look at every part of a build and figure out what you can do to tweet it to improve production. As you well know, learning this stuff is a process. Too many folks here want to run before they have learned to walk or even crawl, and as you move through a progression of learning you pick up bits and pieces of information about how to build that each add small improvements to your project. And all those bits and pieces put together is the difference between success and failure, or the difference between COP of 2 and COP of 10 or more. Our belief is that if it doesn't have a COP of at least 8, you aren't there yet.

Dave

Mike,

In my opinion the key to converting so-called "reactive power" is to be found, specifically, in those cases in which dynamo electric or magneto electric machines are the focus, is in the relation between the reactive power generating mechanism and transformer action.

Turion,

I appreciate your dedication to the effort, and it's good to read that you too are aware of the fact that there is no advantage nor benefit to be found in separating the motor from the generator, especially in light of the fact that in unmodified off the shelf prime movers, we note that the current limiting mechanism is a generator, one whose output we are not at liberty to utilize.

Concept proofs for the purpose of sharing an idea in part is a waste of resources, I say that because in the end, the presenter will usually have a superior concept in the works, and for whatever reason will not share this superior concept with those he/she is "claiming" to be helping with the dumb down version. The funds that the replicator would/could invest should be invested in the superior concept and not in the inferior. When all is said and done, the replicator will be forced to invest twice. However I digress......

Motoring and generating are for better or worse joined at the hip. We must accept this, and in so doing, comprehend that which is needed so as to manipulate the internal generator, facilitating the use of the generated, while it simultaneously limits the input current. Most chose not to go this route because it requires effort, were as the joining of two devices one dedicated to motoring and the other dedicated to generating together via a common shaft or other torque translating means is easy. I completely disagree with the latter approach as we learn very little about the identity and nature of either, nor do we glimpse the intimate relationship which exists between the two, and find that which enables us to see them as an expression of one and the same thing.

The pursuit of the latter is more often than not replaced with what you have indicated, namely, the COP discussion/debate. When the input versus output discussions become the focus, when it overtakes any discussion of the inner workings, all hope is lost. You know this, it is a trend which can be viewed all over this forum, and all others where ideas being presented have reached the point where input and output are being compared.

Our machines swim in a sea of invisible (interesting word) stressed substance. Via our permanent and electromagnets we manipulate this substance, one could say that we are manipulating space/counter space itself, the combination of magnets and coils in the machines are likened to key, door, and lock. The presently practiced methods only allow the door to be cracked, allowing only a trickle of what's moving about the system to pass through the to the attached load. All that to say this....wouldn't it be awesome if through our comprehension of the relationship found to exist between motoring and generating, find that combination which fully opens the door, and in so doing, enable the infinite which surrounds the machine to drive the attached load? I'm thinking that under such circumstances, COP discussions become moot. At long last, I see what Tom Bearden was suggesting when he suggested that there is 10^13 (statement can be read in a patent granted to John Bedini) energy around a powered EMF circuit, moot indeed.


Regards

[erfinder]

I don't suppose that Turion or erfinder would care to comment on a setup where a low voltage DC motor is driven, pulsed with a much higher DC voltage, to turn an external (resource-wasteful!) generator. It has been suggested that Lenz-loading of the PM may be much reduced using this setup.

I can only offer you my opinion, an opinion which is based on my limited experience.

We need to understand the generator mechanism operating in the prime mover. Your motor is a generator, it is a generator before you put any power into it forcing it to operate as a motor. It is a generator while its motoring, and this issue must be addressed. Can we use this generated energy, if yes how, if no why not.

If and when you are able to manipulate the generator action operating within your prime mover, at this point one can begin looking at a proper generator, one which should be inductively coupled to the motor. A generator which is inductively coupled to the motor benefits from the field of the motor. Meaning the higher the consumption in the motor the higher the output of the generator. It should also be pointed out that the generator action is accomplished by two very different and unique (for the situation) flux linking and cutting mechanisms.

Pretty sure this isn't what you wanted, but I hope it helps, and doesn't fall a closed mind.



Regards

[erfinder]

There are so many methods.... but all require either modification of motor or generator or creating additional circuit and special method of pulsing or placing strong magnets inside generator or a special flywheel and so on.....

The art is in finding the one. The one will require modification of the windings, it will also require the proper drive circuitry, it may require the use of strong magnets and could possibly benefit from the addition of a flywheel.

In the end these things are cosmetic. What matters, at least to me, is knowing exactly what you want, and being able to spot, isolate and correct the problem. In this particular case, we want a motor-generator. We know that motors are generators and vice versa. What we seek we already have, the task before us is understanding what is required to properly relate the two aspects in a manner which works to our advantage. This requires effort, more than some are ready and or are willing to invest.


Regards

[sprocket]

@boguslaw - There may be many methods possible, but there are damn few that are public and easily reproducible!

@erfinder - Thanks for the response. Having followed 'Brad's' progress, I'm aware that the motor/generator can co-existing as one unit is a reality. It is also an enigma wrapped up in a conundrum, at least to me! Then there was 'Syair's' generator. I have no doubt that that was real as well. So as boguslaw says, there's more than one way to skin a cat...

[mbrownn]

Erfinder, I have been harping on about this for years, as you know.

As you know I got around one of the motor/generator problems with a 90 degree phase shift in the field coils, In effect it is no longer a motor, but a self motoring generator with an energizer coil. Once the device is activated it becomes self energizing. There is greatly reduced BEMF as no generation occurs in the energiser/Motor field coils.

Yes Turion, mine is pulsed, which leads to transformer actions between the energizer and generator coils and just as in a transformer, inductance is lowered allowing more current to flow. This causes acceleration under load in the sense that as more current is drawn from the generator coils, more current can flow through the energizer coils. As a result, the stronger fields cause acceleration.

I posted some of the basic information in how some of the device works in the Interesting motor thread over a year ago. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...eresting+motor But this is only the DC operation. I haven't got everything worked out for the pulsed DC operation and it remains unfinished at this time but I am happy to let people know what I am doing if they actually build it.

Key points on efficiency

1 With the motor and generator in one case we only have one set of iron losses.
2 The transformer acts at the same time and on the same core and with the same wingdings so while we have 3 functions, the iron losses remain as if it were only one device. The copper losses remain as if it were 2 devices and not 3
3 We only have one set of friction and windage losses.

I dont know if what you are doing is similar, but if it is, get back to me

[erfinder]

Erfinder, I have been harping on about this for years, as you know.

As you know I got around one of the motor/generator problems with a 90 degree phase shift in the field coils, In effect it is no longer a motor, but a self motoring generator with an energizer coil. Once the device is activated it becomes self energizing. There is greatly reduced BEMF as no generation occurs in the energiser/Motor field coils.

Yes Turion, mine is pulsed, which leads to transformer actions between the energizer and generator coils and just as in a transformer, inductance is lowered allowing more current to flow. This causes acceleration under load in the sense that as more current is drawn from the generator coils, more current can flow through the energizer coils. As a result, the stronger fields cause acceleration.

I posted some of the basic information in how some of the device works in the Interesting motor thread over a year ago. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...eresting+motor But this is only the DC operation. I haven't got everything worked out for the pulsed DC operation and it remains unfinished at this time but I am happy to let people know what I am doing if they actually build it.

Key points on efficiency

1 With the motor and generator in one case we only have one set of iron losses.
2 The transformer acts at the same time and on the same core and with the same wingdings so while we have 3 functions, the iron losses remain as if it were only one device. The copper losses remain as if it were 2 devices and not 3
3 We only have one set of friction and windage losses.

I dont know if what you are doing is similar, but if it is, get back to me

I feel it is important to differentiate between phase shifts which are a result of relations between "proper" reactive components, and shifts which relate specifically to the fixed (offset) structures which have a mutually inductive and or capacitive relationship within the system. Upon ascertaining the difference, the relation that the two have to one another is determined. I view the system as a tank circuit, operating in a condition which I consider the mechanical equivalent of parallel LC resonance. With this in mind, resonance as I interpret it, and as it manifests in my systems, is used to maximize the production of CEMF. This runs against the logic of the majority, most conclude that CEMF is bad and must be eliminated at all costs. What they fail to recognize is that the thing they are hell bent on eliminating is exactly what they are looking for. This doesn't begin to make sense until one views the apparatus like a tank circuit, and begins to appreciate what opposition to change means as it relates to inductance and capacitance as they themselves are the vehicles through which voltage and current are made manifest. The true hurdle lies in identifying the real circuit capacitance.

The term motor makes no sense when we view the machine from the perspective of what it does prior to passing current through it. The machine is and shall remain a dynamo. Motoring is in this light is reduced to an effect which we superimpose onto the already present and operating generating function.

Ultimately, I have this idea, the system should be allowed to do what it wants, how it wants, when it wants. It should be able to do this without the need of my influence. My job is to familiarize myself with the ways of the force, and to place my sails in its wake.


Regards

[BroMikey]

It worked. Then to increase production I started using some of the motor coils as drive coils to eliminate the motor.

Then I switched to air core coils

Dave

Hey Dave

Did you mean motor drive coils are replacing generator coils

or motor coils added next to the gen/coils?? Could you let me

know if this is a misquote or what you are really doing?

PS:Note: In the last video he shows a diagram, do you agree with it?

Mike,

In my opinion the key to converting so-called "reactive power" is to be found, specifically, in those cases in which dynamo electric or magneto electric machines are the focus, is in the relation between the reactive power generating mechanism and transformer action.


Regards

Okay Thanks "E" you'll have to start slow for me. So which system

category does your setup fall under? I honestly don't

know.

[BroMikey]

cause acceleration.

I posted some of the basic information in how some of the device works in the Interesting motor thread over a year ago. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...eresting+motor But this is only the DC operation. I haven't got everything worked out for the pulsed DC operation and it remains unfinished at this time

Did you ever want to make your own flat motor on a disk? Instead of

being stuck with a conventional motor core? Or did you do that already?

[Turion]

The generator has 12 coils, all of which are "generator" coils, but it is wired so that ANY or ALL of the coils can be pulsed as motor coils. It was a lot of work to set it up that way, but when you are experimenting, you want your options open.

I am STILL working on my generator, mostly because I have so much invested in it already, and it is a good research platform. BUT, the final design we post may be vastly different as we have been working on some things that SEEM to be proving out. Once we are SURE, it will get posted here for others to replicate, but not before.

Dave

[BroMikey]

The generator has 12 coils, all of which are "generator" coils, but it is wired so that ANY or ALL of the coils can be pulsed as motor coils. It was a lot of work to set it up that way..................................

Dave

Goodness, I'll say it must have. That is a lot of fancy switching boys, nice

going. We all know who is doing the tricky circuit. I am of course unaware

of exactly what your circuit entails but I would venture to say that using

short pulses the coils will motor just as you say. Next the same coil had

an off timewell off to that circuit so why not just have the backlash

be gobbled back up using another adjacent circuit.


That is a lot of possibilities for experiments. Pulsing coils and collecting

up the BEMF or whatever ya call it.

[mbrownn]

I feel it is important to differentiate between phase shifts which are a result of relations between "proper" reactive components, and shifts which relate specifically to the fixed (offset) structures which have a mutually inductive and or capacitive relationship within the system. Upon ascertaining the difference, the relation that the two have to one another is determined. I view the system as a tank circuit, operating in a condition which I consider the mechanical equivalent of parallel LC resonance. With this in mind, resonance as I interpret it, and as it manifests in my systems, is used to maximize the production of CEMF. This runs against the logic of the majority, most conclude that CEMF is bad and must be eliminated at all costs. What they fail to recognize is that the thing they are hell bent on eliminating is exactly what they are looking for. This doesn't begin to make sense until one views the apparatus like a tank circuit, and begins to appreciate what opposition to change means as it relates to inductance and capacitance as they themselves are the vehicles through which voltage and current are made manifest. The true hurdle lies in identifying the real circuit capacitance.

The term motor makes no sense when we view the machine from the perspective of what it does prior to passing current through it. The machine is and shall remain a dynamo. Motoring is in this light is reduced to an effect which we superimpose onto the already present and operating generating function.

Ultimately, I have this idea, the system should be allowed to do what it wants, how it wants, when it wants. It should be able to do this without the need of my influence. My job is to familiarize myself with the ways of the force, and to place my sails in its wake.


Regards

All good points, at least the parts I understand All i did was move the position of the field coil to that where no BEMF was generated in it while leaving the second field coil to act as a generator coil. It is interesting that the torque is applied at the generator field coil and not at the powered motor coil, hence i say energizer coil these days. If you dont want BEMF in a coil, place it where there wont be BEMF generated, the flux can be made to pass where you want it just the same and make the thing turn and generate in the same location. By doing this we have separated the BEMF from the forward EMF just as we wanted but to do it we have to run it in attraction.

So what we have is a dynamo that turns itself and by feeding the output from the generating field coil through the armature and Energizer coil we have a self exciting dynamo. Does this make sense? No it does not run itself at this point, but its a step closer. This is the DC operation.

As you say, its doing what it wants to do.