Microsecond pulsing

[Turion]

Greetings all,

For those of you who have read Thomas Beardon and the PJ Kelly book, there is some discussion of what happens when you quickly connect and disconnect to a battery. If the connection is quick enough, you can pull energy out of the battery WITHOUT actually discharging the battery because your pulse is quicker than the chemical reactions that take place within the battery itself. In the past, this was not possible, but with today's technology....

It is a THEORY, and mechanical connections are not quick enough to make it happen. It needs a connection in the Millisecond, if not Microsecond range. Even an Arduino is not capable, (or so the stat sheet says....Millisecond range only) of making a connection that fast.

With that in mind, I have been doing a little research and development squeezed in between all the OTHER things I am working on. I keep saying we need the right circuit to power a free energy device. So maybe this is it.

Using the following:

Amazon.com: SainSmart 8-Channel 5V Solid State Relay Module Board for Arduino Uno Duemilanove MEGA2560 MEGA1280 ARM DSP PIC: Car Electronics

Connected to an old printer cable plugged into the back of the computer, I'm going to try to use 8 batteries pulsed sequentially to run a pulse motor (which COULD turn a generator of your choice, or if you have a generator/motor combo you could drive that also.) The idea is that by pulsing 8 batteries in a row for microseconds before returning to the first battery again, you give each battery time to pulse and recover before it is pulsed again. With TWO of these boards I could pulse more batteries in series, because there are lots of extra wires in that printer cable, but I'll try it with 8 and see what happens. If it works, try reducing the number of batteries and playing around with the duration of the pulse to see what is optimal. There can be some off time between each pulse also, giving each individual battery more recovery time.

A prototype has been built that is connected to a light bulb rather than a motor, (just to see what would happen and if our code was flawed) and it works.

We're running in Visual Basic 6.0, since it is FREE. As this progresses over the next week or so, I will keep you all posted. Anyone with a computer that has an old printer port on the back is welcome to climb on board and ride along. You'll need the board I listed above, a power supply for said board, and a switch to turn on the power. You'll also need some batteries and a DC motor. I'd be happy to share the code with anyone who is daring enough to download an .exe file from a total stranger onto there computer and execute it. ;-) You don't have any secrets on there anyway, right? A PIC chip is fast enough to do the switching between batteries, and that is what I would eventually move to, but for now I am running it off the computer in my garage.

Dave

[Ernst]

Let's do an over-simplified thought experiment.
The chemical reaction is slow and can provide 1 electron per millisecond. It takes 100 ms to charge the batteries electrode with 100 electrons which is its equilibrium.
In 1 microsecond you quickly take out 1 electron, now the equilibrium is disturbed and the chemical process will kick into action, and after 1 ms the equilibrium is restored and we have again 100 electrons sitting on the electrode.

How were you planning on using this?


Ernst.

[Turion]

The problem with your thought experiment is that until someone does the experimenting, we don't know how log the "on time" can be that we are connected to a battery before it begins to discharge, nor do we know how much power we can get out during that on time, nor do we know what the recovery time needs to be, nor what will happen when you pull from a number of batteries sequentially.

Your implication seems to be that I will get one electron of energy and that isn't enough to do anything with. But we don't KNOW that. That's why we experiment.



BE CAREFULL WHEN YOU FOLLOW THE MASSES
......Sometimes the "M" is silent.

[Ernst]

Your implication seems to be that I will get one electron of energy and that isn't enough to do anything with. But we don't KNOW that. That's why we experiment.
.

No, that is not what I mean. 1 electron is virtually no energy, I just put in some quantity to make it possible to talk about the process.
What I mean to say is that you draw some (minute) charge that has collected on the battery's electrode because of the electro-chemical process. This charge and the electro-chemical process were in an equilibrium which you disturb by removing charge.
Now, you say you draw the charge and stop before the electro-chemical process kicks in.
But that doesn't matter, because by removing charge you have disturbed the equilibrium and consequently the electro-chemical process will start (discharging your battery),
and continue until the equilibrium is re-established, whether you continue to draw current or not.
So, my point is that the battery will discharge if you draw a current from it, either at the time that you draw this current or during, what you call, the recovery time.
I don't see how a micro pulse would not discharge the battery, it only discharges the battery after the pulse instead of during the pulse.

If you want to find this out with your experiment, then by all means do your experiments, but it is all proven facts... (as far as I understand what you are trying to do).

Ernst.

[Turion]

The board I am using (and posted a link to) is an AC board, so it may not work anyway. It worked connected to AC power as in the picture I posted during testing, but have yet to use it with batteries.

Anyway, we will see what we will see. According to Beardon and others, you can get voltage from a battery with a fast enough switch WITHOUT current. I guess my understanding is just different than yours.

Dave

[Dwane]

Battery Pulse

Greetings all,

For those of you who have read Thomas Beardon and the PJ Kelly book, there is some discussion of what happens when you quickly connect and disconnect to a battery. If the connection is quick enough, you can pull energy out of the battery WITHOUT actually discharging the battery because your pulse is quicker than the chemical reactions that take place within the battery itself. In the past, this was not possible, but with today's technology....

Dave

Hi Dave,
I would think that quite a few people have pondered Tom Beardon's explanation of battery popping. I see it a little bit differently to the manner with which you have suggested. From my perspective, what Tom Beardon is suggesting is the pulsing of the sulphate ions as they are attempting to discharge with a short sharp pulse so that a reversal of mode occurs. This then causes a charging effect within the battery as the sulphate ions now are deemed to be moving in a charge momentum rather than a discharge momentum. As a consequence, an excess of electrons are produced at the negative battery terminal ready to be drawn off into a load. As Electrons travel at approximately 100 times faster than the sulphate ions their appearance at the negative terminal is an immediate sign of excess energy occurrence and especially so when multiple pulsing exists. The electrons having moved very quickly towards the terminal ready for the load before the sulphate ion reverses its direction of travel. So the situation becomes stated as the "Battery Charging" itself. However, this can be a very dangerous procedure. Electrons are produced through the dissociation of the H atoms within the elctrolytic solution. Thus creating a ticking time bomb!

Just a thought, working out the method of measuring the output of this process might lead to you getting your name in all the physics text books. A worthy endeavour indeed!1

Cheers

Dwane

[shylo]

Hi Dwane,
" Thus creating a ticking time bomb!" If you put a cap bank parallel to the battery with a blocking diode , and draw the pulses from the caps, would the battery still be a hazard?

Hi Dave, interesting I never heard of this before , The funny thing is I was doing tests similar to this , interupting the battery supply.

Now I decided to do the short bursts of draw from caps only that are being charged with the rotor the burst are driving.
I like your style just build it.
Thanks artv

[Dwane]

Problematic Pulsing

Hi Dwane,
" Thus creating a ticking time bomb!" If you put a cap bank parallel to the battery with a blocking diode , and draw the pulses from the caps, would the battery still be a hazard?
Thanks artv

Hi Shylo,
I personally have not done too much "Battery Pulsing". Although I think I know how the chemistry of the Pulse Syndrome of Tom Beardon is supposed to work, I have always been very cautious when using batteries. Its not as if they will call your mobile with a cautionary reminder to slow down. I do not think the caps in parallel will be an adequate solution if you intend to deliberately design a circuit with the load emanating from excess current from a pulsed battery. You would need more that you would be able to calculate. The issue from my experiences are several fold. 1) I have an electrolytic capacitor used for storing flyback pulses before decoupling into a battery. Something has happened to this capacitor as it will self charge up to 90+ volts when discharged and left for a short period of time. If I send pulses to this capacitor the voltage increases faster than I can send the decoupling via a relay back to the battery. Which means I am constantly supplying an over voltage to the battery. The reason I use relays to decouple is I find constantly replacing semi-conductor to be expensive. I seem to get a lot of failures!

High frequency and higher than recommended charging voltage together will create a spontaneous resonance at some point. Resonance implies efficiency. Therefore, lots of hydrogen production and of course electrons. What is not clear to me is the constant recovery that precedes battery breakdown. That is, as electrons and ions have different mobility there has to be periods of electrolytic equalisation else the electrolyte will become perished in some fashion. This would also imply that some hydrogen would convert back into the electrolyte.

The real problem for a surfeit of hydrogen is any casual spark that think its party time on the bench work top!! We would be dealing with monotonic hydrogen within the battery, this is H1, and is probably the most volatile medium in the universe. It looks for trouble and is always looking to co habit with other structures. In the air it is possible for it to self ignite given any sort of electrostatic environment.

That being said, how many people admit to having exploding batteries? You could invest in steel boxes!!

Cheers

Dwane

"The most abundant element in the universe is Hydrogen, the next most abundant element is stupidity"

[Turion]

I have read a lot about Beardon's "battery popping" theories and about what John Bedini has done along the same lines. I am approaching this from a different direction for a very specific reason, and have NO intention of hitting the batteries with a pulse.

I have been working with the 3BGS setup for a number of years now, and with results running the gamut from ZERO results to having setups work for weeks at a time with no drain on the primary batteries. ALL of these setups have included a DC pulse motor which acts as its own switch, connecting and disconnecting to the batteries as it rotates. The greatest successes have come with large loads on battery 3, which anyone who has worked with this system will tell you causes the motor to speed up and the switching times to speed up. The more I thought about this, the more I have wondered what would happen when I SIGNIFICANTLY speed up the switching times.

I am simply connecting as quickly as possible and disconnecting as quickly as possible to 8 batteries sequentially. Working with adjusting the on and off times to get a 50% duty cycle on the motor, and give the batteries time to rest between connections. I have a heavy duty rolling table that I wheel out into my driveway, so if a battery explodes, I don't take out my garage. I can monitor the batteries with meters in case something strange occurs, but mostly I want to see what will happen with the fastest switching I can come up with.

Dave

[Dwane]

Battery Pulsing

Hi Dave,
No criticism intended. If you are familiar with JB's history on battery pulsing you might be aware of the battery tapping by drivers of earth moving equipment on cold mornings. The intention, I think, was to generate a pulse inside the battery to assist with stimulating the battery to assist starting. Therefore one strike/pulse = one battery pop!

The other thing is this. I have personally seen what happens when experimenting with hydrogen and where the experimental set up ends up in pieces around the workshop. It becomes a wake up call. Also, there is a tendency to move forward with our experiments and we can get more confident of our results. Always striving to get the proof we are looking for. I wrote my caution only to help you and anyone else who is pulsing batteries to focus on safety.

Good luck with your experimenting.

Cheers

Dwane

[Turion]

Dwane,
Thanks for the words of caution. i appreciate it it. You can NEVER be too safe!

[Matthew Jones]

I've been hitting batteries with pulses of high Voltage and or amperage for years. I have never seen hydrogen to be problem.

I have done it for the sole purpose of charging. I have done it while loads are running. I have done it just to see how much power can be absorbed by one given pulse or many pulses.

In fact I have monitored hydrogen production during battery charging and worked with an engineer calculating expected fluid losses from conventional charging of batteries and pulsed charging of batteries.

I have also watched batteries charge and discharge at extremely high rates for months at a time while being monitored for hydrogen out gassing.

I have still never seen a battery blow up from any kinda activity resembling this "Back Popping"

Each to his own if you wanna be scared or overly cautious, but its pure bull$hit your going to make excessive hydrogen from pulsing a battery. But pure Bull$hit fits in on this forum...

I don't understand posting anything here. Wheres the help in that?

Cheers
Matt

[BroMikey]

Dwane,
Thanks for the words of caution. i appreciate it it. You can NEVER be too safe!

Hey Turion

Good to hear from folks who are working on practical experimental
projects. You guys have my attention. But one thing I should say.
As you know I am a cap dump builder. Over the years I had heard
about this battery popping of course talked about by John Bedini
himself.

Then everyone chimes in with the HINDENBURG explosion so naturally
I wanted to be careful. Well you are not making pulses big enough to
scare the battery, I don't think. I found this out when I started trying
to pop my batteries and couldn't do it.

Then I realized something. John said "Battery Popping" not
"Battery disaster" so one day I finally did pop one of my batteries.

I mean to tell you I hit this battery and I hit this battery and she
wouldn't go up, so I just kept hitting it some more. Then it happened.

What had happened was I had a bad battery plate somewhere and
I was aware that these old batteries might not be recovered.


It would not go up and I kept hitting it. A 35ah deep cycle made for
small MARTKARTS. The battery stayed on all day and I was hitting it
with everything I could throw at it, it was getting hot and boiling
away the fluid inside, but that didn't stop me, I went and got more
caps and slowed down the rate of discharge.

I hit that battery even harder, finally it did pop back on me and here is
what it looked like. Some of the plastic tops were ajar and had pushed
the hold down plates off of the top.

This left me with a hot battery that was low on ALUM and 3 or 4 tops
jerked loose but still on the battery. It was an intentional experiment.

Now before I couldn't do this wit a perfectly good battery, it took a
bad battery to get a Kick back or Pop Back of any kind.

And since this is the goal quite often, to recover old batteries it is
good to warn people that batteries boiling hot that won't climb in
voltage should be pitched in the can.

Not because they are all that dangerous but rather a waste of
efficiency.

I think I am liking many pulses that are smaller because they are
better for batteries, but when I get one that is a pain in the you
know where, I beat it til it makes or breaks with one of my bigger
pulse hammers.

How are things going on your expensive setup?

[Turion]

BroMikey,

I have to tell you, I look around my shop,and I have TOO MANY projects going for the hours in a day I have to work on them.

I have to wind the motor/generator combination that Matt has come up with which he is eventually going to release here on the forum. I need to get caught up with him on THAT. I have been putting it off because I HATE WINDING coils!!!

I have a 3d printer half assembled that I need to get put together.

I have Steele Braden's electrostatic generator that I already KNOW works because I built a smaller version that "walked" out of my shop when my son, the electrical engineer, was here visiting, which I recently saw running on his bench when I visited Arizona. All the parts are done and I just need to assemble it. It is taking up four feet of space on one of my benches because it is a BIG sucker.

The other half of that bench is filled with batteries and four or five razor scooter motors and voltage boosters which I have been working with to see what can be accomplished using the 3BGS circuit with some interesting results.

I have a small pulse motor turning a rotor with six 2" diameter neos through the U shapes of 8 of those washing machine pump motor coils that I need to finish bolting together and get hooked up to see what it does. I shot the attached video basically to show that to a buddy.

I have Matt's two cap pulser to put together now that I actually have some big 4 farad caps that will work.

I have my big generator that I have spent a LOT of time and money on to get working that I am STILL testing coils and core materials on, which means more testing has to be done before I bolt it back together. It is disassembled on ANOTHER bench.

I have the permanent magnet motor replication that I have been working on that was sitting on top my table saw just waiting for me to work on it, but I haven't touched it in weeks because I have been gone or too busy with other things, so it is sitting on the floor in the corner.

I also have all the parts machined for a four foot Bessler Wheel that I would like to put together, which looks good on paper, but which takes up too much space to assemble until I get a bunch of empty boxes that are piled up in my garage out to the recycle place.

I still have a circuit from David E that I need to get up and running and all the parts for it are sitting on my bench in a box. He's probably given up on me by now, but I haven't forgotten. It's all there under all the other crap that is piled all over my bench.

I have a rolling cart covered with big 6 volt brand new golf cart batteries to use in a Benitez setup if I can ever find the time. The big transformer for it is already wound, and I have the rest of the parts for it in a drawer. I got the three small ones working at different times with Matt's help as proof of concept, but haven't put the big one together.

I know this all sounds like I am blowing smoke, but here is a video I shot last night for a buddy who wanted to see the pump motor setup, and I did a whole video of my shop because all these projects are my only excuse for not having ANY ONE of them finished. That plus all the crap that has been going on in my personal life. I was NEVER this busy before I retired!! Oh, and if you watch the video, I DO know the difference between a desk top computer and a laptop. I just bought a rebuilt desktop to put out in my garage to use with some of my experiments on pulsing batteries and I called it a laptop in the video.

Dave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLTXjS5VtwQ

[Dwane]

I've been hitting batteries with pulses of high Voltage and or amperage for years. I have never seen hydrogen to be problem.

I have done it for the sole purpose of charging. I have done it while loads are running. I have done it just to see how much power can be absorbed by one given pulse or many pulses.

In fact I have monitored hydrogen production during battery charging and worked with an engineer calculating expected fluid losses from conventional charging of batteries and pulsed charging of batteries.

I have also watched batteries charge and discharge at extremely high rates for months at a time while being monitored for hydrogen out gassing.

I have still never seen a battery blow up from any kinda activity resembling this "Back Popping"

Each to his own if you wanna be scared or overly cautious, but its pure bull$hit your going to make excessive hydrogen from pulsing a battery. But pure Bull$hit fits in on this forum...

I don't understand posting anything here. Wheres the help in that?

Cheers
Matt

Thanks for your words of wisdom. Each to his own. It is not helpful condemning others for their beliefs or being a "jack the lad" know all. Just because you have not experienced any blow backs yet does not mean they do not occur.

Oh and about your comments, you might like to try thinking about other people who are not the genius that you are. Your flippant and arrogant approach to a subject that you are so obviously an expert would suggest that when people such as John Bedini and Peter Lindemann urge caution with battery pulsing they too are nambi pambi woozers?

You are a dangerous person. "I don't understand posting anything here. Wheres the help in that?"

Cheers

Dwane

" The most abundant element in the universe is Hydrogen the second most abundantm element is stupidity"