Your Basic Coil

[Turion]

???

I'm trying to understand why you think drawing less amps is a bad thing? I have seen speed up under load WITH lower amp draw so I know it is possible. Is there a reason I don't understand why I should WANT greater amp draw? I have an open mind to almost anything, and I am trying to understand, but you make statements like that with no explanation, and it is hard for me to understand. You may not particularly CARE whether I understand or not, but I thought we were all in this together.

I saw where you stated "In such a system, consumption must increase. The increase results in a stronger motor, higher generator action, higher recovery, higher self and when applicable, mutual induction." so I understand you believe there are positives, but I have not seen that with the systems I have built EXCEPT with the 3BGS, where a load across the battery was balanced with the load on the motor. It increased the motor speed and therefore the generating power.

To edit this, let me say I don't care if the motor speeds up, slows down, increases amp draw or the amp draw goes down. What I want is the MOST efficient production of usable power possible. If the amps go UP but the power production ALSO goes up, then that can be a good thing. It can also be a BAD thing if the power production did not go up enough in relation to the increase in power consumption.
Dave

[barbosi]

Is there a reason I don't understand why I should WANT greater amp draw?

If you were a farmer you would understand the capitalist version from "you have two cows" joke series:

You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

And if you want increased milk production you would feed both animals more. All you would have to do is to work more to ensure you have enough for the cold season too.



Or if you prefer a different approach - more scientific one, you could talk to specialists and here is what you would need:

Milk production at a dairy farm was low, so the farmer wrote to the local university, asking for help from academia. A multidisciplinary team of professors was assembled, headed by a theoretical physicist, and two weeks of intensive on-site investigation took place. The scholars then returned to the university, notebooks crammed with data, where the task of writing the report was left to the team leader. Shortly thereafter the physicist returned to the farm, saying to the farmer, "I have the solution, but it only works in the case of spherical cows in a vacuum".

[Turion]

You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

And if the bull is in the field and the cow is in the barn all you end up with is twice the cow poop and two frustrated animals.

To just say we need bigger amp draw to get a positive result without explaining to people HOW to use that amp draw to get bigger results, you're gonna end up with the exact same pile of poop. Oh AND frustrated animals.

Dave

[Turion]

Poop theory

The more of the right kinds of foods you eat, the less you poop.

Americans eat so much of the bad kinds of food, we have a poop problem. If we keep increasing the population and eating the wrong kinds of foods, poop will take over the world. Mark my words. Eventually we will have poop free zones. Probably a poop tax. They tax everything else! Oh Poop! I shouldn't have said that! I probably just gave them the idea!

Dave

[Dog-One]

Quote from JLN labs: When the LOAD IS CONNECTED the RPM speed is DOUBLED and the INPUT POWER DROPS dramatically.

In that statement is your answer. Seems to me the device has achieved a point in which it is powering itself. Why else would input power drop...?

Recall Jim Murray talking about how motors are also generators; generators are also motors.

Hmmm, so if internally the generator portion of the device begins to produce more power, then the motor gets more power to motor with. If this situation isn't governed, the device RPM will continue to increase until it grenades itself. That's a problem I wouldn't mind having. But what we see in most devices is for some reason they govern themselves--shaft speed stabilizes as well as input power. Back to the generator portion becoming a motor and the motor portion becoming a generator. That's not what we are after. We need each section of the device to remain only doing its needed task and not switching roles like when a load is applied or shaft speed changes. This is were geometry becomes key.

[Turion]

Circuit

Or we need very fast switching and the right timing.

[mbrownn]

Calm down guys and Ill tell you how i did it the first time. but first you have to stop thinking about it being a motor. Think of it as a transformer.

I took two of the field winding's and shoes out of a 4 pole universal type motor, leaving just two set at 90 degrees from each other.

The armature was standard but i did relocate the brushes making the armature run on only two of the brushes. These brushes were set at 180 degrees from each other.

I wired the motor so that the armature and field coil were in attraction, theoretically the motor should not turn but it did. So why is this?

The magnetic field created by the armature and powered field coil returned through the shoe mounted at 90 degrees to the powered field coil. This causes the flux to be bent sharply around the armature winding thus pushing this winding towards the powered field coil.

As the motor turns, little or no BEMF is generated in the powered field coil; however a significant EMF is generated in the unpowered field coil. This is the same no matter if the motor is powered with DC or AC. The DC operation i have posted in this thread http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...eresting+motor

If we use pulsed DC or AC as the supply we have a varying magnetic field created in the powered field coil and the armature. As these winding's are set up in attraction, they act as a single primary winding of a transformer. The winding on the other shoe set at 90 degrees, acts not only as a generator winding but as the secondary of a transformer.

Just as in a transformer, when you place a load on the secondary winding, the inductance of the primary lowers and allows more current to flow. As more current flows a greater magnitude of field is created and the motor speeds up.

This results in greater generation and greater induction (transformer action)

The lowering of the inductance allows the greater current and the greater current causes an increased speed. Its that simple. Acceleration under load thus caused more current to be drawn.

To reduce the current drawn while maintaining or increasing the current in the powered field coil and armature requires that the output of the generator coil is passed through the motor windings, but there are phase issues to be sorted here, Its a work in progress. Also think trifilar coil in the Lockridge device.

Any questions

[barbosi]

Acceleration under the load

IF this is all you are looking for....heaven help you, acceleration under load is not the solution, not even close. The effect is a teaching instrument, you are supposed to be learning something, to find out what that is, I recommend you stop copying and pasting and start formulating and asking the proper questions.

So the issue of acceleration under the load has been demonstrated as real. Naudin was replicated by others and shown on youtube. After that, no progress followed.

Erfinder has demonstrated another method and my guess here is that what he really wanted was to brake the spellbound of this wish.

First thing that struck me was that regardless the method used, after the acceleration the rotor stabilized after the acceleration. While many will say "pffff yeah, hello..ooo, that's normal", to me is the proof that we only changed the parameters of where Lenz law operates.

My feeling is that Erfinder tried to warn us that we are mesmerized like the deers at night in front of the headlights.

And yet we are b!tching about who saw a better contestant at a pissing contest.
Or even better suggesting:

Or we need very fast switching and the right timing.

Like we really stand a chance with slow switching at the wrong time.

Erfinder invited to ask serious questions and in return he gets silly solutions.
Seriously? I'm out!

[mbrownn]

Read my post,

A lot of the videos i have seen could be a simple transformer action. Shorting a secondary allows current to flow in it thus lowering the inductance of the primary. What tells you this is happening is an increase in current draw.

[mbrownn]

Acceleration under load tells you that you have transformer actions taking place in my case. If there is something going on with lenz on other peoples work i would like to see and understand it.

I could have made claims about lenz or other things which people would have bought because they want to, but for me its a simple transformer action taking place.

There is more to this but i will wait to see if anyone asks the question.

[Dog-One]

There is more to this but i will wait to see if anyone asks the question.

Transformer action is a good expression of this phenomena--works for me.

Phasing issues I totally get as do I understand Lenz. To me this is nothing more than the motoring action or rotational force going the wrong way at some point in the rotation. My feeling is this can be overcome because we have a terrific little device that will oppose the flow of current for a deterministic amount of time--an inductor. With the proper delay added, it should be quite possible to adjust when the motor needs to push and when it needs to freewheel. My thinking here is this inductor needs to be dynamic, because as the RPM increases, so does the frequency, consequently the delay needed shortens. But while we are introducing a delay, we can certainly store some energy in a capacitor until it is time to be released.

Kind of thinking out loud here, so jump in and steer this boat a little.

[Cornboy 555]

What's with you people and poop....

Well Erfinder, if you don't **** you die, but there is a balance between, the right food substances, and defecating to your most perfect metabolism, just don't drag it along on your own till you expire.

Warmest regards Cornboy.

[mbrownn]

And the man with a mind of his own understands! He does not ask for the answer to be shoved by the spoon full down his throat, he thinks for himself.

Mike, you are on its heals boss. However, if I may make a suggestion, do not limit this to simple transformer action, its not. Understand how self-induction and mutual induction (from a layman perspective) are the mediators of the effects we desire.

The 90° relation is the corner stone of all of our efforts. The fathers of science whose names are associated with the laws which govern how we perceive the forces operating in the devices we build, also govern our thoughts (some anyway). These individuals presented us with a challenge, they gave us a 90° relation which is leads to no where, but at the same time suggested that the same relation was our salvation.

I generally don't agree with anyone's methods, as I feel most make things more complex than they need to be, or I feel the presenter fails to appreciate the symbiotic relation that motoring and generating have with one another. Mike, in your case, you require two poles to establish the same conditions that I establish in one. You also have a magnetic circuit which I "intentionally" left out of my system so as to illustrate that it is not required for generating the desired effect. You are the first outside of my little circle of two or three to comprehend the value of transformer action amplified via parameter variation. Unfortunately you still aren't seeing it as you could, if you were your design would be radically different than it is now. I do appreciate that you are building a very special device, one which has had to be built from scratch. I sincerely applaud your effort.

Turion,

I only mention this because Mike used the right terms, he provided you with the triad....

• 90° shift
• transformer action (as it applies to self and mutual induction)
• parameter variation

Had he not mentioned these three, I wouldn't have made this post.

Transformer action through self and when applicable mutual induction, allow you to profit from consumption increase. The concepts being discussed are not designed so as to take advantage of transformer action. This includes the device that I presented! The purpose of my demonstration was to familiarize you with "the" simplest phase shift mechanism I have yet to encounter. Phase shifting is what acceleration under load is about. The sooner you all recognize that the better. If and when you do, you will be brought face to face with the harsh reality that, although there are many ways to use a toilet brush, only one way is, and I am certain you will agree, "the" way to use it.





Instead of seeing what I brought to the table for what it is, you engage in unnecessary comparisons....(unnecessary from my perspective....). Instead of you being open like you say you are, you tighten your grip on your acceleration under load successes and failures, and begin b*****ing at me because I can't convince you of the significance of my stance on the significance of consumption increase. One, consumption increase doesn't apply to "your" generation concept, and two, I am not here to convince you.

In my presentation I reveal the simplest means I have yet to encounter for producing the desired 90° shift. I date the effect back to the man who is an inspiration to all of us. Instead of it being seen for what it is, its played down, made secondary to what I feel justified in calling mediocre attempts.

People want you to spell s**t out for them, and that's not right. We must come to the same or similar conclusions via our own efforts, and not through coercion.

I don't want you to let go of your hopes and dreams of acceleration, I want you to see that you are trading one way of getting stuck for another. It's clear that your machines only accelerate up to a new plateau right? You think that's a good thing? If so, stay there!

Me personally, I want the machine to tear itself apart when the phase shift takes place, and the supply to burn to the ground as the device demands more and more current as the device accelerates towards self destruction. What makes this possible? Phase shifting from parallel to series resonance.

Acceleration under load as you people contemplate and discuss it is a dead end, and you know it, but for whatever reason, you have chosen to captain that sinking ship. To each his own.


Regards

Thanks for the kind words. Like I said before its over 2 years since we were having this conversation, maybe 3.

There is a lot more going on in my device than this simple action, much of which I dont fully understand yet, but some I do.

The acceleration under load is not the goal in itself, but occurs when you have the parts doing the right thing. It costs more current so isnt a gain but it does self compensate by giving more generation to some extent and isnt a loss either.

Yes I have effectively 2 poles and a closed magnetic circuit but that is to maximize these transformer actions, It may also solve the phasing issues i have, Remember when you suggested the Magamp

As usual the terms you use leave me behind so I will have to study some more to get there.

Another researcher who has been replicating what I did and also trying his own ideas worries about the huge currents that we have, It does try to tear itself apart This is because we dont have any controls on it as yet. Whats the controls? pulses, on time and off time as well as frequency, and its self regulating with no electronics.

I suspect as usual I am heading in a different direction to yourself, but i do get tunnel vision I love the toilet brush analogy

[Cornboy 555]

And the man with a mind of his own understands! He does not ask for the answer to be shoved by the spoon full down his throat, he thinks for himself.

Mike, you are on its heals boss. However, if I may make a suggestion, do not limit this to simple transformer action, its not. Understand how self-induction and mutual induction (from a layman perspective) are the mediators of the effects we desire.

The 90° relation is the corner stone of all of our efforts. The fathers of science whose names are associated with the laws which govern how we perceive the forces operating in the devices we build, also govern our thoughts (some anyway). These individuals presented us with a challenge, they gave us a 90° relation which is leads to no where, but at the same time suggested that the same relation was our salvation.

I generally don't agree with anyone's methods, as I feel most make things more complex than they need to be, or I feel the presenter fails to appreciate the symbiotic relation that motoring and generating have with one another. Mike, in your case, you require two poles to establish the same conditions that I establish in one. You also have a magnetic circuit which I "intentionally" left out of my system so as to illustrate that it is not required for generating the desired effect. You are the first outside of my little circle of two or three to comprehend the value of transformer action amplified via parameter variation. Unfortunately you still aren't seeing it as you could, if you were your design would be radically different than it is now. I do appreciate that you are building a very special device, one which has had to be built from scratch. I sincerely applaud your effort.

Turion,

I only mention this because Mike used the right terms, he provided you with the triad....

• 90° shift
• transformer action (as it applies to self and mutual induction)
• parameter variation

Had he not mentioned these three, I wouldn't have made this post.

Transformer action through self and when applicable mutual induction, allow you to profit from consumption increase. The concepts being discussed are not designed so as to take advantage of transformer action. This includes the device that I presented! The purpose of my demonstration was to familiarize you with "the" simplest phase shift mechanism I have yet to encounter. Phase shifting is what acceleration under load is about. The sooner you all recognize that the better. If and when you do, you will be brought face to face with the harsh reality that, although there are many ways to use a toilet brush, only one way is, and I am certain you will agree, "the" way to use it.





Instead of seeing what I brought to the table for what it is, you engage in unnecessary comparisons....(unnecessary from my perspective....). Instead of you being open like you say you are, you tighten your grip on your acceleration under load successes and failures, and begin b*****ing at me because I can't convince you of the significance of my stance on the significance of consumption increase. One, consumption increase doesn't apply to "your" generation concept, and two, I am not here to convince you.

In my presentation I reveal the simplest means I have yet to encounter for producing the desired 90° shift. I date the effect back to the man who is an inspiration to all of us. Instead of it being seen for what it is, its played down, made secondary to what I feel justified in calling mediocre attempts.

People want you to spell s**t out for them, and that's not right. We must come to the same or similar conclusions via our own efforts, and not through coercion.

I don't want you to let go of your hopes and dreams of acceleration, I want you to see that you are trading one way of getting stuck for another. It's clear that your machines only accelerate up to a new plateau right? You think that's a good thing? If so, stay there!

Me personally, I want the machine to tear itself apart when the phase shift takes place, and the supply to burn to the ground as the device demands more and more current as the device accelerates towards self destruction. What makes this possible? Phase shifting from parallel to series resonance.

Acceleration under load as you people contemplate and discuss it is a dead end, and you know it, but for whatever reason, you have chosen to captain that sinking ship. To each his own.


Regards

Opps, Erfinder, i posted without reading the latest post from you, sorry, my excuse is beautiful red grapes fermented.

Heaps of current IN, and extremes of current out, is very awesome.

Best regards Cornboy.

[Cornboy 555]

At this point it is simply about recognizing that "the ideal generator" is one with it's prime mover. Today we call them motors, that is not what they are.

Current flowing in the generator in such a system produces conditions which can be reflected back to the prime mover. There are two ways to see this, the returning wave can cancel the input, this is what most want for obvious reasons, unfortunately the gain is zero, OR the returning wave can augment the applied, this is what I want, augmentation. The immediate benefit to augmentation is amplification of recovery. The present belief is that recovery is dictated by specific coil parameters. This is true, however, only under those circumstances where the induced is both lower than, and operating in opposition to the applied. This means recovery is in reality governed by the induced.

To increase the efficiency beyond the limits established by our limited perspective, we need to simply invert the CEMF, once inverted raise it!

Most reading this might see it as a tangent....that would be a mistake.


Regards

Thanks Erfinder, for such a non confronting reply, please show by diagram, or circuit diagram, what you refer to?.

Please let's invert the CEMF, through you're instructions, and raise it to the Max.


I and many others here,i am sure, feel you have a huge amount to give freely, and share, please do so.

I for 1, will replicate and verify.

Warmest Regards Cornboy.