Your Basic Coil

[Turion]

I thought I would start this thread because I believe there are folks out there who may have insight, knowledge or experience they could share with the rest of us to get us to where we want to be. I am not a particularly intelligent individual when it comes to electronics. I am just stubborn as hell and will butt my head against a wall until I find a way through it. But I have figured out a few things, borrowed a few things from others, and spent a lot of time and money researching this stuff. There are things I know how to do, but do not yet understand the WHY of it, and that bothers me.

Let me put before you a premise, and let's go from there. What if you had a home made generator with magnets on the rotor and iron cores in the coils, and there was no magnetic attraction between the iron cores and the magnets on the rotors, so your rotor would basically freewheel when spun by hand, but you STILL got to take advantage of the induced field from the magnets in the wire wrapped around the core of the coil. Would that be of some value?
Now what if you could then add a load to that generator and it caused the motor running it to speed up, drawing fewer amps. Would THAT be of even greater benefit to you?

Step #1 I can show you how to do. In fact, I've made sure that understanding how to do this does not vanish from the face of the earth if something happens to me, but I'm not sharing it yet because....Matt is building a prototype right now that he is sending me so I can get the coils wound. I built a small two coil model, and it worked, so we are putting something together we can share with others. When it is done, when we have tested it, when we KNOW it works, then you'll see it here.

So now, let's talk about coils speeding up under load. I have seen coils speed up under load. I have seen it with air core coils and with solid core coils. I have seen it with "regular cores" made out of welding rod, and with U shaped coils. What do all these coils that speed up under load have in common??? Come on, you can tell me, right? Can't you make EVERY coil speed up under load?

Matt built a two coil prototype motor with iron cores and high impedance coils and it sped up under load. Citfta ran a rotor through the pump motor coils and got them to BARELY speed up under load, and I ran my rotor but could NOT get them to speed up under load. Why? Same coil, but different rotors at different speeds with different magnets. Angus Wangus shows U shaped coils (like the pump motor coils) speeding up under load. BIG time. I replicated his experiment and mine worked like a charm with a U shaped piece of iron rod, so I thought the pump motor coils would be a natural. They are the right shape, and already wound. No joy so far.

So my question is folks, what EXACTLY do we know about how to get a coil to speed up under load? Is it the resistance? Is it impedance (Thaine Heinz says so, and I have seen it work with high impedance coils, but also with coils that are NOT high impedance.) Is it the size of the magnets? The number of magnets per second (or some ratio like that) If we KNOW the answer, then we should be able to make EVERY coil we build speed up under load. What IS the magic formula? I have four different coils that will speed up under load right now, and I need to set my test stand back up to start gathering some data. I hope I don't have to do it alone, because I will, but it would be nice if ALL of us benefited from this information. We're all in this together, right?

Dave

[blackchisel97]

This is how I believe it works:
in mechanical set up (rotor-coils) we are dealing with two systems. One consisting of rotor with magnets and second, our coil(s).
When we look at the rotor, we have couple variables which are responsible for it's performance - rotor diameter, magnet size and their number.(possibly their spacing but it may not be critical)
Each time single magnet passes the coil can be counted as one pulse per revolution.
When rotor rotates with constant speed there is also a constant number of magnets per coil per unit of time, either minutes or seconds. This would be the rotor frequency.
Now, if we look at single coil, we have RLC cicuit where are also variables, such as wire size, it's length ( resistance), number of turns, coil dimensions (length vs diameter, core type and diameter and way in which coil is wound - single/bifilar/multifilar.
This circuit will have it's own resonant frequency which will change if we change any of the variables. Higher inductance will likely resonate lower than low inductance. Also, coil capacitance can be adjusted by different winding configuration (single vs bifilar).
What I think is happening when rotor speeds up is that both are close to resonance or perhaps rotor is close to a subharmonic of a coil. Adding coils and connecting them together can actually bring both resonances in pare and that's when we hit the jackpot.
The reason that different people observe such effect at various speeds are caused by different build parameters - rotors, magnets, wire and coil types.
Smaller rotors with few magnets will have to go close to supersonic speed to reach
small coil frequency (or subharmonic). Large rotors can go much smaller but coils have to have relatively low frequencies - larger or higher internal capacitance.
Summarizing, we have two resonant circuits (systems) which have to be matched.

I welcome to be corrected at any point but this is the way I see it and can understand.

V

[Turion]

Agreed

I have to say I agree with you. The question is, how do we go about collecting the information (or do some of us have it already) to put something together so we know that with a rotor of x size and with x number of magnets of x size we have to turn the rotor at x rpm to speed up under load when we have x turns of x sized wire.

Look at the sheer number of variables in that statement and realize that they ALL have to be correct to get what we are looking for. Is it any wonder that not EVERYONE who messes with this has put together the conditions to get speed up under load???

[Bob Smith]

For what it's worth guys - something I posted on TheMinoly's thread, in which Erfinder was posting as well, here's the link:
http://www.energeticforum.com/284268-post167.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfinder View Post
Most experiment with solid state systems, I decided long ago that I could learn more about the nature of the field by exploring motors and generators.

We are informed of what inductance is, how it relates to frequency, how it's not constant, varying with frequency, reluctance, and saturation. We are informed of how it relates to the number of turns in a conductor, and current operating in that conductor. No such relation is mentioned regarding capacitance. I find that strange. The only capacitance we are informed of is the distributed capacity. The distributed capacity is an artifact born out of geometry. The value is orders lower than the actual capacity of the coil. I found the capacity, its all about perspective, it was there the entire time, we cannot see it for reasons too numerous for mentioning. Finding it means reevaluating everything. After you recognize it, you recognize that the manner in which we generate today is in a word.....wrong.

We have identified where the seat of inductance is from a geometric stand point, and done so in a totally non scientific manner, now we need to find the seat of capacity, and experience for yourselves how the two are not in phase, and as such, will never give us what we are all after....namely....

the key to conversion. What I mean here is the systems as they are only generate reactive power because the system by design is setup to produce reactive power......

Regards

FWIW, something I just posted on OLS' thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Smith View Post
Not sure if this will help - from Scherz & Monk's Practical Electronics for Inventors, Third Edition, p. 154. There's actually a mistake in the text on this page, I think (due to two contradictory statements about inductance, capacitance and frequency), but I'll go with the one that lines up with what the page's graphics illustrate:

Quote:
"When a voltage changes due to ac current passing through a coil, the effect is that of many small capacitors acting in parallel with the inductance of the coil."...

"Inductors exhibit distributed capacitance... Below resonance, the reactance is inductive... Above resonance, the reactance is capacitive and increases with frequency."

In other words, at self-resonant frequency, the coil's impedance is at its highest. As frequency increases above that of self-resonance, the impedance of an inductor drops, and its capacitance rises.
Bob

If anyone has the book, Practical Electronics for Inventors, they can check this out for themselves. There's a nice graph that goes with it as well, p. 154. But the way I understand it, and I think this might be what Blackchisel is referring to, once you get above resonance (with either faster rotor speed or more magnets in rotor), your impedance drops off very quickly.
FWIW
Bob

[Turion]

Information

I read that when erfinder posted it as well as your response. I was interested then and am interested now. I wish erfinder would give us the steak instead of the table scraps, so that we could possibly understand where he is coming from. Perhaps some day that will happen. "Where's the beef?!" LOL. We will get there eventually and I appreciate your contribution.

Dave

[blackchisel97]

I used the wrong terms to describe what I'm really thinking. Time constant is not correct.

As far as self-resonant frequency of coils go, I think we may be stretching a bit. A low inductance coil is going to be way up the megahertz scale. I'm not sure you can get meaningful effects from super low subharmonics..

Hi Orion,

I just measured one of my small coils to verify.
It is bifilar 400 T of 0.4mm (0.016in) measuring 35mm x 35mm (1.38in) with 10.34mm (0.4in) ferrite core. It shows first resonance at 148kHz for single strand but wait, when connected in reversed series resonance dropped down to 20kHz and this is only bifilar coil, not tri or multifilar.This may be just one way of increasing coil capacitance thus, lowering frequency.
Rotor spinning at 1800 RPM has frequency of 30Hz but that's for single pulse, once per rotation. Multiplied by 6 magnets will give us 180Hz but again, this is for one coil stator.

Perhaps I over complicated or over simplified as there might be other factors.
I'm trying to build second rotor setup and test something so I won't mislead others with my thoughts.

V

[alman]

...
What I was thinking can easily be viewed by looking at the reflection rule of a coaxial transmission line. If the end is open then you have the wave reflected. If the end is closed, you get the same reflection but the wave is inverted. Technically it is a matter of the reactive impedance being higher or lower than the dc resistance and I don't think it matters whether or not the reactive impedance is capacitive or inductive.

therefore, you need only insure that the output impedance of the coil is severely mismatched with the rest of the circuit and you will get that reflected wave.

So, at the right rpm, the reflected wave could boost the rpm/lower current draw, yes?...

A coil can resonate a multiple frequencies can't it?
It appears to me one of the common threads used by many to stimulate "free energy" whether it is speeding up a rotor under load and decreasing amp draw, or extracting usable energy (capacitive or magnetic or both) is introducing a counter force like voltage or current like in the 3BGS/splitting the positive or bucking coils. In John Bedini's splitting the positive his counter force is just under 1/2 of the force in position 1 with the dead battery being in battery 3 spot. We see this reationship 2:1 in some of the bucking coil arrangments as well (POC etc.). The mismatch shows up in Bedini's bifilar ssg coil (different gauges of wire) as well. To illicit a "cold form" of electricity one needs to force out surges of voltage through abrupt switching into high impedance load or surges of current between negatives in low impedance load. just thoughts as well, not over the top yet either. Running solid state ssg's between the positives right now, been using rotored ones for years and have been missing out. Why rotor unless you are going to generate too! No lenz acceleration under load is needed to make the rotored machines come alive. Al

[shylo]

does an open coil with no core ,not connected to anything cause drag (create lenz)?
My test's say no.
If you put diodes on the leads of the coil and put a cap on the other ends of the diodes, this collects the back spike, which is lenz, drain lenz 'store it in the cap and then use it.
If at 100 rpm an arbitrary # , the coil produces say 2 volts, with a bridge connected and a cap connected to the bridge, at 100 rpm that cap will stay at 2 volts , there will be lenz until the cap reaches 2 volts , but after that lenz disappears.
After the initial bridge and cap are charged , don't drain it, the additional caps via the other diodes can be drained without lenz showing up since the bridge and cap stay fully charged , use the flyback only.
artv

[barbosi]

Now what?

[blackchisel97]

In the link you will find a vague video demonstration of the effect you all want, acceleration under load. [U][COLOR="Red"]This time around, I show you that it can be done using one low resistance, low inductance coil operating at low frequency.

Hi erfinder,

I believe the same effect would be present with magnet passing in between two coils except, the second one should be opposite polarity.
Also, same effect would manifest with single coil connected right and two rotors with opposing magnetic pairs. Am I correct?

Thanks
V

[shylo]

I think using a rotor with opposite poles oriented is a mistake.
The rotor should be all the same pole.
When a magnet approaches a coil it induces a pole into that coil, when the magnet hits TDC the pole reverses, now the coil is trying to pull the passing magnet back , but if the next approaching magnet is of the same polarity ,it will draw it in.
Thats the sweet spot.
During the whole process a backspike is produced ,collect that and use it also.It doesn't seem to cause any extra load.
Coil shorting can add even more. I haven't got there yet.
Just gotta figure out how to put them altogether.
artv

[mbrownn]

I am looking for a serious audiance. I desire to exchange with serious researchers. Instead I am attacked when I just post text.....when I post a video..... crickets..... Don't throw demands in my direction. I don't owe anyone anything, and will present information when I feel like it and not a second sooner. There are one or two among you who can kiss my ass, seriously! Those folk please refrain from mentioning my name in your posts, don't give me props, don't ask for my assistance, we aren't friends!

I don't like being told that my machines don't do what I say they do, the few who have made false statements are ignorant f***s, there is no cure! My machines were designed for a very specific purpose, and perform exactly as I say they should. Demonstrations of what they can do aside from generating squared waves and oscillations will follow in the future....maybe....

In the link you will find a vague video demonstration of the effect you all want, acceleration under load. This time around, I show you that it can be done using one low resistance, low inductance coil operating at low frequency. You didn't listen to me the last time, when I posted a video of a two coil axial setup demonstrating the exact same thing, I doubt you will pay attention this time around either.

IF this is all you are looking for....heaven help you, acceleration under load is not the solution, not even close. The effect is a teaching instrument, you are supposed to be learning something, to find out what that is, I recommend you stop copying and pasting and start formulating and asking the proper questions.

https://vimeo.com/151417537


Regards

I remember us discussing this a few years ago and the increased current draw

[Turion]

Information

erfinder,

The entire purpose of this thread was to come to an understanding of exactly what it takes to make a device speed up under load so that we can ALL build such devices. I would agree that that isn't all we need know, but for many folks, it is a beginning and the first step in the right direction. The sooner we understand how to make EVERY coil speed up under load, the better off we ALL are

I have devices that will speed up under load with a single coil, and it has nothing to do with the proximity of the coil to the rotor as you showed in your example. My coils are right NEXT to the rotor. The topology is completely different from your example. I know for a fact there is more than ONE way to skin this cat. Or at least a cat that looks an awful lot LIKE this one.

I have no trouble making a generating device with coils that speed up under load. There are at least four different coils I have wound that will speed up under load. Three of them have ONE thing in common, so I thought I had it figured out, they were all sub ohm, but the 4th was not. I ran different sized rotors with different numbers of magnets and they still sped up. Back to the drawing board. All these coils were conventional coils placed as closely as possible to a N/S rotor and/or a N/N rotor. Two of the sub ohm coils were iron core and one was air core. It isn't the HOW of making a coil speed up under load. I know HOW to wind one that will do that. (Just wind coils that are the same as any of the four I already have.) It's the WHY it speeds up under load I am interested in. If it isn't topology, it is something else. I noticed your coil was also sub ohm. Is it the topology, or is it that the coil was sub ohm? That's information you have and I do not.

Dave

[mbrownn]

Has it really been that long? I am sure you can appreciate the similarities between what I am demonstrating here and your own work. Are you still working on the Lockridge?

In a properly designed system, consumption increase is part of the feedback and gain mechanism. In such a system, consumption must increase. The increase results in a stronger motor, higher generator action, higher recovery, higher self and when applicable, mutual induction.


Regards

Yes it has. Yes there are similarities and yes i am although I dont think what I have done is relevant in this thread, its done differently: hence my silence.

i agree with your analysis.

@Turion I didnt use the method Erfinder used to cause acceleration under load, and I dont want to take this thread off at a tangent so I wont discuss it here. I do want to learn about what other methods have been used so I'm all ears.

If you are interested in my method I will explain it in another thread, although I have posted about it many times.

[Turion]

mbrown

As long as we are talking about how a coil speeds up under load, I don't see how posting your experience is a tangent. I think the idea here is to see what folks are doing, and what common ground we can find. It would be great if we could put together a chart that showed that if you are using #18 wire you need to have X number of strands X number of feet long, and possibly x distance from the rotor and your coil will speed up under load, and possibly a multiple of that number (strands and or length) if you want multiples in voltage or amps. Imagine how valuable that would be to people.

And we need to see that WITH that speed up in load there is a decrease in the amp draw used to run the device in the motoring phase.