Lockridge, or 2x Von Siemens ?

[marseye]

I did not not wire them like that, maybe you could try it.

I don't yet have any induction motor at hand, and though I'm currently quite broke and unemployed, I'll keep on trying to find one. But most DC motors nowadays have generally magnets.... An AC motor doesn't have brushes : I would have to make some, externally, which would need some DIY that I'm not yet equipped to conduct (could reveal expensive for my purse). For bugdet reasons, I'd prefer to work on drill type sized motor (and because of the needed budget for the copper too).

A 4 pole universal type motor or generator would be a good donor device to get the parts from.

Yep, I have a 12V 600w (I believe) DC one somewhere (PARVALUX PM-90L, or something like that), but they are 4 magnets. More than that : the brushes are fitted directly into the front lid's thickness... Hard, if not impossible to try to move them with my equipment. So, not much to await from it. I already have thought of contacting the british manufacture of the motor (PARVALUX) to see if they would be able to make a study motor configuration for me. But I'm affraid they're gonna ask me about magnetization strength, inductance, resistance and so on, and this is all unknown 'til there... And to ask them for movable brushes could reveal costly too.

Standard armatures are a continuous loop and we know there was something unusual about the Lockridge armature. I used a simple armature with separate coils and no interconnectivity. As well as being relatively easy to wind, these armatures have no compromises like standard Lap and Wave wound armatures. They produce strong fields and do not heat up as fast as looped armatures. They arc and build up high voltages that can be harvested. Standard armatures are very difficult to harvest power from as the currents find it easier to pass around the armature than to go through brushes to a separate circuit.

I agree with everything here. Except that I believe any arcing can't be harvested, but expenses all that could have been.

I will help if I can as it is always good to share knowledge so that it does not become lost or hidden in patents.

You're welcome wherever you can : sharing the knowledge (and the tests) could give away good keys for us all.


About my latest tests (as just previously described) : nothing new under the sun. I won't give up until I can make more tests with a more correct configuration : I have doubts about my results to eliminate before I resign about them. Here, a 4 adjustable poles and brushes at least would help. Electromagnetic field coils would be the must !

I really need to find a brushed induction motor, or a brushed generator now. Where the hell can I have one, and for free ????? (I'm just wondering out loud). Even used starter motors are not cheap, and most have only 2 brushes (I've already searched about BOSCH, and VolksWagen ones)...

[MadMack]

Phase shift?

You guys are much more knowledgeable about this than I am, but in the Lockridge device, I have a hunch that the hand made capacitor may be used for a 90 degree current phase shift and/or separation of AC from DC.

Has anyone considered this?

Mack

[mbrownn]

You guys are much more knowledgeable about this than I am, but in the Lockridge device, I have a hunch that the hand made capacitor may be used for a 90 degree current phase shift and/or separation of AC from DC.

Has anyone considered this?

Mack

Could you explain the 90 degree phase shift for me? I do know that a capacitor can be used to block DC while allowing AC to pass.

[marseye]

Motors studies

Just as a reminder for me (and everyone interested), here are explanations and formulas :
- All about motors (French)
- Types of DC Motor Separately Excited or Shunt Series Compound DC Motor

And this, about series and shunt motors models:

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGTf2fkurB0[/VIDEO]

For generators, see the alternators chapter here.Quite a bunch of principles to learn when browsing through links ! (search for the self excited types).

[MadMack]

Could you explain the 90 degree phase shift for me? I do know that a capacitor can be used to block DC while allowing AC to pass.

This is a pretty good explanation.

Capacitors and Alternating Current

Mack

[mbrownn]

Just as a reminder for me (and everyone interested), here are explanations and formulas :
- All about motors (French)
- Types of DC Motor Separately Excited or Shunt Series Compound DC Motor

And this, about series and shunt motors models:

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGTf2fkurB0[/VIDEO]

For generators, see the alternators chapter here.Quite a bunch of principles to learn when browsing through links ! (search for the self excited types).

Thanks for the instructional videos, they are always useful, especially when you get stuck as they can remind you of something you have overlooked.

@MadMack Thanks for the simple yet great explanation. I had completely forgotten about this so overlooked its usefulness.

[pault]

Thoughts about Siemens device

[Back to thinking about this stuff after a long layoff.]

Seeing this thread has got me thinking about the LD again - thanks.

Here are some random thoughts, in case they help anyone's thought process:

"The Berlin physicists, among them Magnus, Dove, Riess, Du Bois-Reymond, were extremely surprised when I laid before them in December 1866 such an exploding inductor, and showed that a small electromagnetic machine without battery and permanent magnets, which could be turned in one direction without effort and with any velocity, offered an almost insuperable resistance when turned in the opposite direction, and at the same time produced an electric current of such strength that its wire coils became quickly heated. Professor Magnus immediately offered to lay a description of my invention before the Berlin Academy of Sciences, but, on account of the Christmas holidays, this could only be done in the following year, on January 17, 1867."

- The Siemens device is extremely simple, yet it claims to posess self-induction (self-excitation).

- For a while, I was fooled into thinking that the device self-ran. After re-reading the above paragraph, I now think that it says that the wires became hot when you turned the armature in the "wrong" direction, and, that it could be spun freely when turned in the "right" direction (by a prime mover).

- Is more detail available? E.g. the patent or the society paper (preferably in English).

- The Siemens machine is essentially described in this military video, as long as I am correct in thinking that it is a DC generator. A DC generator has a split commutator and produces rectified waves. An AC generator has separate slip-rings and produces sine-waves.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQzUhORgKM[/VIDEO]

Points of interest:
8:24 ripples (rectified waves)
14:00 self-exciting, series and shunt configurations
24:00 CEMF

(For completeness, here is the AC lecture: [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LisefA_YuVg&ebc=ANyPxKp9nfBYviwWMi7klM7f9-NVkFMZ7VY1mY5Wmy_Tnh5K1myE7vooB0Dt7mh4crJggFcViSod aynrQ2wLuBJc9mJP7YwoPA[/VIDEO])


- Translations:

"Kommutator mit Bursten" = commutator with brushes.

"Doppel-T-Anker mit Wicklung" = double-T armature with windings

"Pohlschuh" = pole shoe

"Erregerwicklung" = field windings

- The armature is a long cylinder, with length-wise slots which house a single coil. Each end of the coil is connected to a commutator (i.e. two commutators, two brushes).

- The pole shoes are rectangular chunks of iron(?) with semi-circular slots cut in them to house the armature. One pole shoe on top and one on the bottom.

- Two "flat" rectangular coils (wound around iron(?) flat, rectangular plates), one on top and one on bottom, connected to the corresponding pole shoes. The two coils are in the same plane and might have some sort of mutual induction (transformer effect), but the coils are fairly far apart...

- We aren't shown how the coils are connected together (series, parallel?).

- I assume that the top pole is N and the bottom is S and that they don't flip, although they might vary in intensity.

- We aren't shown how the brushes/commutators are oriented. I can think of two extreme orientations with respect to the armature winding - 0 degrees (connection made when the armature coil is horizontal) and 90 degrees (connection made when the armature coild is vertical).

- The Siemens page claims that the armature is hand-cranked at first and that the Earth's magnetic field induces a current in the armature coil which results in energizing the electro-magnetic stator. (I.E. brushes are connected to the stator field coils in some manner). Does this imply that the machine would be more efficient if it were angled to intercept the Earth's field lines at the same angle as its self-excited lines? (Leedskalnin oriented his pages at 21-ish degrees and built Coral Castle in Florida at 25-ish degrees).

- The Siemens page claims that the device ran away and burned up an electroscope and a run of iron wire (generator wire, i.e. output connected to a battery).

- Two mechanical brushes connected to a single (armature) coil form a fwbr (full wave bridge rectifier). You get two semi-sinusoids (in the same direction) for every 360 degree rotation of the armature. These semi-sinusoids might be considered to be "pulses" (albeit rounded), or they could be smoothed into DC via a capacitor.

- The orientation of the commutator / brushes with respect to the armature coil determines the switch-over point and magnetic field collapse. In (what I call) 0 degree mode the commutator and the coil are in the orientation ( - ). (ASCII art. The dash is the cross section of the coil). As the coil spins (clockwise, say), it delivers a +ve current into the left commutator and a -ve current into the right. When the coil reaches 90 degrees, it reaches the break and delivers no current to either commutator. At this point, the magnetic field in the coil collapses into the opposing commutator as soon as the coil goes beyond 90 degrees (and makes contact with the opposing commutator). This commutator sees a spike followed by a gradual buildup of current for another half-turn. OTOH the 90 degree orientation ( | ) results in a smooth hand-over - the coil builds up a current to maximum then decreases the current, and, at the switch-over point has zero current. No spike, just a semi-sinusoidal current-increase followed by decrease. [I think. This needs to be verified by experiment.]

- A capacitor has many functions in a circuit. A capacitor can (1) sink spikes, converting them to usable energy, (2) smooth a pulsed waveform converting it to DC and (3) be coupled with an inductor to form an LC tank circuit (a bandpass filter) which determines the sweet-spot for a circuit, and, which limits run-away behavior (by "falling off" beyond a certain frequency).

[mbrownn]

I don't yet have any induction motor at hand, and though I'm currently quite broke and unemployed, I'll keep on trying to find one.

Me too

But most DC motors nowadays have generally magnets.... An AC motor doesn't have brushes :

A universal motor can run on AC or DC has brushes and no magnets. Starter motors are a good example.

, I have a 12V 600w (I believe) DC one somewhere (PARVALUX PM-90L, or something like that), but they are 4 magnets. More than that : the brushes are fitted directly into the front lid's thickness... Hard, if not impossible to try to move them with my equipment. So, not much to await from it. I already have thought of contacting the british manufacture of the motor (PARVALUX) to see if they would be able to make a study motor configuration for me. But I'm affraid they're gonna ask me about magnetization strength, inductance, resistance and so on, and this is all unknown 'til there... And to ask them for movable brushes could reveal costly too.

Im not familiar with that motor but you are right, manufacturers are not interested in modifications and to produce one off's is very expensive.

I agree with everything here. Except that I believe any arcing can't be harvested, but expenses all that could have been.

It can and its not so hard but to make a really good job you need some machine shop work.

Electromagnetic field coils would be the must !

I believe so but there is a DC alternative that could use magnets that I have posted about on the http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ckridge+device

I really need to find a brushed induction motor, or a brushed generator now. Where the hell can I have one, and for free ????? (I'm just wondering out loud). Even used starter motors are not cheap, and most have only 2 brushes (I've already searched about BOSCH, and VolksWagen ones)...

Get a 4 pole universal motor.

[mbrownn]

- The Siemens device is extremely simple, yet it claims to posess self-induction (self-excitation).

I think self excitation is almost inevitable with simple machines like this provided the output of the field coil is fed in an appropriate way to the armature. Be it the earth's magnetic field or residual magnetism, a small current will pass which then generates a bigger current and so on. My devices use this principal amongst others.

- For a while, I was fooled into thinking that the device self-ran. After re-reading the above paragraph, I now think that it says that the wires became hot when you turned the armature in the "wrong" direction, and, that it could be spun freely when turned in the "right" direction (by a prime mover).

- Is more detail available? E.g. the patent or the society paper (preferably in English).

- The Siemens machine is essentially described in this military video, as long as I am correct in thinking that it is a DC generator. A DC generator has a split commutator and produces rectified waves. An AC generator has separate slip-rings and produces sine-waves.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQzUhORgKM[/VIDEO]

Points of interest:
8:24 ripples (rectified waves)
14:00 self-exciting, series and shunt configurations
24:00 CEMF

(For completeness, here is the AC lecture: [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LisefA_YuVg&ebc=ANyPxKp9nfBYviwWMi7klM7f9-NVkFMZ7VY1mY5Wmy_Tnh5K1myE7vooB0Dt7mh4crJggFcViSod aynrQ2wLuBJc9mJP7YwoPA[/VIDEO])


- Translations:

"Kommutator mit Bursten" = commutator with brushes.

"Doppel-T-Anker mit Wicklung" = double-T armature with windings

"Pohlschuh" = pole shoe

"Erregerwicklung" = field windings

- The armature is a long cylinder, with length-wise slots which house a single coil. Each end of the coil is connected to a commutator (i.e. two commutators, two brushes).

- The pole shoes are rectangular chunks of iron(?) with semi-circular slots cut in them to house the armature. One pole shoe on top and one on the bottom.

- Two "flat" rectangular coils (wound around iron(?) flat, rectangular plates), one on top and one on bottom, connected to the corresponding pole shoes. The two coils are in the same plane and might have some sort of mutual induction (transformer effect), but the coils are fairly far apart...

- We aren't shown how the coils are connected together (series, parallel?).

- I assume that the top pole is N and the bottom is S and that they don't flip, although they might vary in intensity.

- We aren't shown how the brushes/commutators are oriented. I can think of two extreme orientations with respect to the armature winding - 0 degrees (connection made when the armature coil is horizontal) and 90 degrees (connection made when the armature coild is vertical).

- The Siemens page claims that the armature is hand-cranked at first and that the Earth's magnetic field induces a current in the armature coil which results in energizing the electro-magnetic stator. (I.E. brushes are connected to the stator field coils in some manner). Does this imply that the machine would be more efficient if it were angled to intercept the Earth's field lines at the same angle as its self-excited lines? (Leedskalnin oriented his pages at 21-ish degrees and built Coral Castle in Florida at 25-ish degrees).

- The Siemens page claims that the device ran away and burned up an electroscope and a run of iron wire (generator wire, i.e. output connected to a battery).

I think they are saying it produces a large current with no separate input to the armature. Self exciting generators will burn up if shorted and so require a minimal resistance built in to prevent this. I propose not building in the minimal resistance.

- Two mechanical brushes connected to a single (armature) coil form a fwbr (full wave bridge rectifier). You get two semi-sinusoids (in the same direction) for every 360 degree rotation of the armature. These semi-sinusoids might be considered to be "pulses" (albeit rounded), or they could be smoothed into DC via a capacitor.

- The orientation of the commutator / brushes with respect to the armature coil determines the switch-over point and magnetic field collapse. In (what I call) 0 degree mode the commutator and the coil are in the orientation ( - ). (ASCII art. The dash is the cross section of the coil). As the coil spins (clockwise, say), it delivers a +ve current into the left commutator and a -ve current into the right. When the coil reaches 90 degrees, it reaches the break and delivers no current to either commutator. At this point, the magnetic field in the coil collapses into the opposing commutator as soon as the coil goes beyond 90 degrees (and makes contact with the opposing commutator). This commutator sees a spike followed by a gradual buildup of current for another half-turn. OTOH the 90 degree orientation ( | ) results in a smooth hand-over - the coil builds up a current to maximum then decreases the current, and, at the switch-over point has zero current. No spike, just a semi-sinusoidal current-increase followed by decrease. [I think. This needs to be verified by experiment.]

- A capacitor has many functions in a circuit. A capacitor can (1) sink spikes, converting them to usable energy, (2) smooth a pulsed waveform converting it to DC and (3) be coupled with an inductor to form an LC tank circuit (a bandpass filter) which determines the sweet-spot for a circuit, and, which limits run-away behavior (by "falling off" beyond a certain frequency).

The self exciting generator principal is often overlooked as a potential for producing excess electrical power and I agree that alone it cant. But as a part of a more sophisticated device, this trait is very useful.

Get a Universal motor and connect a low resistance load across its supply wires and then spin it up. You should find that you can detect a voltage and current as it is acting as a self exciting generator. The reason you have to spin it very fast is because the residual magnetism has been all but eliminated with the laminated rotor and stator, so high speed is required to get it to initially generate. The next problem is high winding resistance resulting in the poor efficiency of the generated output. If we use a starter motor we eliminate the high resistance and some of the residual magnetism remains, but because of large air gaps and high friction it still isn’t a great generator at 35% efficient. If we use a VW/bosch generator the efficiency is much higher. Do you see where this is going?

[pault]

Do you see where this is going?

Actually, it would be safer to assume that I don't see where this is going...

If you don't mind, tell me.

[pault]

I've been reviewing the Lockridge videos, trying to get back up to speed.

Lockridge apparently used (only) Delco-Remy generators to duplicate the Bosch device.

Here's 1944 service manual for Delco-Remy generators, etc.

http://www.easy39th.com/files/TM_9-1...my%29_1944.pdf

One of the videos shows a hand-drawn diagram of the LD with two external black boxes. The above manual shows little boxes containing a couple of electro-mechanical relays. Someone said that the LD made a clicking noise when it ran. Mechanical relays fit that bill.

The videos say (1) that the armature was not modified (although the stator coils were moved) and (2) one winding of the tri-filar coil acted like an AC transformer to light the 300W lamps.

The armature is a many-pole DC generator with split commutators. This should produce DC (not AC) with fairly small ripple. Hence, I conclude that transformer effect could not have been used in the original LD. Am I missing something?

[bistander]

Delco Remy armatures

Cool old service manual document. Love those diagrams. I see both 2-pole and 4-pole generator armatures in there. And the armature has one commutator. The comm has multiple segments (or bars), like maybe 30 to 40. Output would be DC with a ripple frequency equal to the number of comm segments divided by number of pole pairs times the RPM/60. Commutator and brushes act as a rectifier.

Interesting that it shows a 2-pole generator having 3 brushes. The third brush able to pick off a lower voltage, I guess. Further on it gets into cranking motors showing 4-pole and 6-pole versions. Looking like stuff I worked with years ago.

bi

[wantomake]

4 pole seems best

Cool old service manual document. Love those diagrams. I see both 2-pole and 4-pole generator armatures in there. And the armature has one commutator. The comm has multiple segments (or bars), like maybe 30 to 40. Output would be DC with a ripple frequency equal to the number of comm segments divided by number of pole pairs times the RPM/60. Commutator and brushes act as a rectifier.

Interesting that it shows a 2-pole generator having 3 brushes. The third brush able to pick off a lower voltage, I guess. Further on it gets into cranking motors showing 4-pole and 6-pole versions. Looking like stuff I worked with years ago.

bi

Thanks bi,
The pdf is cool indeed. I'm trying to find the model with four poles and brushes to experiment with. But no luck so far. If only just the end cap for the brushes would be good start.

I've gone through several 50's 12v delco remy generators to get almost exact replication J. Bedini shows in his video. It did motor good but pulled 3 to 4 amps from two deep cycle batteries. The brush holder setup i fabricated was not accurate and needed constant adjustments. Therefore having a good end cap brush holder would put me back to a good testing point.

As we all do the project got put aside and forgotten. The capacitor/coil I spent weeks of time and learned much. But it too got assimilated back into other projects.

Seeing your experience with these, do you know the model number with the four pole generator? Never seen one in this area I live in.

Thanks again,
wantomake
@ Hiwater, do you know this model number or type?

[bistander]

Seeing your experience with these, do you know the model number with the four pole generator? Never seen one in this area I live in.

Don't have any model numbers. Have you been looking at military surplus? Most of my experience was with motors from Delco competitors. Good luck.

bi

[marseye]

Hi Pals,

Thank you all for the quality of your contributions (for once : no trolls in sight... up to now. And that feels so good !)


Just a quick note, talking about "mechanical relays".

I've been reviewing the Lockridge videos, trying to get back up to speed.

Lockridge apparently used (only) Delco-Remy generators to duplicate the Bosch device.

Here's 1944 service manual for Delco-Remy generators, etc.

http://www.easy39th.com/files/TM_9-1...my%29_1944.pdf

One of the videos shows a hand-drawn diagram of the LD with two external black boxes. The above manual shows little boxes containing a couple of electro-mechanical relays. Someone said that the LD made a clicking noise when it ran. Mechanical relays fit that bill.
(...)

That reminded me of Leeskalnin : according to the goldmine channel of the Youtube user "Made by One Man", it's now demonstrated that his wheels were driven with impulses, through "mechanical relays" (the user says that one of these relays is kept in the museum).

Here, the Leedskalnin's wheel in action :

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTtQBLIx9ok[/VIDEO]


Here, a quarrying method under a tripod:

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N8ZfFXkblA[/VIDEO]


But more generally, this channel demonstrates too the many other "secrets" of Leedskalnin (its tripods, and what electric equipments which went under, and were energized from the main timing wheel's master relay bursts). After one sees this, it all becomes very clear !!! This channel is all a must see, very clever and demystifying (see the older videos, as they were the first reason for the channel): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsO...sKLZHBehUt6Iig

NOTA : such few viewers for these videos... That's a shame, since it seems to me that it's of the utmost importance ! But that may explain why it's still online ! Copy, copy, copy, before it's too late "again" (so many interesting videos have already disappeared in the past)...


Now, we must essentially question ourselves about the true virtues of the sharp energizing burst pointed out since long now by John Bedini, Joseph Newman, The Keppe motor (Newman simpler variant), and so many men before them (and more : Edward Leedskalnin now demonstrated).

We have to experiment more and more, because the truth is still out there !



ps : if the user "Made by One Man" (Scott RUSSEL) is around : thanks a thousand times for you are ! You are a very rare person, my best prayers for your overall wellness ! Stay safe !